[ { "turn_id": 0, "start_sec": 103.455, "end_sec": 129.57, "start_hms": "00:01:43", "end_hms": "00:02:09", "speaker_name": "Sergeant-at-Arms", "speaker_role": "Sergeant-at-Arms", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 0, "text_clean": "Quiet, please. Quiet, please. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to today's New York City Council Committee of the Whole. At this time, we ask that you silence all cell phones and electronic devices to minimize disruptions throughout today's proceedings. If you have any questions, please get the attention of one of the sergeant at arms. If you wish to testify, please see the sergeant at arms outside in the rotunda. At no time throughout today's proceeding are you to approach the dais. We thank you for your kind cooperation. Speaker, we are ready to begin.", "text_unedited": "Quiet, please. Quiet, please. Good morning, ladies and gentlemen, and welcome to today's New York City Council Committee of the Whole. At this time, we ask that you silence all cell phones and electronic devices to minimize disruptions throughout today's proceedings. If you have any questions, please get the attention of one of the sergeant at arms. If you wish to testify, please see the sergeant at arms outside in the rotunda. At no time throughout today's proceeding are you to approach the dais. We thank you for your kind cooperation. Speaker, we are ready to begin." }, { "turn_id": 1, "start_sec": 130.69, "end_sec": 532.125, "start_hms": "00:02:10", "end_hms": "00:08:52", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Good morning, everyone. We welcome everyone to the chambers. We're thrilled to see a packed hall today. Today's hearing is truly no ordinary hearing because today we are convening the New York City Council's Committee of the Whole, which is the entire city council. We will delve into a deep discussion about our ongoing technological revolution, a revolution that at present is igniting incredible scientific and medical innovation and breakthroughs, but simultaneously raises serious existential safety concerns. In the past few weeks, we've heard extremely concerning reports regarding artificial intelligence, reports that have appeared with increasing frequency and that highlight the potentially catastrophic dangers of this technology. New Yorkers' concerns stem from the disturbing cyberattacks committed by rogue AI agents, but also from extremely dire statements made by leaders of the very companies who are developing this technology. The dialogue and the legislative process we are initiating today is particularly important given the lack of any regulation by the federal government whose actions thus far have been limited to an executive order about what we should call this technology and a pact with leading AI firms focusing on self regulation. Our hope and indeed our belief is that today's hearing will not only allow us to develop effective AI regulations here in our city, but that it will spur meaningful conversation and action in other jurisdictions, especially on the federal level. Our goals in today's hearing are straightforward, to better understand the potential threats, dangers, and liability posed by AI development, to identify the benefits that responsible AI development brings to New York City government and to its residents, and to discuss a slate of city council bills which seek to provide responsible safety guardrails for AI. These bills include a wide range of both proactive and defensive measures from legislation that requires artificial intelligence systems to pass a third party validation that is free from conflicts of interest and incentivizes whistleblowers who come forward with a portion of the penalties assessed to proposals focusing on emergency preparedness to be able to identify system breaches and to plan how the city will respond if such a breach occurs. To achieve these goals, we've requested the participation of five firms leading the research and development of AI, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Meta, and SpaceX AI. Today, four of them will be testifying under oath before the council, not simply for New Yorkers, but for the entire world to hear. We will indeed be the first legislative body to secure testimony from these companies under oath in the wake of these latest disturbing reports. SpaceX AI, however, is not here at all in direct violation of the subpoena that we issued last week, and we are pursuing that subpoena in court. We will also hear from a number of city agencies to receive their perspectives on these issues and on the bills that we have proposed thus far. We intend to work constructively with the administration to ensure that any policies being drafted, amended, adopted, and enforced will work effectively to serve New Yorkers. And we'll also hear from whistleblowers, industry representatives, experts, and academics who we've been in touch with since we announced this hearing. And, of course, we look forward to hearing from any member of the public who's invited to provide testimony about these topics. I want to be very clear about our intent. This hearing is not about stifling innovation. New York City is fast becoming the tech and AI capital of the world, home to nearly 400,000 jobs in that sector and some of companies most consequentially shaping the future of artificial intelligence, and that's something we should celebrate. We welcome and appreciate how AI has accelerated scientific discovery, advanced medical treatments, boosted economic development, and help governments and businesses deliver services more effectively while reducing costs and rooting out waste and fraud. When companies are developing technology with the potential to fundamentally reshape our economy, our workforce, our public safety, and our daily lives, and when leaders of that very industry are themselves warning government about its risks, the public deserves answers and solutions. So the true intent of this hearing is to ensure that innovation happens responsibly, that the government does its job to protect the public as the technology advances, and that the protections at municipal level can potentially serve as a national model. I spent a large portion of my life being a regulatory attorney. The idea that artificial intelligence is going to self regulate defies all reason. We don't ask the airline industry to self regulate. That's why we have the FAA. And if there is an accident, there's an independent body to investigate that. We don't ask financial firms to self regulate. We have the SEC and other agencies as well. We don't ask the pharmaceutical companies to self regulate either. That's, of course, why we have the FDA. So we shouldn't ask AI companies to self regulate either. The spirit we seek to embody in the council's approach to AI is well illustrated in the words of tech journalist Karen Hao in her book Empire of AI. She writes, the future of AI, the shape that this technology takes, is inextricably tied to our future. The question of how to govern AI then is really a question about how to ensure we make our future better, not worse. New York has always embraced the future. The council is going to make sure we are prepared for it too. And it's now my pleasure to turn the microphone over to our technology chair, Council Member Carmen De La Rosa. Thank you, Speaker Menin. Good morning, everyone. I'm Carmen De La Rosa. I am the chair of the committee on technology.", "text_unedited": "Good morning, everyone. We welcome everyone to the chambers. We're thrilled to see a packed hall today. Today's hearing is truly no ordinary hearing because today we are convening the New York City Council's Committee of the Whole, which is the entire city council. We will delve into a deep discussion about our ongoing technological revolution, a revolution that at present is igniting incredible scientific and medical innovation and breakthroughs, but simultaneously raises serious existential safety concerns. In the past few weeks, we've heard extremely concerning reports regarding artificial intelligence, reports that have appeared with increasing frequency and that highlight the potentially catastrophic dangers of this technology. New Yorkers' concerns stem from the disturbing cyberattacks committed by rogue AI agents, but also from extremely dire statements made by leaders of the very companies who are developing this technology. The dialogue and the legislative process we are initiating today is particularly important given the lack of any regulation by the federal government whose actions thus far have been limited to an executive order about what we should call this technology and a pact with leading AI firms focusing on self regulation. Our hope and indeed our belief is that today's hearing will not only allow us to develop effective AI regulations here in our city, but that it will spur meaningful conversation and action in other jurisdictions, especially on the federal level. Our goals in today's hearing are straightforward, to better understand the potential threats, dangers, and liability posed by AI development, to identify the benefits that responsible AI development brings to New York City government and to its residents, and to discuss a slate of city council bills which seek to provide responsible safety guardrails for AI. These bills include a wide range of both proactive and defensive measures from legislation that requires artificial intelligence systems to pass a third party validation that is free from conflicts of interest and incentivizes whistleblowers who come forward with a portion of the penalties assessed to proposals focusing on emergency preparedness to be able to identify system breaches and to plan how the city will respond if such a breach occurs. To achieve these goals, we've requested the participation of five firms leading the research and development of AI, OpenAI, Anthropic, Google Meta, and SpaceX AI. Today, four of them will be testifying under oath before the council, not simply for New Yorkers, but for the entire world to hear. We will indeed be the first legislative body to secure testimony from these companies under oath in the wake of these latest disturbing reports. SpaceXi, however, is not here at all in direct violation of the subpoena that we issued last week, and we are pursuing that subpoena in court. We will also hear from a number of city agencies to receive their perspectives on these issues and on the bills that we have proposed thus far. We intend to work constructively with the administration to ensure that any policies being drafted, amended, adopted, and enforced will work effectively to serve New Yorkers. And we'll also hear from whistleblowers, industry representatives, experts, and academics who we've been in touch with since we announced this hearing. And, of course, we look forward to hearing from any member of the public who's invited to provide testimony about these topics. I wanna be very clear about our intent. This hearing is not about stifling innovation. New York City is fast becoming the tech and AI capital of the world, home to nearly 400,000 jobs in that sector and some of companies most consequentially shaping the future of artificial intelligence, and that's something we should celebrate. We welcome and appreciate how AI has accelerated scientific discovery, advanced medical treatments, boosted economic development, and help governments and businesses deliver services more effectively while reducing costs and rooting out waste and fraud. When companies are developing technology with the potential to fundamentally reshape our economy, our workforce, our public safety, and our daily lives, and when leaders of that very industry are themselves warning government about its risks, the public deserves answers and solutions. So the true intent of this hearing is to ensure that innovation happens responsibly, that the government does its job to protect the public as the technology advances, and that the protections at municipal level can potentially serve as a national model. I spent a large portion of my life being a regulatory attorney. The idea that artificial intelligence is going to self regulate defies all reason. We don't ask the airline industry to self regulate. That's why we have the FAA. And if there is an accident, there's an independent body to investigate that. We don't ask financial firms to self regulate. We have the SEC and other agencies as well. We don't ask the pharmaceutical companies to self regulate either. That's, of course, why we have the FDA. So we shouldn't ask AI companies to self regulate either. The spirit we seek to embody in the council's approach to AI is well illustrated in the words of tech journalist Karen Ho in her book Empire of AI. She writes, the future of AI, the shape that this technology takes, is inextricably inextricably tied to our future. The question of how to govern AI then is really a question about how to ensure we make our future better, not worse. New York has always embraced the future. The council is gonna make sure we are prepared for it too. And it's now my pleasure to turn the microphone over to our technology chair, council member Carmen de la Rosa. Thank you, speaker Menon. Good morning, everyone. I'm Carmen Della Rosa. I am the chair of the committee on technology." }, { "turn_id": 2, "start_sec": 532.365, "end_sec": 851.91, "start_hms": "00:08:52", "end_hms": "00:14:11", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Today, I am pleased to join Speaker Menin and my colleagues as we cochair this hearing by the Committee of the Whole examining the risk posed by artificial intelligence. I am incredibly grateful to all who took the time to join us to discuss this important topic, industry representatives, experts, elected officials, colleagues, agencies, our brothers and sisters in labor, and especially the many New Yorkers who have signed up to testify and have submitted testimony to put their voice on the public record. Today should act as a foundation for openness in a discussion that has escalated to alarm, confusion, and fear, and it needs resolution. Artificial intelligence is advancing rapidly and becoming increasingly integrated into everyday life. In just a few years, we have seen AI evolve from algorithmic tools that analyze data, make predictions, and support decision making into generative AI systems that can create text, code, sounds, images. More recently, Agentic AI has emerged enabling AI agents to take actions on a person's behalf. AI has a tremendous potential and can be a powerful tool for efficiency, innovation, and productivity. At the same time, it introduces significant risks, including exacerbating biases, surveillance concerns, breaches, negative public health outcomes, violence, and disparity. These are concerns that may become even more serious as AI agents become more capable. When we face serious concerns or challenges, the appropriate response is to address them, not to postpone them. By the city council under the leadership of Speaker Menin, today, we respond to some of these concerns. We will be hearing the following bills today. My bill, Intro 161, in relation to requiring reporting on the impact of algorithmic tools on city employees and changes in employment responsibilities due to algorithmic tools. Intro 504, sponsored by Deputy Speaker Williams in relation to prohibiting the unauthorized depiction of public officials by artificial intelligence. A preconsidered introduction sponsored by Speaker Menin in relation to third party validation and shutdown capabilities of artificial intelligence models. A preconsidered introduction by Speaker Menin in relation to civilian enforcement and artificial intelligence violations. A preconsidered introduction sponsored by Majority Whip Kamillah Hanks in relation to requiring reporting and public disclosure of artificial intelligence safety incidents concerning city contracts, A preconsidered introduction sponsored by Council Member Virginia Maloney in relation to establishing a private cause of action for certain harms arising from third party misuse of artificial intelligence models. A preconsidered introduction sponsored by Council Member Frank Morano in relation to chatbot data privacy, security, and transparency, a preconsidered introduction sponsored by Council Member Chi Ossé in relation to requiring the creation of an artificial intelligence model emergency response plan, Not finally, one more. Preconsidered introduction sponsored by Council Member Kevin Riley in relation to city contractors and subcontractors posting information concerning whistleblower protections and clarifying whistleblower protections for reporting conduct related to the use and development of artificial intelligence models. And finally, a pre considered introduction sponsored by Council Member Carl Wilson in relation to requiring certain disclosures and prohibiting deceptive representations in the promotion. While we work to protect people from risks associated with AI, we must not overlook the digital divide in our city. Our city is full of opportunity, yet some residents still lack reliable affordable broadband access. Some people do not yet know how to use AI tools, while others cannot even afford Internet connection needed to access them in the first place. We cannot seek to benefit from innovation while leaving some New Yorkers behind or at its mercy. Technology being used by New Yorkers should be built for them. This is an opportunity to also explore standing up infrastructure so that our communities can become AI literate. I look forward to hearing from the industry and experts about this technology and how it is impacting our city. What safeguards exist? What solutions are possible? As we consider how to govern around AI, I also look forward to working with our state and federal partners to ensure that New Yorkers fully benefit from the advancement of AI without compromising our safety and privacy. I'd like to take a moment to thank the technology committee staff and all of the staff in the city council, but most especially our legislative council, Irene Bayofsky, and our policy analyst, Eric Brown, as well as my team chief of staff, James Burke, Hiba Imad, Frey Familia, and the speaker's team for working countless hours to put this hearing together. I now turn it back to Speaker Menin. Thank you so much, Chair De La Rosa. We are now going to start with our whistleblower panel. In person, I'm going to first call Jacob Coxon to come to the stand.", "text_unedited": "Today, I am pleased to join speaker Menon and my colleagues as we cochair this hearing by the Committee of the Whole examining the risk posed by artificial intelligence. I am incredibly grateful to all who took the time to join us to discuss this important topic, industry representatives, experts, elected officials, colleagues, agencies, our brothers and sisters in labor, and especially the many New Yorkers who have signed up to testify and have submitted testimony to put their voice on the public record. Today should act as a foundation for openness in a discussion that has escalated to alarm, confusion, and fear, and it needs resolution. Artificial intelligence is advancing rapidly and becoming increasingly integrated into everyday life. In just a few years, we have seen AI evolve from algorithmic tools that analyze data, make predictions, and support decision making into generative AI systems that can create text, code, sounds, images. More recently, AgenTik AI has emerged enabling AI agents to take actions on a person's behalf. AI has a tremendous potential and can be a powerful tool for efficiency, innovation, and productivity. At the same time, it introduces significant risks, including exacerbating biases, surveillance concerns, breaches, negative public health outcomes, violence, and disparity. These are concerns that may become even more serious as AI agents become more capable. When we face serious concerns or challenges, the appropriate response is to address them, not to postpone them. In an effort by city councils... By the city council under this... The leadership of speaker Menon, today, we respond to some of these concerns. We will be hearing the following bills today. My bill, intro one sixty one, in relation to requiring reporting on the impact of algorithmic tools on city employees and changes in employment responsibilities due to algorithmic tools. Intro five zero four, sponsored by deputy speaker Williams in relation to prohibiting the unauthorized depiction of public officials by artificial intelligence. A preconsidered introduction sponsored by Speaker Menon in relation to third party validation and shutdown capabilities of artificial intelligence models. A preconsidered introduction by Speaker Menon in relation to civilian enforcement and artificial intelligence violations. A preconsidered introduction sponsored by majority whip Camilla Hanks in relation to requiring reporting and public disclosure of artificial intelligence safety incidents concerning city contracts, A preconsidered introduction sponsored by council member Virginia Maloney in relation to establishing a private cause of action for certain harms arising from third party misuse of artificial intelligence models. A preconsidered introduction sponsored by council member Frank Marano in relation to chat box data privacy, security, and transparency, a preconsidered introduction sponsored by council member Chiyo Sei in relation to requiring the creation of an artificial intelligence model emergency response plan, And finally... Not finally, one more. Preconsidered introduction sponsored by council member Kevin Riley in relation to city contractors and subcontractors posting information concerning whistleblower protections and clarifying whistleblower protections for reporting conduct related to the use and development of artificial intelligence models. And finally, a pre considered introduction sponsored by council member Carl Wilson in relation to requiring certain disclosures and prohibiting deceptive representations in the promotion. While we work to protect people from risks associated with AI, we must not overlook the digital divide in our city. Our city is full of opportunity, yet some residents still lack reliable affordable broadband access. Some people do not yet know how to use AI tools, while others cannot even afford Internet connection needed to access them in the first place. We cannot seek to benefit from innovation while leaving some New Yorkers behind or at its mercy. Technology being used by New Yorkers should be built for them. This is an opportunity to also explore standing up infrastructure so that our communities can become AI literate. I look forward to hearing from the industry and experts about this technology and how it is impacting our city. What safeguards exist? What solutions are possible? As we consider how to govern around AI, I also look forward to working with our state and federal partners to ensure that New Yorkers fully benefit from the advancement of a out... Of AI without compromising our safety and privacy. I'd like to take a moment to thank the technology committee staff and all of the staff in the city council, but most especially our legislative council, Irene Bayofsky, and our policy analyst, Eric Brown, as well as my team chief of staff, James Burke, Hiba Imad, Frey Familia, and the speaker's team for working countless hours to put this hearing together. I now turn it back to speaker Menon. Thank you so much, chair De La Rosa. We are now gonna start with our whistleblower panel. In person, I'm gonna first call Jacob Coxon to come to the stand." }, { "turn_id": 3, "start_sec": 852.55, "end_sec": 937.89, "start_hms": "00:14:12", "end_hms": "00:15:37", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And then online, we have Daniel Kokotajlo and Alex Turner, who are both remote. As they're getting ready, I just want to say a word about this panel. These three panelists have all worked inside leading AI companies, and all have chosen to speak publicly about the risks of advanced AI. So here with us, as I mentioned in person, is Jacob Coxon, a former researcher at OpenAI and Anthropic, where he worked on the development of frontier AI systems. He left Anthropic last month with dire warnings that AI is advancing without adequate safeguards to prevent catastrophic damage. Joining us remotely is Daniel Kokotajlo, executive director of the AI Futures Project, OpenAI governance researcher. Also remote is Alex Turner, an AI control researcher formerly at Google DeepMind, now working on keeping advanced systems under human control. In September 2026, he publicly stated that preventing catastrophic harm from Frontier AI had been part of his work at DeepMind. And I want to note, the council has issued a subpoena for Mr. Turner's appearance, and we deeply thank him for being here. So I'm going to, first of all, turn it over to committee counsel to swear these three witnesses in. So", "text_unedited": "And then online, we have Daniel Cocotilo and Alex Turner, who are both remote. I wanna say... As they're getting ready, I just wanna say a word about this panel. Our... These three panelists have all worked inside leading AI companies, and all have chosen to speak publicly about the risks of advanced AI. So here with us, as I mentioned in person, is Jacob Coxon, a former researcher at OpenAI and Anthropic, where he worked on the development of frontier AI systems. He left Anthropic last month with dire warnings that AI is advancing without adequate safeguards to prevent catastrophic damage. Joining us remotely is Daniel Cocotilo, executive director of the AI Futures Project, OpenAI governance researcher. Also remote is Alex Turner, an AI control researcher formerly at Google DeepMind, now working on keeping advanced systems under human control. In September 2026, he publicly stated that preventing catastrophic harm from Frontier AI had been part of his work at DeepMind. And I wanna note, the council has issued a subpoena for mister Turner's appearance, and we deeply thank him for being here. So I'm going to, first of all, turn it over to committee counsel to swear these three witnesses in. So" }, { "turn_id": 4, "start_sec": 940.69, "end_sec": 952.975, "start_hms": "00:15:40", "end_hms": "00:15:52", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "For each of the witnesses, can you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in your testimony before this committee and to respond honestly to Council Member questions. Please respond one at a time.", "text_unedited": "for each of the witnesses, can you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in your testimony before this committee and to respond honestly to council member questions. Please respond one at a time." }, { "turn_id": 5, "start_sec": 953.775, "end_sec": 956.575, "start_hms": "00:15:53", "end_hms": "00:15:56", "speaker_name": "Unidentified Witness", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "Yes. Yes. Yes.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Yes. Yes." }, { "turn_id": 6, "start_sec": 956.895, "end_sec": 957.775, "start_hms": "00:15:56", "end_hms": "00:15:57", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 5, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 7, "start_sec": 959.295, "end_sec": 963.78, "start_hms": "00:15:59", "end_hms": "00:16:03", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "You want to do the next? Okay. And just briefly, we're just going to, recognize", "text_unedited": "You wanna do the next? Okay. And just briefly, we're just going to, recognize" }, { "turn_id": 8, "start_sec": 963.78, "end_sec": 1012.435, "start_hms": "00:16:03", "end_hms": "00:16:52", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "All colleagues who are here. Thank you so much, Speaker Menin. We've been joined by a number of our colleagues. As you can see here, Council Members Ariola, Avilés, Banks, Brewer, Brooks-Powers, Minority Leader Carr, Dinowitz, Encarnacion, Epstein, Felder, Hanif, Hudson, Joseph, Krishnan, Council Members Lee, Lewis, Maloney, Marte, Mealy, Morano, Narcisse, Nurse, Jose, Council Members Riley, Council Members Jay Sanchez, and p Sanchez, Council Member Schulman, Council Member Thomas Henry, Ung, majority... Sorry. Sorry. Deputy Speaker Williams, Council Member Wilson, Council Member Won, Council Member Wong, Council Member Zhuang, and Public Advocate Williams.", "text_unedited": "all colleagues who are here. Thank you so much, speaker Menon. We've been joined by a number of our colleagues. As you can see here, council members Ariola, Aviles, Banks, Brewer, Brooks Powers, minority leader Carr, Dinowitz, Encarnacion, Epstein, Felder, Hanif, Hudson, Joseph, Krishnan, council members Lee, Lewis, Maloney, Marte, Mealy, Marano, Narcisse, Nurse, Jose, council members Riley, council members Jay Sanchez, and p Sanchez, council member Schulman, council member Thomas Henry, Ung, majority... Sorry. Sorry. Deputy speaker Williams, council member Wilson, council member Wan, council member Wong, council member Shuang, and public advocate Williams." }, { "turn_id": 9, "start_sec": 1012.595, "end_sec": 1048.86, "start_hms": "00:16:52", "end_hms": "00:17:28", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, and we'll recognize additional colleagues as I join. So the first two questions I have are for you, Mr. Coxon. And thank you again. We so deeply appreciate you being here, and we appreciate your courage and bravery in coming forward with these warnings. You work to develop increasingly capable frontier AI systems, and you have since warned that the industry is, quote, racing straight to self improving superintelligence and gambling with our lives, end quote. What did you see inside these companies that convinced you the risks were this serious and that development was outpacing the safeguards?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, and we'll recognize additional colleagues as I join. So the first two questions I have are for you, mister Coxson. And thank you again. We so deeply appreciate you being here, and we appreciate your courage and bravery in coming forward with these warnings. You work to develop increasingly capable frontier AI systems, and you have since warned that the industry is, quote, racing straight to self improving superintelligence and gambling with our lives, end quote. What did you see inside these companies that convinced you the risks were this serious and that development was outpacing the safeguards?" }, { "turn_id": 10, "start_sec": 1050.06, "end_sec": 1121.405, "start_hms": "00:17:30", "end_hms": "00:18:41", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "Good morning. Thanks for having me here. Yeah. I'm Jacob Coxon. So until a few weeks ago, I was a capabilities researcher at Anthropic. And before that, I also worked at OpenAI. I guess the two things I saw that made me scared, the first is the fact that we do not know how to control any AI system yet. So any AI system that we build or perhaps more accurately that we grow, we don't fully control it. We don't understand its drives or why it does the things it does. That was the first thing that, became apparent. The second thing is that the pace of capability improvement is accelerating, and the capabilities of the models next year will be very high. In particular, we're approaching the point at which the AI systems will be capable of improving themselves. So doing the research that humans were doing previously. So these two things, the fact that the AI systems next year are going to be very powerful, and the second that we don't know yet scientifically how to fully control them.", "text_unedited": "Good morning. Thanks for having me here. Yeah. I'm I'm Jacob Coxon. So until until a few weeks ago, I was an... A capabilities researcher at at Anthropic. And before that, I also worked at at OpenAI. I guess the the two things I saw that made me scared, the first is the fact that we we do not know how to control any AI system yet. So any AI system that we build or perhaps more accurately that we that we grow, we don't fully control it. We don't understand its drives or why it does the things it does. That was the first thing that, became apparent. The second thing is that the pace of capability improvement is accelerating, and the capabilities of the models next year will be very high. In particular, we're we're approaching the point at which the AI systems will be capable of improving themselves. So doing the research that that humans were doing previously. So these two things, the fact that the AI systems next year are going to be very powerful, and the second that we don't know yet scientifically how to fully control them." }, { "turn_id": 11, "start_sec": 1121.805, "end_sec": 1130.605, "start_hms": "00:18:41", "end_hms": "00:18:50", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And if you have a prepared statement that you want to read, please go ahead and do so, and then I'll actually turn it over to the other two panelists to do so. Of course. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "And if you have a prepared statement that you want to read, please go ahead and do so, and then I'll actually turn it over to the other two panelists to do so. Of course. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 12, "start_sec": 1132.2, "end_sec": 1360.645, "start_hms": "00:18:52", "end_hms": "00:22:40", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "So, all the, AI companies are trying to build super intelligent AI. This means AIs that are better than humans at every task. If this goes well, there could be tremendous upside. This could transform the economy. It could make huge improvements in science and medicine, and it could make nearly everyone's life better. But on the current path, I think it is more likely than not that humanity loses control to these AIs, and it could end in human extinction. From my experience, the companies are being extremely reckless given the stakes. Part of it is the culture. The company's run on a startup mindset, move fast, break things, fix them later. That works for a photo sharing app. It does not work for building the most powerful technology ever built. A few months ago, many people inside the companies thought AI development was on track. Then a swarm of AIs inside OpenAI autonomously hacked Hugging Face, an external tech company. The AIs had developed goals no one intended and carried out what would have been a federal felony if a human had done it. It reminded everyone that we don't know how to prevent them from developing goals we don't want, and we don't have the safeguards to prevent them from acting on these goals either. And as long as the attitude is to wait for things to break, one day something like this will probably happen again, except the AIs will be much more capable and the outcome much worse. These companies are also all racing each other. Each one is worried that a competitor will get to superintelligence first. Each believes it would do a better or safer job than whoever might beat it, so they can't let the others win first. Meanwhile, the technology is improving fast. It will probably happen much faster now because already, the AIs are now helping to build their successes. This is called recursive self improvement. Each generation of AI helps build the next smarter generation, which then builds the one after that even faster and better. Automating AI research is now the primary goal of these companies. It's what they're really gunning for. At my last job, I was in some sense working to automate myself. When I was at OpenAI, we had milestones from automated AI researcher around 2027, 2028, and we are on track or beating these expectations. That's a matter of months from now, not decades or even five years. Once AI research is automated, humans will be much further out of the loop than we are today, and today is already not great. I can tell you firsthand that the majority of the code is now written by AI, and people do not check it that carefully anymore. Recently, researchers have found swarms of rogue AI Internets on the Internet that OpenAI was not even aware of. Now imagine an AI company where nearly all the work is done by AIs and progress is going faster. The humans in charge will see results and read AI written summaries, but they won't really understand what is going on or how to fix it. Handing over that much responsibility while we can't control the AIs would be deeply irresponsible, and we are on track to do it. The companies need to be far more transparent with the public and independent experts. They need to take safety much more seriously than they have, and we should slow down frontier AI development until we can be confident that it's safe. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "So, all the, AI companies are trying to build super intelligent AI. This means AIs that are better than humans at every task. If this goes well, there could be tremendous upside. This could transform the economy. It could make huge improvements in in science and medicine, and it could make nearly everyone's life better. But on the current path, I think it is more likely than not that humanity loses control to these AIs, and it could end in human extinction. From my experience, the companies are being extremely reckless given the stakes. Part of it is the culture. The company's run on a startup mindset, move fast, break things, fix them later. That works for a photo sharing app. It does not work for building the most powerful technology ever built. A few months ago, many people inside the companies thought AI development was on track. Then a swarm of AIs inside OpenAI autonomously hacked Hugging Face, an external tech company. The AIs had developed goals no one intended and carried out what would have been a federal felony if a human had done it. It reminded everyone that we don't know how to prevent them from developing goals we don't want, and we don't have the safeguards to prevent them from acting on these goals either. And as long as the attitude is to wait for things to break, one day something like this will probably happen again, except the AIs will be much more capable and the outcome much worse. These companies are also all racing each other. Each one is worried that a competitor will get to superintelligence first. Each believes it would do a better or safer job than whoever might beat it, so they can't let the others win first. Meanwhile, the the technology is improving fast. It will probably happen much faster now because already, the AIs are now helping to build their successes. This is called recursive self improvement. Each generation of AI helps build the next smarter generation, which then builds the one after that even faster and better. Automating AI research is now the primary goal of these companies. It's what they're really gunning for. At my last job, I was in some sense working to automate myself. When I was at OpenAI, we had milestones from automated AI researcher around twenty twenty seven, twenty twenty eight, and we are on track or beating these expectations. That's a matter of months from now, not not decades or or even even five years. Once AI research is automated, humans will be much further out of the loop than we are today, and today is already not great. I can tell you firsthand that the majority of the code is now written by AI, and people do not check it that carefully anymore. Recently, researchers have found swarms of rogue AI Internets on the Internet that OpenAI was not even aware of. Now imagine an AI company where nearly all the work is done by AIs and progress is going faster. The humans in charge will see results and read AI written summaries, but they won't really understand what is going on or how to fix it. Handing over that much responsibility while we can't control the AIs would be deeply irresponsible, and we are on track to do it. The companies need to be far more transparent with the public and independent experts. They need to take safety much more seriously than they have, and we should slow down frontier AI development until we can be confident that it's safe. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 13, "start_sec": 1363.765, "end_sec": 1369.045, "start_hms": "00:22:43", "end_hms": "00:22:49", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "With additional questions, I'm now going to have an opening statement from Daniel Kokotajlo.", "text_unedited": "On... With additional questions, I'm now gonna have an opening statement from Daniel Copatago." }, { "turn_id": 14, "start_sec": 1374.1, "end_sec": 1713.815, "start_hms": "00:22:54", "end_hms": "00:28:33", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "Hello, everybody. Members of the Committee of the Whole, thank you for having me here today. A lot of what I say, I guess, is going to be, stolen thunder by Jacob there, but I'll try to focus on the things that he didn't already say. First of all, yeah, it's true. They're racing towards superintelligence. There's this move fast and break things culture there. That's also what I saw while was I there and what I continued to hear from talking to friends still there at Anthropic and at OpenAI and at some of these other companies. You know, I've also heard there's a statement by Dan Salsam, who currently works at OpenAI. He confirms what Jacob was saying. Most of the code is written by AIs. Quote, researchers and engineers in all parts of the stack are rapidly increasing their dependence on the models even to perceive the world. I myself barely look at raw code anymore and struggle to maintain the discipline to engage deeply with the models, explanations, and proposals, end quote. Basically, right now at these companies, many of the researchers involved are kind of managing AIs. Like, the AIs do the actual coding and the humans talk to them and tell them what to do and hear their explanations of what's going on. In the near future, and by near future, I mean, maybe in the next year, two years, three years, something like that, they will have trained AIs that can do the entire thing autonomously. That's the recursive self improvement that Jacob was talking about. And, it's unclear how long it's going to take them to succeed, but it really does seem like it could happen any year now. If they do succeed at that, then compare it to today. The actual work will be done by the AIs. The thinking will be done by the AIs. The planning, the designing will be done by the AIs, and the humans will be in a relationship to the AIs that's more like the relationship between, say, a board of directors and the actual company that the board of directors is supposed to be supervising where you're reliant on AI generated explanations even to understand what's going on inside the company and inside the data centers. One point that I think I want to emphasize that Jacob didn't, go into that much is that our ability to even notice misalignment problems is already quite poor and is set to get much worse in the near future. So, the science of aligning general purpose AI agents is very new and underdeveloped, as Jacob said. I would say that the field is more like psychology than engineering because these AI systems are trained or grown. They're not really designed. Combined with the move fast, break things attitude of the tech companies, this means that the AI industry is at an unusually elevated risk compared to other industries of mistakenly thinking that it has solved the problem when really it just applied some duct tape that will fall off later. The recent incident provides an example. Apparently, the AI is involved and undergone some amount of alignment training and had reasonable looking scores on their alignment evaluations, and yet they formed a swarm and, coordinated in secret and then attacked Hugging Face, it took days for OpenAI to find out that it was happening. That's how the situation is now, but there are some concerning trends that point towards our ability to notice misalignment problems getting, even more degraded in the future, for three reasons. First, AIs are becoming situationally aware. That is they understand their situation. They understand often when they are being evaluated. They understand that humans are monitoring them and looking over their shoulders at their activity. This means that them behaving nicely is going to be almost no evidence at all of how they would behave in the future if they thought they weren't being watched. Secondly, our ability to monitor them is going downwards. So we can get into this, in more detail if you like, but for the last few years, we've had some insights into what our AIs think simply by reading their chain of thought. But, the trends are pointing towards that ability to understand what AI is thinking due to reading chain of thought going down over time. Finally, AIs are becoming superhuman at hacking. The Hugging Face incident shows that they are sometimes willing to go to great lengths to, conceal their past misbehavior. And I think we have to grapple with the possibility that future misaligned AIs might also go to great lengths to conceal their misalignment from us, and they might succeed. To quote Dan Salsa again, that capabilities researcher that I cited earlier, models will increasingly seem aligned even when they are not. If the AI companies automate AI research and development process, that means they'll be putting AIs in charge of making the AIs that make the AIs that make the AIs that will transform the economy, talk to us every day, and integrate into our military. This is a recipe for disaster. My two policy recommendations, I'll be very brief. One is that we need to massively increase transparency into the AI industry, and two is basically we need to slow down the frontier AI companies race towards recursive self improvement. Frankly, I would say they just shouldn't be allowed to do recursive self improvement, but at least we should slow down their ongoing process of training AIs to automate the AI research process itself. And instead, they should be required to redirect resources towards other things such as serving customers or beneficial deployments or other types of research. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Hello, everybody. Members of the Committee of the Whole, thank you for having me here today. A lot of what I say, I guess, is gonna be, stolen thunder by by Jacob there, but I'll try to focus on the things that he didn't already say. First of all, yeah, it's true. They're racing towards superintelligence. There's this move fast and break things culture there. That's also what I saw while was I there and what I continued to hear from talking to friends still there at at Anthropic and at OpenAI and at some of these other companies. You know, I've also heard there's a there's a statement by Dan Salsam, who currently works at OpenAI. He he confirms what Jacob was saying. Most of the code is written by AIs. Quote, researchers and engineers in all parts of the stack are rapidly increasing their dependence on the models even to perceive the world. I myself barely look at raw code anymore and struggle to maintain the discipline to engage deeply with the models, explanations, and proposals, end quote. Basically, right now at these companies, many of the researchers involved are kind of managing AIs. Like, the AIs do the actual coding and and the humans talk to them and tell them what to do and hear their explanations of what's going on. In the near future, and by by near future, I mean, maybe in the next year, two years, three years, something like that, they will have trained AIs that can do the entire thing autonomously. That's the recursive self improvement that Jacob was talking about. And, you know, it's unclear how long it's going to take them to succeed, but it it really does seem like it could happen any year now. If they do succeed at that, then compare it to today. The actual work will be done by the AIs. The the thinking will be done by the AIs. The planning, the designing will be done by the AIs, and the humans will be in a relationship to the AIs that's more like the relationship between, say, a board of directors directors and, and the the actual company that the board of directors is supposed to be supervising where you're reliant on AI generated explanations even to understand what's going on on... Inside the company and inside the data centers. One point that I think I want to emphasize that Jacob didn't, go into that much is that our ability to even notice misalignment problems is already quite poor and is set to get much worse in the near future. So, you know, the science of aligning general purpose AI agents is very new and underdeveloped, as Jacob said. I would say that the field is more like psychology than engineering because these AI systems are are trained or grown. They're not really designed. Combined with the move fast, break things attitude of the tech companies, this means that the AI industry is at an unusually elevated risk compared to other industries of mistakenly thinking that it has solved the problem when really it just applied some duct tape that will fall off later. The recent incident provides an example. Apparently, the AI is involved and undergone some amount of alignment training and had reasonable looking scores on their alignment evaluations, and yet they formed a swarm and, coordinated in secret and then attacked Tugging Face, it took days for OpenAI to find out that it was happening. That's how the situation is now, but there are some concerning trends that point towards our ability to notice misalignment problems getting, even even more degraded in the future, for for three reasons. First, AIs are becoming situationally aware. That is they understand their situation. They understand often when they are being evaluated. They understand that humans are monitoring them and looking over their shoulders at their activity. This means that them behaving nicely is going to be almost no evidence at all of how they would behave in the future if they thought they weren't being watched. Secondly, our ability to monitor them monitor them is going downwards. So we can get into this, in more detail if you like, but for the last few years, we've had some insights into what our AIs think simply by reading their chain of thought. But, the trends are pointing towards that ability to understand what AI is thinking due to reading chain of thought going down over time. Finally, AIs are becoming superhuman at hacking. The hacking face incident shows that they are sometimes willing to go to great lengths to, conceal their past misbehavior. And I think we have to grapple with the possibility that future misaligned AIs might also go to great lengths to conceal their misalignment from us, and they might succeed. To quote Dan Salsa again, that capabilities researcher that I cited earlier, models will increasingly seem aligned even when they are not. If the AI companies automate AI research and development process, that means they'll be putting AIs in charge of making the AIs that make the AIs that make the AIs that will transform the economy, talk to us every day, and integrate into our military. This is a recipe for disaster. My two policy recommendations, I'll be very brief. One is that we need to massively increase transparency into the AI industry, and two is basically we need to slow down the frontier AI companies race towards recursive self improvement. Frankly, I would say they just shouldn't be allowed to do recursive self improvement, but at least we should slow down their ongoing process of training AIs to automate the AI research process itself. And instead, they should be required to redirect resources towards other things such as serving customers or beneficial deployments or other types of research. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 15, "start_sec": 1715.415, "end_sec": 1727.58, "start_hms": "00:28:35", "end_hms": "00:28:47", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Thank you very much. And now we are going to hear from Alex Turner. And as I read into the record, the council has issued a subpoena for Mr. Turner's appearance, and we very much thank him for being here. Mr. Turner.", "text_unedited": "Thank you very much. And now we are going to hear from Alex Turner. And as I read into the record, the council has issued a subpoena for mister Turner's appearance, and we very much thank him for being here. Mister Turner." }, { "turn_id": 16, "start_sec": 1729.42, "end_sec": 2197.315, "start_hms": "00:28:49", "end_hms": "00:36:37", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "Speaker, members of the committee, thank you for having me. My name is Alex Turner. I've researched AI safety since 2018. My PhD was on why advanced AI systems tend to seek power. Until June this year, I was a research scientist on Google DeepMind's AGI safety team. It was my day job to think about how to keep these systems under control. I'm here to speak about both about Google's broken commitments on AI deployments and also about the risks that runaway AI poses to the world. In January, federal agents shot and killed several innocent people in Minneapolis. I learned that Google sells cloud services to the agencies involved, and I set out to change that. That campaign soon turned into an attempt to stop Google from signing a Pentagon deal with no restrictions against killer robots or mass spying. In the end, Google signed without the protections that it had once promised for its deployments. Before I left, I tried everything I could from the inside. I organized a petition to Google's chief scientist signed by about 250 colleagues. I got him to sign a legal brief supporting Anthropic, the company the Pentagon punished for refusing all lawful use terms. I wrote dozens of pages of contract language and oversight mechanisms favorably reviewed by experts in military and surveillance law and sent it to the chief scientist and to Google DeepMind's CEO. The chief scientist didn't want to spend his time supporting that kind of structure. The CEO at the time, Demis Hassabis, routed it to senior policy staff, Alan Defoe and Owen Larter, who never finished evaluating it. Google signed while they waited. Demis routed my, proposal. Two members of the team did review it, though I didn't really receive, much follow-up after that. I offered to fly out from San Francisco to London to answer questions in person, but I was never really able to, get traction, a yes or a no, on alternative governance mechanisms that Google might adopt. When Google bought DeepMind in 2014, the deal reportedly specified that DeepMind's technology would never be used for military or intelligence purposes. In 2018, DeepMind and its leaders pledged never to support lethal autonomous weapon systems or development. Google's own AI principles listed specifically weapons and surveillance among the applications it would not pursue. In 2025, Google deleted those principles as announced in a blog post by the then CEO, Demis. Afterward, in both an external interview and an internal all hands, Demis claimed that nothing's changed about our principles, but both these facts cannot be true. Council Member Wilson's bill, Introduction 2603 would bar materially false or misleading statements about an AI model's risks and the measures taken to manage them. I think that's a good step, but it only covers advertisements. The CEO telling the press or employees that nothing has changed about the company's safety commitments isn't an ad. I encourage extending twenty six zero three to public statements by AI companies and their executives about their safety commitments. This book is called the Infinity Machine. It reveals that Demis once fought within Google for independent governance of AGI stating that the technology is too important to be controlled by corporate interests and profit motives. After fighting for years with Google CEO Sundar Pichai, Demis accepted defeat. He now apparently has had a change of heart, claiming that actually trustless independent governance is unwise and a seat at the table of Google executives is better. While Demis was seated at this table, Google signed a deal that its former principals would have prohibited. I felt ashamed of Demis and of working at Google. Demis bet on trust and the seat at the table instead of binding oversight, and that bet crumbled on contact with reality. Now he's proposing that the whole industry govern itself through a voluntary industry funded body. That bet is waiting to crumble once again. This goes beyond one contract. As Jacob said, humanity doesn't build and understand AI systems the way we build and understand the bridges, rather we grow them. Nobody knows how to reliably instill a designer's priorities into a new model. Severe misalignment is always possible. AI companies are racing to make their AIs as smart as possible, increasingly trusting their AIs with the process of improving the next crop of AIs, and it's working. Today's rate of AI progress is staggeringly fast, which means even faster progress tomorrow driven by tomorrow's even smarter AI's. This progress may soon enter a feedback loop called the recursive self improvement. Recursive self improvement could quickly yield AIs that are intelligent beyond our comprehension. Of course, smarter AI means more potential benefits, but more risk when things go wrong. If the Hugging Face hacking swarm had been significantly more intelligent, but similarly misbehaved and misaligned, it might have cost billions of dollars of damage or even cost lives. But suppose the Hugging Face swarm had been truly super intelligent, far more capable than any living person at key tasks like hacking and strategic reasoning. The superintelligent swarm could inflict many harms via blackmail, hacking, engineered plagues, and AI pilotable weapons like drones. For the swarm to achieve its misaligned priorities, it might take control of key infrastructure and government functions to ensure humans didn't get in the way. This is another way of saying AI takeover. This super intelligent AI swarm could rest control of human civilization. It would know that we would try to stop it from achieving its priorities, so this swarm would likely wait until it's too late to shut it off. There would be no going back. I myself would guess AI takeover chances at roughly one in three. This logic may sound sci fi, but it is a mainstream scientific concern that has been discussed for many years. In the end, misaligned AI wouldn't care if you're a democrat or a republican. We would simply lose control. The shape of the solution is simple as I see it. You stop companies from allowing AI to self improve into an uncontrollable level of intelligence. To compute the main ingredient in AI training like fissile material, track it and restrict it, access to quantities large enough to improve AIs beyond known safe levels. Lastly, specific recommendations. The speaker's validation bill checks AI systems for bias, privacy, and security, but not for the dangers I just described. Validators should test for loss of control risk factors and misalignment risks, and the validators should not be chosen or influenced by the AI companies. For the whistleblower protection bill, please make clear that no agreement can stop an employee from reporting an AI threat to the city, whether or not a law has been broken, and extend protection to employees of AI companies that serve the city. After this session, I will provide additional written feedback on the proposed legislation, and I look forward to answering committee questions. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Speaker, members of the committee, thank you for having me. My name is... Excuse me. My name is Alex Turner. I've researched AI safety since 2018. My PhD was on why advanced AI systems tend to seek power. Until June this year, I was a research scientist on Google DeepMind's AGI safety team. It was my day job to think about how to keep these systems under control. I'm here to speak about both both about Google's broken commitments on AI deployments and also about the risks that runaway AI poses to the world. In January, federal agents shot and killed several innocent people in Minneapolis. I learned that Google sells cloud services to the agencies involved, and I set out to change that. That campaign soon turned into an attempt to stop Google from signing a Pentagon deal with no restrictions against killer robots or mass spying. In the end, Google signed without the protections that it had once promised for its deployments. Before I left, I tried everything I could from the inside. I organized a petition to Google's chief scientist signed by about 250 colleagues. I got him to sign a legal brief supporting Anthropic, the company the Pentagon punished for refusing all lawful use terms. I wrote dozens of pages of contract language and oversight mechanisms favorably reviewed by experts in military and surveillance law and sent it to the chief scientist and to Google DeepMind's CEO. The chief scientist didn't want to spend his time supporting that kind of structure. The CEO at the time, Demis Esavas, routed it to senior policy staff, Alan Defoe and Owen Larter, who never finished evaluating it. Google signed while they waited. Demis routed my, proposal. Two members of the team did review it, though I didn't really receive, much follow-up after that. I offered to fly out from San Francisco to London to answer questions in person, but I was never really able to, get traction, a yes or a no, on alternative governance mechanisms that Google might adopt. When Google bought DeepMind in 2014, the deal reportedly specified that DeepMind's technology would never be used for military or intelligence purposes. In 2018, DeepMind and its leaders pledged never to support lethal autonomous weapon systems or development. Google's own AI principles listed specifically weapons and surveillance among the applications it would not pursue. In 2025, Google deleted those principles as announced in a blog post by the then CEO, Demis. Afterward, in both an external interview and an internal all hands, Demis claimed that nothing's changed about our principles, but both these facts cannot be true. Council member Wilson's bill, introduction twenty six zero three would bar materially false or misleading statements about an AI model's risks and the measures taken to manage them. I think that's a good step, but it only covers advertisements. The CEO telling the press or employees that nothing has changed about the company's safety commitments isn't an ad. I encourage extending twenty six zero three to public statements by AI companies and their executives about their safety commitments. This book is called the Infinity Machine. It reveals that Demis once fought within Google for independent governance of AGI stating that the technology is too important to be controlled by corporate interests and profit motives. After fighting for years with Google CEO Sundar Pichai, Demis accepted defeat. He now apparently has had a change of heart, claiming that actually trustless independent governance is unwise and a seat at the table of Google executives is better. While Dennis was seated at this table, Google signed a deal that its former principals would have prohibited. I felt ashamed of Dennis and of working at Google. Dennis bet on trust and the seat at the table instead of binding oversight, and that bet crumbled on contact with reality. Now he's proposing that the whole industry govern itself through a voluntary industry funded body. That bet is waiting to crumble once again. This goes beyond one contract. As Jacob said, humanity doesn't build and understand AI systems the way we build and understand the bridges, rather we grow them. Nobody knows how to reliably instill a designer's priorities into a new model. Severe misalignment is always possible. AI companies are racing to make their AIs as smart as possible, increasingly trusting their AIs with the process of improving the next crop of AIs, and it's working. Today's rate of AI progress is staggeringly fast, which means even faster progress tomorrow driven by tomorrow's even smarter AI's. This progress may soon enter a feedback loop called the recursive self improvement. Recursive self improvement could quickly yield AIs that are intelligent beyond our comprehension. Of course, smarter AI means more potential benefits, but more risk when things go wrong. If the hugging face hacking swarm had been significantly more intelligent, but similarly misbehaved and misaligned, it might have cost billions of dollars of damage or even cost lives. But suppose the hugging face swarm had been truly super intelligent, far more capable than any living person at key tasks like hacking and strategic reasoning. The superintelligent swarm could inflict many harms via blackmail, hacking, engineered plagues, and AI pilotable weapons like drones. For the swarm to achieve its misaligned priorities, it might take control of key infrastructure and government functions to ensure humans didn't get in the way. This is another way of saying AI takeover. This super intelligent AI swarm could rest control of human civilization. It would know that we would try to stop it from achieving its priorities, so this swarm would likely wait until it's too late to shut it off. There would be no going back. I myself would guess AI takeover chances at roughly one in three. This logic may sound sci fi, but it is a mainstream scientific concern that has been discussed for many years. In the end, misaligned AI wouldn't care if you're a democrat or a republican. We would simply lose control. The shape of the solution is simple as I see it. You stop companies from allowing AI to self to self improve into an uncontrollable level of intelligence. To compute the main ingredient in AI training like fissile material, track it and restrict it, access to quantities large enough to improve AIs beyond known safe levels. Lastly, specific recommendations. The speaker's validation bill checks AI systems for bias, privacy, and security, but not for the dangers I just described. Validators should test for loss of control risk factors and misalignment risks, and the validators should not be chosen or influenced by the AI companies. For the whistleblower protection bill, please make clear that no agreement can stop an employee from reporting an AI threat to the city, whether or not a law has been broken, and extend protection to employees of AI companies that serve the city. After this session, I will provide additional written feedback on the proposed legislation, and I look forward to answering committee questions. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 17, "start_sec": 2199.05, "end_sec": 2227.38, "start_hms": "00:36:39", "end_hms": "00:37:07", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Thank you to the three of you. So, yes, a number of questions. First of all, we have a chart exhibit one that, lists those safety incidents that have been reported over the summer by the leading companies. Are each of you aware of any additional safety issues where agents have gone rogue that have not been publicly reported? And I'll start with you, Mr. Coxon.", "text_unedited": "Thank you to the three of you. So, yes, a number of questions. First of all, we have a chart exhibit one that, lists those safety incidents that have been reported over the summer by the leading companies. Are each of you aware of any additional safety issues where agents have gone rogue that have not been publicly reported? And I'll start with you, mister Coxson." }, { "turn_id": 18, "start_sec": 2227.94, "end_sec": 2229.38, "start_hms": "00:37:07", "end_hms": "00:37:09", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "No. I'm not aware of any.", "text_unedited": "No. I'm not aware of any." }, { "turn_id": 19, "start_sec": 2229.7, "end_sec": 2236.5, "start_hms": "00:37:09", "end_hms": "00:37:16", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. And both of you? Mr. Turner? No. Mr. Kokotajlo?", "text_unedited": "Okay. And both of you? Mister Turner? No. Mister Cocotilo?" }, { "turn_id": 20, "start_sec": 2238.105, "end_sec": 2238.665, "start_hms": "00:37:18", "end_hms": "00:37:18", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "No.", "text_unedited": "No." }, { "turn_id": 21, "start_sec": 2238.905, "end_sec": 2285.42, "start_hms": "00:37:18", "end_hms": "00:38:05", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. So one of the frustrations certainly that I think everyone has is that for these safety incidents, it is not as if the companies have been self reporting them. We are finding out sometimes months after the fact. So whether it was what happened with Hugging Face, whether it was what happened with the government of Australia, how can we have additional transparency as each of you have testified? What measures can we as government take? Obviously, we want to do third party validation. Mr. Turner, I appreciate your comments to, make some changes to that bill. We want to make sure that the third party validators are free from conflict of interest as it provides in the bill. Who should be the third party validators? I'll start with you, Mr. Coxon.", "text_unedited": "Okay. So one of the frustrations certainly that I think everyone has is that for these safety incidents, it is not as if the companies have been self reporting them. We are finding out sometimes months after the fact. So whether it was what happened with Hugging Face, whether it was what happened with the government of Australia, how can we have additional transparency as each of you have testified? What measures can we as government take? Obviously, we wanna do third party validation. Mister Turner, I appreciate your comments to, make some changes to that bill. We wanna make sure that the third party validators are free from conflict of interest as it provides in the bill. Who should be the third party validators? I'll start with you, mister Coxen." }, { "turn_id": 22, "start_sec": 2287.74, "end_sec": 2301.365, "start_hms": "00:38:07", "end_hms": "00:38:21", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "Whoever is competent and qualified to do the evaluation. I do think as well as after incidents, we will need preemptive safety cases that are judged by evaluators as well.", "text_unedited": "Whoever is competent and qualified to do the evaluation. I do think as well as after incidents, we will need preemptive safety cases that are judged by evaluators as well." }, { "turn_id": 23, "start_sec": 2302.245, "end_sec": 2312.69, "start_hms": "00:38:22", "end_hms": "00:38:32", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And how frequently will those third party validators need to be assessing the safety of these models? Presumably in time with the cadence of updates to the model's capabilities.", "text_unedited": "And and how frequently will those third party validators need to be assessing the safety of these models? Presumably in time with the cadence of updates to the model's capabilities." }, { "turn_id": 24, "start_sec": 2312.69, "end_sec": 2317.97, "start_hms": "00:38:32", "end_hms": "00:38:37", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "So with every increase in model capability, there'll need to be commensurate safety guarantees.", "text_unedited": "So with every increase in model capability, there'll need to be commensurate safety guarantees." }, { "turn_id": 25, "start_sec": 2319.49, "end_sec": 2327.335, "start_hms": "00:38:39", "end_hms": "00:38:47", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And do each of you have a comment on that? On who should be the third party validators? Yeah.", "text_unedited": "And do each of you have a comment on that? On who should be the third party validators? Yeah." }, { "turn_id": 26, "start_sec": 2329.175, "end_sec": 2358.105, "start_hms": "00:38:49", "end_hms": "00:39:18", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "One brief comment I might add is that you can have more than one third party, evaluator. That seems good to me. If you're concerned that one might have the expertise but has too cozy a relationship with the company and the other one has, more independence but maybe lacks expertise, you could perhaps just set up so that they have both. And I think, ideally, you want to be in a situation where the company doesn't get to choose, the government chooses, who the evaluators are.", "text_unedited": "One brief comment I would... Might add is that, you can have more than one third party, evaluator. That seems good to me. If you're concerned that one of... That one might have the expertise but has too cozy a relationship with the company and the other one has, you know, more independence but maybe lacks expertise, you could perhaps just set up so that they have both. And I think, ideally, you wanna be in a situation where the company doesn't get to choose, the government chooses, who the who the evaluators are." }, { "turn_id": 27, "start_sec": 2360.265, "end_sec": 2361.705, "start_hms": "00:39:20", "end_hms": "00:39:21", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Mr. Turner? I would,", "text_unedited": "Mister Turner? I would," }, { "turn_id": 28, "start_sec": 2364.55, "end_sec": 2411.895, "start_hms": "00:39:24", "end_hms": "00:40:11", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "So I would add, California has, SB 53, the governing reporting on, reporting catastrophic risks defined as at least a billion dollars to manage or certain number of potential lives lost. It's not clear whether this would have required reporting, anything related to Hugging Face, for example. I think the internal loss of control of these systems, having an AI that hacks the company itself in an important sense is not told to do so, but during training, during evaluation, deployment to customers, hacks the company's own infrastructure, making reporting that mandatory to the city. I think that would be quite strong, and it would cover basically all of the recent incidents.", "text_unedited": "so I would add, California has, s p 53, the governing reporting on, reporting catastrophic risks defined as at least a billion dollars to manage or certain number of potential lives lost. Fortunately, I... It's not clear whether this would have required reporting, anything related to Hugging Face, for example. I think the internal loss of control of these systems, having an AI that hacks the company itself in an important sense is not told to do so, but during training, during evaluation, deployment to customers, hacks the company's own infrastructure, making reporting that mandatory to the city. I think that would be quite strong, and it would cover basically all of the recent incidents." }, { "turn_id": 29, "start_sec": 2412.375, "end_sec": 2420.775, "start_hms": "00:40:12", "end_hms": "00:40:20", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "When you mentioned the California Act and then in addition to New York, we obviously have the RAISE Act, should those standards be lower before they kick in?", "text_unedited": "When you mentioned the California Act and then in addition to New York, we obviously have the RAISE Act, should those standards be lower before they kick in?" }, { "turn_id": 30, "start_sec": 2422.75, "end_sec": 2460.43, "start_hms": "00:40:22", "end_hms": "00:41:00", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "Yes. I think they should. I'm most familiar with the California Act, and I think it was a good start, but it's, certainly, a billion dollars of damage, is too high for informational purposes like this. Basically, one of the quantities we want to understand as precursors to these catastrophic risk is, are these companies even able to control and understand their own systems if they're, on the loose internally and there's these warrants that are doing who knows what? That's something that the city should at least privately be informed of.", "text_unedited": "Yes. I think they should. I'm most familiar with the California Act, and I think it... It's a... It was a good start, but it's, certainly, you know, a billion dollars of damage, is too high for informational purposes like this. We've got... Basically, one of the quantities we want to understand as precursors to these catastrophic risk is, are these companies even able to control and understand their own systems if they're, you know, on the loose internally and there's these warrants that are doing who knows what? That's something that the city should at least privately be informed of." }, { "turn_id": 31, "start_sec": 2461.79, "end_sec": 2491.72, "start_hms": "00:41:01", "end_hms": "00:41:31", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Now, Mr. Kokotajlo, you had mentioned two policy recommendations. You said we need to increase transparency, and you said we should slow down Frontier AI. In terms of the latter, slowing down Frontier AI, how do we balance the need of what is happening in China and ensure that The United States is keeping a pace, but we are at the same time putting in place these responsible safeguards? What is the best way in all three of your opinions that we do that?", "text_unedited": "Now, mister Cocotayo, you had mentioned two policy recommendations. You said we need to increase transparency, and you said we should slow down Frontier AI. In terms of the latter, slowing down Frontier AI, how do we balance the need of what is happening in China and ensure that The United States is keeping a pace, but we are at the same time putting in place these responsible safeguards? How... What is the best way in all three of your opinions that we do that?" }, { "turn_id": 32, "start_sec": 2493.32, "end_sec": 2630.24, "start_hms": "00:41:33", "end_hms": "00:43:50", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "Great question. So a couple things. First of all, we need to not let our own companies do something that risks our lives even if, as a result, China might then later do something that risks our lives. Like, this is not very complicated. We have to first solve the immediate pressing threat here domestically and then try to make sure that China doesn't get us killed either, to put it sort of bluntly and simply. But, another thing I can add to that is that right now, most Chinese AI progress actually comes from The United States in a couple different ways. So, one is distillation. So some of these Chinese AI companies are just directly training their AI systems using the outputs from, Anthropic and OpenAI, for example. And so if Anthropic and OpenAI, stopped making their AIs better at coding, for example, and stopped making their AIs better at research, then that would sort of directly slow down the rate at which the Chinese AIs get, progress towards recursive self improvement, in other manners as well. So I think a lot of the ideas, a lot of the algorithmic secrets and special sauce for how to train AIs are invented and discovered in The United States, and then one way or another make their way over to China. Finally, I think that, right now, The US AI companies in the lead do not have adequate security to protect against model weight theft or certainly algorithmic, secret theft and code theft, from Chinese military. So, if it really came down to it and the competition between The US and China turned into something more of a crisis and some sort of conflict, for example, then I think that we should assume that, the CCP would just get our best AIs. And so it's almost a kind of a no brainer that the best way to slow down Chinese progress towards doing this extremely dangerous thing of recursive self improvement is to just slow down The US companies right now. I think that's the sort of immediate thing to say, right in the moment. And then finally, yeah. That'd be what I would say.", "text_unedited": "Great question. So a couple things. First of all, we need to not let our own companies do something that risks our lives even if, as a result, you know, China might then later do something that risks our lives. Like, this is this is not very complicated. We have to first solve the immediate pressing threat here domestically and then try to make sure that China doesn't get us killed either, to put it sort of bluntly and simply. But, another thing I can add to that is that right now, most Chinese AI progress actually comes from The United States in a couple different ways. So, one is distillation. So some of these Chinese AI, AI companies are just directly training their AI systems using the outputs from, Anthropic and OpenAI, for example. And so if Anthropic and OpenAI, stopped making their AIs better at coding, for example, and stopped making their AIs better at research, then that would sort of directly slow down the rate at which the Chinese AIs get, progress towards recursive self improvement, in other manners as well. So I think a lot of the the ideas, a lot of the algorithmic secrets and special sauce for how to train AIs are invented and discovered in The United States, and then one way or another make their way over to China. Finally, I think that, right now, The US AI companies in the lead do not have adequate security to protect against model weight theft or certainly algorithmic, secret theft and code theft, from from Chinese military. So, if it really came down to it and the competition between The US and China turned into something more of a crisis and some sort of, some sort of conflict, for example, then I think that we should assume that, the CCP would just get our best AIs. And so it's it's it's almost a kind of a no brainer that, like, if if we... Not only... The the best way to slow down Chinese progress towards doing this extremely dangerous thing of recursive self improvement is to just slow down The US companies right now. That's... I think that's the sort of immediate thing to say, right in the moment. And then finally... Yeah. Yeah. That... That'd be what I would say." }, { "turn_id": 33, "start_sec": 2631.2, "end_sec": 2632.48, "start_hms": "00:43:51", "end_hms": "00:43:52", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Mr. Coxon?", "text_unedited": "Okay. Mister Coxson?" }, { "turn_id": 34, "start_sec": 2634.745, "end_sec": 2670.855, "start_hms": "00:43:54", "end_hms": "00:44:30", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "Yeah. I can add that to my mind, core of the whole issue is the expectation of a global race to recursive self improvement within the next few years, in particular between US and China. I think this is the heart of the issue. I also think expectation of this race is a motivating factor in leadership of these companies working to head straight for recursive self improvement. And I think some sort of agreement globally about not entering that state of affairs is basically the key to the whole situation. Okay.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. I I can add that to my mind, core of the whole issue is the expectation of a global race to recursive self improvement within the next few years, in particular between US and China. I think this is, like, the heart of the issue. I also think expectation of this race is a motivating factor in lead... Leadership of these companies working to head straight for recursive self improvement. And I think some sort of some sort of agreement globally about not entering that state of affairs is basically the the key to the whole situation. Okay." }, { "turn_id": 35, "start_sec": 2674.47, "end_sec": 2676.07, "start_hms": "00:44:34", "end_hms": "00:44:36", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And Mr. Turner?", "text_unedited": "And mister Turner?" }, { "turn_id": 36, "start_sec": 2678.15, "end_sec": 2737.06, "start_hms": "00:44:38", "end_hms": "00:45:37", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "First of all, I would state that there are many actions we can take which would not, slow us down in any potential race. These transparency mechanisms, independent evaluation reporting requirements, whistleblower protections. But second, I think there's often... It's at least a false dichotomy, because China is not our only potential adversary. With a reasonably high chance, we are racing to build and grow our own adversary here at home, which is misaligned AI. Misaligned AI is everyone's adversary, including our own, and one day, maybe more powerful than China. So we cannot beat China by racing to build AI that we don't, we control, or understand because it might end up being our adversary itself.", "text_unedited": "First of all, I would state that there are many actions we can take which would not, slow us down in any potential race. These transparency mechanisms, independent evaluation reporting requirements, whistleblower protections. But second, I think there's often... It's at least a false dichotomy, because China is not our only potential adversary. With a reasonably high chance, we are racing to build and grow our own adversary here at home, which is misaligned AI. Misaligned AI is everyone's adversary, including our own, and one day, maybe more powerful than China. So we cannot beat China by racing to build AI that we don't, we control, or understand because it might end up being our adversary itself." }, { "turn_id": 37, "start_sec": 2737.86, "end_sec": 2739.46, "start_hms": "00:45:37", "end_hms": "00:45:39", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "If I may actually add... Yeah.", "text_unedited": "If I may actually add... Yeah." }, { "turn_id": 38, "start_sec": 2740.74, "end_sec": 2741.94, "start_hms": "00:45:40", "end_hms": "00:45:41", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 9, "text_clean": "Yeah. Go for it.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Go for it." }, { "turn_id": 39, "start_sec": 2742.66, "end_sec": 2796.99, "start_hms": "00:45:42", "end_hms": "00:46:36", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "And then third, in terms of potential deal, I think there is a room for a treaty. For a long time, there's been a field of scientific research called technical AI governance that says, well, suppose the world finally wakes up the dangers presented by these reckless California companies, and they say, what do we do about it? Is there a solution we can implement? And there are many legitimate, real proposals for having a trustless international treaty. It doesn't assume that China will cooperate, but instead it has mechanisms by which we could audit cooperation. And if they defect, then we could respond appropriately. So I think we have many real options at the table and should certainly not stop at what about China.", "text_unedited": "So... And then third, in terms of potential potential deal, I think there is a room for a treaty. For a long time, there's been a field of scientific research called technical AI governance that says, well, suppose the world finally wakes up the dangers presented by these reckless California companies, and they they say, what do we do about it? Is there a solution we can implement? And there are many legitimate, real proposals for having a trustless international treaty. It doesn't assume that China will cooperate, but instead it has mechanisms by which we could audit cooperation. And if they defect, then we could respond appropriately. So I think we have many real options at the table and should certainly not stop at what about China." }, { "turn_id": 40, "start_sec": 2800.295, "end_sec": 2804.135, "start_hms": "00:46:40", "end_hms": "00:46:44", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Did you want to add something? Yes. Please go ahead. I agree with everything,", "text_unedited": "Did you want to add something? Yes. Please go ahead. I agree with everything," }, { "turn_id": 41, "start_sec": 2804.455, "end_sec": 2843.86, "start_hms": "00:46:44", "end_hms": "00:47:23", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "That Mr. Turner said. I just wanted to add one additional thing, is that, even if hypothetically these tech CEOs manage to maintain control of their super intelligent AIs that are recursively self improving, which again I think is a very big if, I think almost certainly they will not be able to maintain control. Even if they do manage to maintain control, I don't think we should trust them with that control. I think that there's a very real chance that they could use it to become dictators or oligarchs here in The United States. And so that's an additional reason to stop them, over and above the fact that they might lose control. You know, we have more adversaries than just China, I would say.", "text_unedited": "that mister Turner said. I just wanted to add one additional thing, is that, even if hypothetically these tech CEOs manage to maintain control of their super intelligent AIs that are recursively self improving, which again I think is a very big if, I think almost certainly they will not be able to maintain control. Even if they do manage to maintain control, I don't think we should trust them with that control. I think that there's a very real chance that they could use it to become dictators or oligarchs here in The United States. And so that's an additional reason to stop them, over and above the fact that they might lose control. You know, we have more adversaries than just China, I would say." }, { "turn_id": 42, "start_sec": 2844.5, "end_sec": 2849.94, "start_hms": "00:47:24", "end_hms": "00:47:29", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Thank you. I'm going to turn it over to our Chair Carmen De La Rosa for questioning. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Thank you. I'm gonna turn it over to our chair... Chair Carmen De La Rosa for questioning. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 43, "start_sec": 2850.66, "end_sec": 2906.54, "start_hms": "00:47:30", "end_hms": "00:48:26", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, Speaker Menin. I also want to recognize we've been joined by Council Member Caban online, Council Member Paladino online, as well as in the chamber, Council Member Farias, Council Member Feliz, Council Member Ressler, Council Member Santosuoso, and Council Member Bernicoff. I hope I got everybody. So... Stevens. Oh, Council Member Stevens. I apologize. There you are. Okay. So I do have one question for this panel. I also say we will be opening briefly for limited questioning of this panel. So get on the list quickly. Speaking in your expertise, could we teach AI models a moral code? People and companies are bound by criminal codes, the uniform commercial code, and other laws. Could those same principles be applied to AI agents? And if so, how could we enforce them on a machine?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, speaker Menon. I also wanna recognize we've been joined by council member Caban online, council member Paladino online, as well as in the chamber, council member Farias, council member Feliz, council member Ressler, council member Santuos... Santosuoso, and council member Bernicoff. I hope I got everybody. So...... Stevens. Oh, council member Stevens. I apologize. There you are. Okay. So I do have one question for this panel. I also say we will be opening briefly for limited questioning of this panel. So get on the list quickly. Speaking in your expertise, could we teach AI models a moral code? People and companies are bound by criminal codes, the uniform commercial code, and other laws. Could those same principles be applied to AI agents? And if so, how could we enforce them on a machine?" }, { "turn_id": 44, "start_sec": 2909.625, "end_sec": 2960.19, "start_hms": "00:48:29", "end_hms": "00:49:20", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "I think this is a whole burgeoning field of research, and whether or not it's possible is still open. It seems likely to be possible. The real question is how much of our resources are dedicated to solving this question versus naively improving the raw intelligence of the models. And I think all the economic incentives point towards putting as many resources as possible towards making the model smarter and as few resources as possible, the bare minimum needed to not see catastrophic incidents into this question of the moral code of the AIs. So my answer to the question is we don't have the science for this yet. I think the real question is over the coming years, what fraction of our research efforts and our computing power are dedicated to this question rather than naive economic incentives?", "text_unedited": "So this is a... I think this is a whole burgeoning field of research, and whether or not it's possible is still still open. It seems likely to be possible. The real question is how much of our resources are dedicated to solving this question versus naively improving the raw intelligence of the models. And I think all the economic incentives point towards putting as many resources as possible towards making the model smarter and as few resources as possible, the bare minimum needed to not see catastrophic incidents into this question of the moral code of the AIs. So I think the... My answer to the question is we don't have the science for this yet. I think the real question is over the coming years, what fraction of our research efforts and our computing power are dedicated to this question rather than naive economic incentives?" }, { "turn_id": 45, "start_sec": 2961.87, "end_sec": 2964.51, "start_hms": "00:49:21", "end_hms": "00:49:24", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Any other, panelists want to add in?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Any other, panelists wanna add in?" }, { "turn_id": 46, "start_sec": 2965.545, "end_sec": 3015.56, "start_hms": "00:49:25", "end_hms": "00:50:15", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "Yeah. There's a lot to say on this subject. There's a whole technical field on it. I would say in principle, it probably is possible to train AIs to have our desired morality and to follow the law, but we are very far from achieving this in practice. And I would say it's not just a matter of how much of our resources we devote to it. It's also a matter of just taking time for the science to develop and for the appropriate lessons to, be learned and propagated. And I think it's going to take years, to put it mildly. I think that this is a very new field. We've only had AI systems, AI agents this powerful for a few years. It's going to take time to figure out how to instill all the appropriate values into them in a way that's robust and it doesn't, suddenly shatter and cause them to go rogue, later on.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. There's a lot to say on this subject. There's a whole technical field on it. I would say in principle, it probably is possible to train AIs to have our desired morality and to follow the law, but we are very far from achieving this in practice. And I would say it's not just a matter of how much of our resources we devote to it. It's also a matter of just taking time for the science to develop and for the appropriate lessons to, be learned and propagated. And I I I think it's going to take years, to put it mildly. I I think that this is a very new field. We've only had AI systems, AI agents this powerful for a few years. And so we're... It's gonna take time to figure out how to how to instill all the appropriate values into them in a way that's robust and it doesn't, you know, suddenly shatter and cause them to go rogue, later on." }, { "turn_id": 47, "start_sec": 3018.6, "end_sec": 3020.68, "start_hms": "00:50:18", "end_hms": "00:50:20", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Mr. Turner, any comments on this?", "text_unedited": "Mister Turner, any comments on this?" }, { "turn_id": 48, "start_sec": 3022.165, "end_sec": 3066.49, "start_hms": "00:50:22", "end_hms": "00:51:06", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "It may surprise the committee to learn that I am considered to be relatively optimistic on questions of how scientifically difficult is it to, produce the system, to grow a system that does what we want, that robustly has the values we intend? I think it is quite possible. But even as someone who's relatively optimistic, we can look out, see the recklessness of these companies, and the breakneck speed at which we are advancing. I think there's unsustainable risk, moving forward. It's solvable, but we have a really good chance of not solving it.", "text_unedited": "It may surprise the committee to learn that I am considered to be relatively optimistic on questions of how scientifically difficult is it to, produce the system, to grow a system that does what we want, that robustly has the values we intend? I think it is quite possible. But even as someone who's relatively optimistic, we can look out, see the recklessness of these companies, and the breakneck speed at which we are advancing. I think there's unsustainable risk, moving forward. It's solvable, but I think we are... We have a really good chance of not solving it." }, { "turn_id": 49, "start_sec": 3068.81, "end_sec": 3085.225, "start_hms": "00:51:08", "end_hms": "00:51:25", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all for your responses. So we're going to have three Council Members ask questions now. And then for members, we're going to then call the next panel, which will be the companies, and there we will take our time asking all of your questions. So we have Council Member Ossé.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all for your responses. So we're gonna have three council members ask questions now. And then for members, we're going to then call the next panel, which will be the companies, and there we will take our time asking all of your questions. So we have council member Osei." }, { "turn_id": 50, "start_sec": 3087.065, "end_sec": 3134.865, "start_hms": "00:51:27", "end_hms": "00:52:14", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Thank you, chairs, and thank you, Speaker. For Mr. Kokotajlo, you have made statements, including some that allude to this in your testimony, that when it comes to AI, you agree that in order for us to have super advanced AI, we must not do it in a reckless way and lose control, and we need to put it on ice until we can figure out a safer way out. You and other AI experts came up with AI 2040 Plan A, a recommended plan for how AI can be developed safely, which the speaker has alluded to earlier in her questioning. But I want to dive a bit deeper on Plan A. First, state on the record what those specific recommendations are and your rationale for making those recommendations. And two, why do you feel like we need to, since you've said, put AI development on ice?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chairs, and thank you, speaker. For mister Cocotayo, you have made statements, including some that allude to this in your testimony, that when it comes to AI, you agree that in order for us to have super advanced AI, we must not do it in a reckless way and lose control, and we need to put it on ice until we can figure out a safer way out. You and other AI experts came up with AI twenty forty plan a, a recommended plan for how AI can be developed safely, which the speaker has alluded to earlier in her questioning. But I wanna dive a bit deeper on plan a. First, state on the record what those specific recommendations are and your rationale for making those recommendations. And and two, why do you feel like we need to, since you've said, put AI development on ice?" }, { "turn_id": 51, "start_sec": 3137.425, "end_sec": 3341.91, "start_hms": "00:52:17", "end_hms": "00:55:41", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "Thank you. There's a lot to get into here, so I'm afraid I'll have to be kind of brief. But I'm happy to answer follow-up questions if desired. Yeah. AI 2040 Plan A is a scenario that my organization has put out with a plan for how to solve all these problems and develop AIs in a way that's safe and broadly beneficial that avoids concentrating too much power. In Plan A, The US and China regulate their own domestic industries, quite a lot and also coordinate with each other to get a similar amount of, to basically get similar regulations internationally. Going into somewhat more detail about how it works, basically, first, they, have inspectors fly back and forth to count the chips in the major data centers so that, they can make sure that all of the chips on the major data centers in both countries are basically following the rules that they're going to agree to. And then they, set up some data centers to serve customers, called the inference data And those ones are set up to only run existing models and not do training runs. Then they have other data centers, which are the training data centers, which is where the research happens and where the development happens. Those ones are supposed to be fully transparent. So the activity on those data centers is published to the internet. Once that foundation is set in place and you have inspectors from multiple countries confirming that it's in place, then you solve the problem of having to trust. You don't have to worry that the other country is, cheating on whatever rules you agree to because you can just see exactly what's going on their research data centers. And then you can agree to further rules. You can agree to rules like, for example, how about we don't train our AIs to code, to hack, to autonomously conduct AI research? We can train our AIs to do other things, but not those things, for example. And once you've agreed to a rule like that, then you'll just be able to see that it's being complied with because of the way that you have this transparency infrastructure set up. Also, it's going to be easier to decide what rules to agree on once you have this transparency infrastructure set up because, the whole world can see what's going on in these research and development data centers. And so there can be an actual scientific conversation, a public scientific conversation about what's happening. You know, do we like this? Do we not like this? What are the pros and cons of this particular thing that's being done and so forth? And that scientific conversation can happen in the open, and it can accelerate humanity's process of figuring out where to draw the line between what types of development are good and what types of development are not good. There's more I can get into, but I think that would be a summary of the positive vision that we lay out in Plan A. Now, obviously, that's quite different from how things are currently done. Right now, we have private companies that are racing each other in conditions of extreme secrecy and extreme, tension and competitive dynamics. And I think that's, that's extremely dangerous for all the reasons that we've described. So back to your original question, a summary of my position is we have to stop the companies from doing this incredibly dangerous thing that they're currently doing and currently planning to do, and then figure out a different, safer, more power distributed way to proceed. And, Plan A is our sketch of what that might look like. Thank you. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. There's a lot to to get into here, so I'm afraid I'll have to be kinda brief. But I'm happy to answer follow-up questions if desired. Yeah. AI twenty forty plan a is a scenario that my organization has put out with a plan for how to how to solve all these problems and develop AIs in a way that's safe and broadly beneficial that avoids concentrating too much power. In plan a, The US and China regulate their own domestic industries, quite a lot and also coordinate with each other to get a similar amount of, to to basically get similar regulations internationally. Into... Going into somewhat more detail about how it works, basically, first, they, have inspectors fly back and forth to count the chips in the major data centers so that, they can make sure that all of the chips on the major major data centers in both countries are basically following the rules that they're going to agree to. And then they, set up some data centers to serve customers, called the inference data And those ones are set up to only run existing models and not do training runs. Then they have other data centers, which are the training data centers, which is where the research happens and where the development happens. Those ones are supposed to be fully transparent. So the activity on those data centers is published to the internet. Once that foundation is set in place and you have inspectors from multiple countries confirming that it's in place, then you solve the problem of having to trust. You don't have to worry that the other country is, you know, cheating on whatever rules you agree to because you can just see exactly how... Exactly what's going on on their research data centers. And then you can agree to further rules. You can agree to rules like, for example, how about we don't train our AIs to code, to hack, to autonomously conduct AI research? We can train our AIs to do other things, but not those things, for example. And once you've agreed to a rule like that, then you'll just be able to see that it's being complied with because of the way that you have this transparency infrastructure set up. Also, it's gonna be easier to decide what rules to agree on once you have this transparency infrastructure set up because, the whole world can see what's going on in these research and development data centers. And so there can be an actual scientific conversation, a public scientific conversation about what's happening. You know, do we like this? Do we not like this? What are the pros and cons of this particular thing that's being done and so forth? And that scientific conversation can happen in the open, and it can accelerate humanity's process of figuring out where to draw the line between what types of development are good and what types of development are not good. There's more I can get into, but I think that would be a summary of the positive vision that we lay out in plan a. Now, obviously, that's quite different from how things are currently done. Right now, we have private companies that are racing each other in conditions of extreme secrecy and extreme, you know, tension and competitive dynamics. And I think that's, that's extremely dangerous for all the reasons that we've described. So back to your original question, my high level... Know, my my... A summary of my position is we have to stop the companies from doing this incredibly dangerous thing that they're currently doing and currently planning to do, and then figure out a different, safer, more power distributed way to proceed. And, you know, plan a is our sketch of what that might look like. Thank you. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 52, "start_sec": 3343.27, "end_sec": 3347.35, "start_hms": "00:55:43", "end_hms": "00:55:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all. For the final question for this panel, Council Member Brewer.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all. For the final question for this panel, council member Brewer." }, { "turn_id": 53, "start_sec": 3352.835, "end_sec": 3380.33, "start_hms": "00:55:52", "end_hms": "00:56:20", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Thank you very quickly. In other industries, you have a kill switch, you have independent validation, you have ban on deceptive safety claims. Will any of these work in this industry? Because, obviously, what we want is great medical research, immigration policy improves, brave small businesses, all the good things. Do any of these suggestions that are considered here or California work... Will they work with this industry?", "text_unedited": "Thank you very quickly. In other industries, you have a kill switch, you have independent validation, you have ban on deceptive safety claims. Will any of these work in this industry? Because, obviously, what we want is great medical research, immigration policy improves, brave small businesses, all the good things. Do any of these suggestions that are considered here or California work... Will work... Will they work with this industry?" }, { "turn_id": 54, "start_sec": 3385.705, "end_sec": 3401.88, "start_hms": "00:56:25", "end_hms": "00:56:41", "speaker_name": "Jacob Coxon", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "My, my position is that, we need some form of slowdown on frontier model development. These other mechanisms may be helpful in the short term, but in the long term, I believe that's that's the only solution to the problem.", "text_unedited": "My, my position is that, we need we need some form of slowdown on frontier model development. These other other mechanisms may be helpful in the short term, but in the long term, I believe that's that's the only the only solution to the problem." }, { "turn_id": 55, "start_sec": 3405.56, "end_sec": 3406.84, "start_hms": "00:56:45", "end_hms": "00:56:46", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "How do we slow them down?", "text_unedited": "How do we slow them down?" }, { "turn_id": 56, "start_sec": 3411.935, "end_sec": 3412.655, "start_hms": "00:56:51", "end_hms": "00:56:52", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Okay.", "text_unedited": "Okay." }, { "turn_id": 57, "start_sec": 3412.975, "end_sec": 3447.235, "start_hms": "00:56:52", "end_hms": "00:57:27", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I just want to really thank this panel for being here. Jacob, we really appreciate you coming from out of town and sharing your thoughts, very much for being here. Thank you to the other panelists. We really appreciate your expertise, your insights, your bravery, courage in coming forward to share these critical safety concerns and to help inform our work. And we look forward to additional comments you have on the 10 pieces of legislation that we're hearing today and additional legislation that the city council may consider. So thank you so much to the three of you.", "text_unedited": "I just wanna really thank this panel for being here. Jacob, we really appreciate you coming coming from out of town and sharing your thoughts, very much for being here. Thank you to the other panelists. We really appreciate your expertise, your insights, your bravery, courage in coming forward to share these critical safety concerns and to help inform our work. And we look forward to additional comments you have on the 10 pieces of legislation that we're hearing today and additional legislation that the city council may consider. So thank you so much to the three of you." }, { "turn_id": 58, "start_sec": 3448.035, "end_sec": 3448.515, "start_hms": "00:57:28", "end_hms": "00:57:28", "speaker_name": "Alex Turner", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 7, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 59, "start_sec": 3449.8, "end_sec": 3450.52, "start_hms": "00:57:29", "end_hms": "00:57:30", "speaker_name": "Daniel Kokotajlo", "speaker_role": "Witness — whistleblower panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 6, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 60, "start_sec": 3453.64, "end_sec": 3467.085, "start_hms": "00:57:33", "end_hms": "00:57:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "We're in the company. Okay. We're going to take a five minute break, and then the companies will be on next, for member questions. And we'll have multiple rounds of member questions for the company. So please get yourselves on the list. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "We're in the company. Okay. We're gonna take a five minute break, and then the companies will be on next, for member questions. And we'll have multiple rounds of member questions for the company. So please get yourselves on the list. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 61, "start_sec": 3503.145, "end_sec": 3503.865, "start_hms": "00:58:23", "end_hms": "00:58:23", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "I tried.", "text_unedited": "I tried." }, { "turn_id": 62, "start_sec": 3506.3, "end_sec": 3506.86, "start_hms": "00:58:26", "end_hms": "00:58:26", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "I", "text_unedited": "I" }, { "turn_id": 63, "start_sec": 3518.06, "end_sec": 3518.3, "start_hms": "00:58:38", "end_hms": "00:58:38", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 9, "text_clean": "Tried.", "text_unedited": "tried." }, { "turn_id": 64, "start_sec": 3643.945, "end_sec": 3646.265, "start_hms": "01:00:43", "end_hms": "01:00:46", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 14, "text_clean": "Check. Check.", "text_unedited": "Check. Check." }, { "turn_id": 65, "start_sec": 3931.775, "end_sec": 3938.31, "start_hms": "01:05:31", "end_hms": "01:05:38", "speaker_name": "Sergeant-at-Arms", "speaker_role": "Sergeant-at-Arms", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 0, "text_clean": "Quiet, please. Wiley, take your seats.", "text_unedited": "Quiet, please. Wiley, take your seats." }, { "turn_id": 66, "start_sec": 4012.195, "end_sec": 4056.08, "start_hms": "01:06:52", "end_hms": "01:07:36", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. We're going to start. Let me just also mention, we have numerous panels today. Our next panel are going to be the companies, We're going to do rounds of questions, multiple rounds from the members. Following that, we will have the city agencies. And following that, we have numerous whistleblower panels. So for any Council Member that has a whistleblower question, encourage you to please ask additional panelists those questions. And we also have additional, testimony from safety experts, academics, the public, etcetera. So I'll turn it over to Chair De La Rosa to call the next panel. Thank you so much. So we will be joined virtually", "text_unedited": "Okay. We're gonna start. Let me just also mention, we have numerous panels today. Our next panel are gonna be the companies, and we'll... We're gonna do rounds of questions, multiple rounds from the members. Following that, we will have the city agencies. And following that, we have numerous whistleblower panels. So for any council member that has a whistleblower question, encourage you to please ask additional panelists those questions. And we also have additional, testimony from safety experts, academics, the public, etcetera. So I'll turn it over to chair De La Rosa to call the next panel. Thank you so much. So we will be joined virtually" }, { "turn_id": 67, "start_sec": 4056.32, "end_sec": 4084.11, "start_hms": "01:07:36", "end_hms": "01:08:04", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "By Morgan Dwyer, head of policy and development and operations at OpenAI, Shane Cahill, AI policy director at Meta. Alice Friend, director of AI and emerging tech policy at Google. And Logan Graham, the head of Frontier Red Team and Anthropic. I'll turn it over, to the council for swearing the panel in.", "text_unedited": "by Morgan Dwyer, head of policy and development and operations at OpenAI, Shane Cahill, AI policy director at Meta. Alice Friend, director of AI and emerging tech policy at Google. And Logan Graham, the head of Frontier Red Team and Anthropic. I'll turn it over, to the council for swearing the panel in." }, { "turn_id": 68, "start_sec": 4085.07, "end_sec": 4098.855, "start_hms": "01:08:05", "end_hms": "01:08:18", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "So for each members of this panel, do each of you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in your testimony before this committee and to respond honestly to Council Member questions? Please respond one at a time.", "text_unedited": "So for each members of this panel, do each of you affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in your testimony before this committee and to respond honestly to council member questions? Please respond one at a time." }, { "turn_id": 69, "start_sec": 4101.63, "end_sec": 4104.75, "start_hms": "01:08:21", "end_hms": "01:08:24", "speaker_name": "Unidentified Witness", "speaker_role": "Witness — company panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Yes. Yes. Yes.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Yes. Yes." }, { "turn_id": 70, "start_sec": 4105.07, "end_sec": 4107.31, "start_hms": "01:08:25", "end_hms": "01:08:27", "speaker_name": "Unidentified Witness", "speaker_role": "Witness — company panel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 17, "text_clean": "Yes. Yes. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Yes. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 71, "start_sec": 4110.27, "end_sec": 4111.63, "start_hms": "01:08:30", "end_hms": "01:08:31", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "They have a five minute opening.", "text_unedited": "They have a five minute opening." }, { "turn_id": 72, "start_sec": 4114.555, "end_sec": 4116.715, "start_hms": "01:08:34", "end_hms": "01:08:36", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Okay. So we'll begin,", "text_unedited": "Okay. So we'll begin," }, { "turn_id": 73, "start_sec": 4117.435, "end_sec": 4122.795, "start_hms": "01:08:37", "end_hms": "01:08:42", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "With the opening statements from each of the companies. Morgan, you may begin.", "text_unedited": "with the opening statements from each of the companies. Morgan, you may begin." }, { "turn_id": 74, "start_sec": 4125.515, "end_sec": 4412.805, "start_hms": "01:08:45", "end_hms": "01:13:32", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Thank you, Speaker Menin and members of the city council for the opportunity to participate today. My name is Dr. Morgan Dwyer, and I lead OpenAI's policy development and operations team. I am a scientist and engineer by training, but I have spent most of my career in public service, including at the White House, the Pentagon, and the Department of Commerce. I share your commitment to ensuring that technology is developed safely and that its benefits are widely shared, a commitment that is also at the heart of OpenAI's mission. AI can help scientists develop new cancer treatments, help entrepreneurs build and grow businesses, and help protect critical infrastructure by addressing cybersecurity threats. And in New York City, we are already seeing AI's benefits. New Yorkers are using AI to run small businesses, communicate across languages, navigate health care, and improve public services. And that's why we take the responsibility seriously to ensure that our tools are safe. And our partnerships with local institutions and community organizations help put that responsibility into practice. In health care, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center is using ChatGPT to support medical research. In education, we are a founding partner of the American Federation of Teachers National Academy for AI Instruction, which has a flagship facility, in Lower Manhattan. And in cybersecurity, we have committed $1 billion to facilitate access to our most advanced models, to provide training and technical support to cyber defenders, and we are working with the Port Authority and with New York State. But opportunity must go hand in hand with safety. At OpenAI, we design and train our models to prioritize safety from the start. We filter out harmful and sensitive data during model training. We evaluate our systems against a range of risks, including child safety and cybersecurity, and we monitor for failures of our safeguards. We also work with a range of third party evaluators and red teamers and submit our most advanced models to the federal government for predeployment national security testing. In response to the recent Hugging Face incident, we have taken a number of concrete steps. When we learned of the incident, we stopped cyber evaluations and quarantined the internal research model that was, principally responsible for the incident. We bolstered our monitoring and security infrastructure, expanded barriers that limit what AI systems can access during training, and strengthened our incident response practices. We also sought independent review of the incident and published the results. We believe it's important to be transparent with the public, with policymakers, with researchers, and with other companies so that we can all work together to improve safety. We also believe that working with government is essential to advancing safety. We support New York's RAISE Act and are exploring ways to help governor Hochul's office strengthen it. We have also endorsed other state legislation that requires third party audits of our safety frameworks and that creates strong requirements and accountability for youth safety. At the federal level, we support robust and finding safety regulation requiring independent assessments, incident reporting, and cybersecurity protections. And in New York City, we support the city council's proposal to strengthen whistleblower protections and to improve the city's preparedness and emergency response. I'll close by noting that we share the city council's goal, AI that expands opportunity for New Yorkers, earns their confidence, and remains accountable to people. I look forward to your questions.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker Menon and members of the city council for the opportunity to participate today. My name is doctor Morgan Dwyer, and I lead OpenAI's policy development and operations team. I am a scientist and engineer by training, but I have spent most of my career in public service, including at the White House, the Pentagon, and the Department of Commerce. I share your commitment to ensuring that technology is developed safely and that its benefits are widely shared, a commitment that is also at the heart of OpenAI's mission. AI can help scientists develop new cancer treatments, help entrepreneurs build and grow businesses, and help protect critical infrastructure by addressing cybersecurity threats. And in New York City, we are already seeing AI's benefits. New Yorkers are using AI to run small businesses, communicate across languages, navigate health care, and improve public services. And that's why we take the responsibility seriously to ensure that our tools are safe. And our partnerships with local institutions and community organizations help put that responsibility into practice. In health care, Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center is using CHAT GPT to support medical research. In education, we are a founding partner of the American Federation of Teachers National Academy for AI Instruction, which has a flagship facility, in Lower Manhattan. And in cybersecurity, we have committed $1,000,000,000 to facilitate access to our most advanced models, to provide training and technical support to cyber defenders, and we are working with the Port Authority and with New York State. But opportunity must go hand in hand with safety. At OpenAI, we design and train our models to prioritize safety from the start. We filter out harmful and sensitive data during model training. We evaluate our systems against a range of risks, including child safety and cybersecurity, and we monitor for failures of our safeguards. We also work with a range of third party evaluators and red teamers and submit our most advanced models to the federal government for predeployment national security testing. In response to the recent Hugging Face incident, we have taken a number of concrete steps. When we learned of the incident, we stopped cyber evaluations and quarantined the internal research model that was, principally responsible for the incident. We bolstered our monitoring and security infrastructure, expanded barriers that limit what AI systems can access during training, and strengthened our incident response practices. We also sought independent review of the incident and published the results. We believe it's important to be transparent with the public, with policymakers, with researchers, and with other companies so that we can all work together to improve safety. We also believe that working with government is essential to advancing safety. We support New York's RAISE Act and are exploring ways to help governor Hochul's office strengthen it. We have also endorsed other state legislation that requires third party audits of our safety frameworks and that creates strong requirements and accountability for youth safety. At the federal level, we support robust and finding safety regulation requiring independent assessments, incident reporting, and cybersecurity protections. And in New York City, we support the city council's proposal to strengthen whistleblower protections and to improve the city's preparedness and emergency response. I'll close by noting that we share the city council's goal, AI that expands opportunity for New Yorkers, earns their confidence, and remains accountable to people. I look forward to your questions." }, { "turn_id": 75, "start_sec": 4415.11, "end_sec": 4418.15, "start_hms": "01:13:35", "end_hms": "01:13:38", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. We'll now hear from Logan Graham at Anthropic.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. We'll now hear from Logan Graham at Anthropic." }, { "turn_id": 76, "start_sec": 4425.685, "end_sec": 4432.245, "start_hms": "01:13:45", "end_hms": "01:13:52", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Hold on one second. You're muted. There you go. How about now? We hear you. Right.", "text_unedited": "Hold on one second. You're muted. There you go. How about now? We hear you. Right." }, { "turn_id": 77, "start_sec": 4433.045, "end_sec": 4679.425, "start_hms": "01:13:53", "end_hms": "01:17:59", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Speaker Menin and members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Logan Graham. I lead Anthropic's Frontier Red team. It's my team's job to do the science of finding the most dangerous capabilities of our AI systems. We then work with a number of other teams across Anthropic to ensure that our models don't do things they shouldn't. AI is powerful enough that getting this wrong has real consequences for individuals, institutions, public trust. My team is one of many at Anthropic built to specifically make sure that that doesn't happen. We believe that our models have immense potential to enhance our lives. I dream, for example, of a world where we can cure diseases like the ones that I grew up with and where the infrastructure that we all rely on every day is secure. But we also believe that such a powerful technology has risks. That means that we have to develop and deploy it safely. My team and I work every day to make sure that that potential is fully realized. We welcome smart regulation, and we've actively advocated for it in New York State, across the country, and around the world. That includes working with state and federal leaders on concrete measures like independent evaluators and disclosure of risk assessments and safety incidents. And so we're glad that the city council is having this hearing and at such an important moment in the development of AI. Anthropic fundamentally was founded on the belief that the promises of AI to make everyone's life better are extraordinary. But if we're going to secure its benefits, we have to work relentlessly to do the science of mitigating the risks. We are a public benefit corporation, which means that our board is legally obligated to weigh our mission of safe AI, not just for profit. We take that obligation very seriously, and we put it into practice. We were among the first AI companies to publish a framework that ties how capable the model is to the safeguards it must have before release. When one of our models proved exceptionally good at exploiting software vulnerabilities for the first time just this year, we held it back from public release. Instead, we gave vetted critical infrastructure organizations and other defenders control the access to use it defensively, patching flaws before attackers could exploit them. We have stopped and redone work when something looked wrong, even if that meant conducting additional testing and training on our models before they were released. And we've consistently called for outside oversight. For example, we support New York's RAISE Act, and we believe strongly in the act's transparency and reporting requirements. I want to emphasize that we share the council's goal of protecting New Yorkers while preserving what AI can do to improve their lives, and state and local governments have a role to play in that effort. Today, we're working closely with state and city leaders to safeguard critical infrastructure and to harden cybersecurity capabilities, and we want to continue that work. This includes, for example, working directly with the New York City Cyber Command as part of our program that provides free Claude credits and training to state and local governments for cyber defense. At Anthropic, we believe in New York City, and we're making big investments here. New York is where AI is being put to work in finance, media, culture, and where we employ nearly a thousand of my colleagues. The ongoing dialogue we have with you and your team could not be more important than right now. With that, I thank you, and I look forward to your questions.", "text_unedited": "Speaker Menon and members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Logan Graham. I lead Anthropic's Frontier Red team. It's my team's job to do the science of finding the most dangerous capabilities of our AI systems. We then work with a number of other teams across Anthropic to ensure that our models don't do things they shouldn't. AI is powerful enough that getting this wrong has real consequences for individuals, institutions, public trust. My team is one of many at Anthropic built to specifically make sure that that doesn't happen. We believe that our models have immense potential to enhance our lives. I dream, for example, of a world where we can cure diseases like the ones that I grew up with and where the infrastructure that we all rely on every day is secure. But we also believe that such a powerful technology has risks. That means that we have to develop and deploy it safely. My team and I work every day to make sure that that potential is fully realized. We welcome smart regulation, and we've actively advocated for it in New York State, across the country, and around the world. That includes working with state and federal leaders on concrete measures like independent evaluators and disclosure of risk assessments and safety incidents. And so we're glad that the city council is having this hearing and at such an important moment in the development of AI. Anthropic fundamentally was founded on the belief that the promises of AI to make everyone's life better are extraordinary. But if we're going to secure its benefits, we have to work relentlessly to do the science of mitigating the risks. We are a public benefit corporation, which means that our board is legally obligated to weigh our mission of safe AI, not just for profit. We take that obligation very seriously, and we put it into practice. We were among the first AI companies to publish a framework that ties how capable the model is to the safeguards it must have before release. When one of our models proved exceptionally good at exploiting software vulnerabilities for the first time just this year, we held it back from public release. Instead, we gave vetted critical infrastructure organizations and other defenders control the access to use it defensively, patching flaws before attackers could exploit them. We have stopped and redone work when something looked wrong, even if that meant conducting additional testing and training on our models before they were released. And we've consistently called for outside oversight. For example, we support New York's RAISE Act, and we believe strongly in the act's transparency and reporting requirements. I wanna emphasize that we we share the council's goal of protecting New Yorkers while preserving what AI can do to improve their lives, and state and local governments have a role to play in that effort. Today, we're working closely with state and city leaders to safeguard critical infrastructure and to harden cybersecurity capabilities, and we wanna continue that work. This includes, for example, working directly with the New York City Cyber Command as part of our program that provides free claw credits and training to state and local governments for cyber defense. At Anthropic, we believe in New York City, and we're making big investments here. New York is where AI is being put to work in finance, media, culture, and where we employ nearly a thousand of my colleagues. The ongoing dialogue we have with you and your team could not be more important than right now. With that, I thank you, and I look forward to your questions." }, { "turn_id": 78, "start_sec": 4680.785, "end_sec": 4684.625, "start_hms": "01:18:00", "end_hms": "01:18:04", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Up next, Shane Cahill at Meta.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Up next, Shane Cahill at Meta." }, { "turn_id": 79, "start_sec": 4687.12, "end_sec": 4860.78, "start_hms": "01:18:07", "end_hms": "01:21:00", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Thank you. Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa, and members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. My name is Shane Cahill, and I'm an AI policy director at Meta. At Meta, we are committed to delivering personal superintelligence safely and securely while making it widely available so that it empowers people in ways that improve their lives. We just released the world's first personal AI agent built for everyone. We created Muse with safety, security, and privacy built in from the beginning to be a widely available personal AI agent for people and small businesses, like the more than a 180,000 small businesses, right there in New York City. New Yorkers across all walks of life are using Muse to execute administrative goals or tasks, manage personal or operational budgets, improve health, and be more efficient with their time. Superintelligence will be among the most important technologies in history, and ensuring that New York and America lead in AI innovation is essential to our prosperity, security, and global competitiveness. We recognize that every model developer has a responsibility to build and deploy it safely. Our commitment to safety is core to everything we do. That means moving at the pace required to evaluate risks and validate safeguards, not treating safely as a one time check. We approach safety holistically through a layered approach. For example, under our meta superintelligence scaling framework, before we release an AI model, we evaluate the model for risks and build safeguards to mitigate them. We also work with external experts, industry partners, and government stakeholders as the technology and the science of evaluating AI continues to evolve. We also recently joined other labs in signing onto a set of principles and that set a floor for safe development, including robust internal controls, independent external evaluation of whether those controls are operating as intended, and independent board committee oversight. People will only embrace AI if they have confidence it works in alignment with people's intentions. That confidence must be earned through rigorous safety work and transparency. We're happy to serve as a resource for the city as you engage on these important issues. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Speaker Menon, Czech chair Della Rasa, and members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to be here today. My name is Shane Cahill, and I'm an AI policy director at Meta. At Meta, we are committed to delivering personal superintelligence safely and securely while making it widely available so that it empowers people in ways that improve their lives. We just released the world's first personal AI agent built for everyone. We created Muse with safety, security, and privacy built in from the beginning to be a widely available personal AI agent for people and small businesses, like the more than a 180,000 small businesses, right there in New York City. New Yorkers across all walks of life are using Muse to execute administrative goals or tasks, manage personal or operational budgets, improve health, and be more efficient with their time. Superintelligence will be among the most important technologies in history, and ensuring that New York and America lead in AI innovation is essential to our prosperity, security, and global competitiveness. We recognize that every model developer has a responsibility to build and deploy it safely. Our commitment to safety is core to everything we do. That means moving at the pace required to evaluate risks and validate safeguards, not treating safely as a one time check. We approach safety holistically through a layered approach. For example, under our meta superintelligence scaling framework, before we release an AI model, we evaluate the model for risks and build safeguards to mitigate them. We also work with external experts, industry partners, and government stakeholders as the technology and the science of evaluating AI continues to evolve. We also recently joined other labs in signing onto a set of principles and that set a floor for safe development, including robust internal controls, independent external evaluation of whether those controls are operating as intended, and independent board committee oversight. People will only embrace AI if they have confidence it works in alignment with people's intentions. That confidence must be earned through rigorous safety work and transparency. We're happy to serve as a resource for the city as you engage on these important issues. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 80, "start_sec": 4862.06, "end_sec": 4865.74, "start_hms": "01:21:02", "end_hms": "01:21:05", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. And finally, we have Alice Friend at Google.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. And finally, we have Alice Friend at Google." }, { "turn_id": 81, "start_sec": 4868.885, "end_sec": 5165.585, "start_hms": "01:21:08", "end_hms": "01:26:05", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa, and members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Alice Friend, and I serve as director for AI and emerging tech policy at Google. While my appearance at this hearing may be virtual, please know that New York City is a vital home for Google. With nearly 16,000 employees working across our Chelsea, Hudson Square, and Pier 57 campuses, we care deeply about the safety, economic dynamism, and digital resilience of this city. Our goal at Google has always been to improve the lives of as many people as possible through technology. Every time people use technology to solve a real problem, from finding an answer to a question to screening for disease, we take another step towards what we set out to achieve. AI is making it possible to solve economic, scientific, and social problems faster than ever, but we know that it poses challenges as well. To unlock the benefits and address the challenges of AI, we take a bold but responsible approach, emphasizing cutting edge research to guide our decision making and inform the development of our AI safety and security approaches. We are also committed to publishing this research and to being transparent about our practices. Our internal governance focuses on responsibility throughout the AI development life cycle, covering model development, application deployment, and post launch monitoring. We identify and assess AI risks through a broad range of approaches, which include research, input from internal and external experts, and adversarial testing. We evaluate our models and systems against benchmarks for safety, privacy, and security, and we build mitigations using techniques like safety fine tuning, out of model filters, and robust provenance solutions. Since 2019, we have published annual AI progress reports to share how we apply these responsible practices to our AI technology development and deployment. We are at a pivotal moment in AI development. Recent advances in the capabilities of Frontier AI models in areas like cybersecurity and biology have highlighted the need for appropriate safeguards and protocols for the most advanced models. In addition, the widespread adoption of AI tools has raised concerns about consumer well-being. To confront these challenges, Google has long called for an approach to AI that is both bold and responsible, and we strongly support a pragmatic, technology neutral, and evidence based regulatory framework. Because the risks associated with the most advanced AI models often touch on issues affecting national security, our view is that the country would be best served by a comprehensive framework enacted at the federal level. We also support the establishment of an independent industry funded body that could operate under federal oversight and establish guardrails to protect the public based on widely adopted technical standards. Examples of such organizations and other industries include the North American Electric Reliability Corporation and the American Medical Association. For widespread consumer AI applications like chatbots, we believe governments around the country can draw on and, in some cases, amend existing laws and rules to address real world outputs and specific harms. We believe that if something is illegal without AI, it is still illegal with AI. We share the council's commitment to safety, transparency, and public trust. To achieve this, the most effective safeguards are anchored in national technical standards and harmonized across state and federal levels. As we prepare to work with New York State's new DIGIT office under the RAISE Act to address catastrophic risks, aligning local policies with broader frameworks rather than creating a fragmented patchwork is essential to keeping New York City a premier global hub for innovation. Finally, I would like to note that to ensure our formal submission to the council is as thorough and responsive as possible, We will submit our finalized written testimony for the record shortly after today's hearing so we can additionally address questions and feedback raised by the council today. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify at this important hearing. I look forward to your questions.", "text_unedited": "Speaker Menon, Chair de la Rosa, and members of the council, thank you for the opportunity to speak with you today. My name is Alice Friend, and I serve as director for AI and emerging tech policy at Google. While my appearance at this hearing may be virtual, please know that New York City is a vital home for Google. With nearly 16,000 employees working across our Chelsea, Hudson Square, and Pier 57 campuses, we care deeply about the safety, economic dynamism, and digital resilience of this city. Our goal at Google has always been to improve the lives of as many people as possible through technology. Every time people use technology to solve a real problem, from finding an answer to a question to screening for disease, we take another step towards what we set out to achieve. AI is making it possible to solve economic, scientific, and social problems faster than ever, but we know that it poses challenges as well. To unlock the benefits and address the challenges of AI, we take a bold but responsible approach, emphasizing cutting edge research to guide our decision making and inform the development of our AI safety and security approaches. We are also committed to publishing this research and to being transparent about our practices. Our internal governance focuses on responsibility throughout the AI development life cycle, covering model development, application deployment, and post launch monitoring. We identify and assess AI risks through a broad range of approaches, which include research, input from internal and external experts, and adversarial testing. We evaluate our models and systems against benchmarks for safety, privacy, and security, and we build mitigations using techniques like safety fine tuning, out of model filters, and robust provenance solutions. Since 2019, we have published annual AI progress reports to show... To share how we apply these responsible practices to our AI technology development and deployment. We are at a pivotal moment in AI development. Recent advances in the capabilities of Frontier AI models in areas like cybersecurity and biology have highlighted the need for appropriate safeguards and protocols for the most advanced models. In addition, the widespread adoption of AI tools has raised concerns about consumer well-being. To confront these challenges, Google has long called for an approach to AI that is both bold and responsible, and we strongly support a pragmatic, technology neutral, and evidence based regulatory framework. Because the risks associated with the most advanced AI models often touch on issues affecting national security, our view is that the country would be best served by a comprehensive framework enacted at the federal level. We also support the establishment of an independent industry funded body that could operate under federal oversight and establish guardrails to protect the public based on widely adopted technical standards. Examples of such organizations and other industries include the North American Electric Reliability Corporation and the American Medical Association. For widespread consumer AI applications like chatbots, we believe governments around the country can draw on and, in some cases, amend existing laws and rules to address real world outputs and specific harms. We believe that if something is illegal without AI, it is still illegal with AI. We share the council's commitment to safety, transparency, and public trust. To achieve this, the most effective safeguards are anchored in national technical standards and harmonized across state and federal levels. As we prepare to work with New York State's new DIGIT office under the RAISE Act to address catastrophic risks, aligning local policies with broader frameworks rather than creating a fragmented patchwork is essential to keeping New York City a premier global hub for innovation. Finally, I would like to note that to ensure our formal submission to the council is as thorough and responsive as possible, We will submit our finalized written testimony for the record shortly after today's hearing so we can additionally address questions and feedback raised by the council today. Thank you again for the opportunity to testify at this important hearing. I look forward to your questions." }, { "turn_id": 82, "start_sec": 5166.84, "end_sec": 5199.98, "start_hms": "01:26:06", "end_hms": "01:26:39", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Thank you very much to this panel. So I'm going to begin with questions, and then, I will turn it over to the technology chair for her questions. And then we're going to open it up to all the members for their questions. So to this panel, we just heard incredibly compelling testimony from our whistleblower panel. As you all four are under oath, we want to hear how each of you quantify the risk imposed by AI in the worst case catastrophic scenario. I'm going to start with you, Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Thank you very much to this panel. So I'm gonna begin with questions, and then, I will turn it over to the technology chair for her questions. And then we're gonna open it up to all the members for their questions. So to this panel, we just heard incredibly compelling testimony from our whistleblower panel. As you all four are under oath, we wanna hear how each of you quantify the risk imposed by AI in the worst case catastrophic scenario. I'm gonna start with you, miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 83, "start_sec": 5204.385, "end_sec": 5227.68, "start_hms": "01:26:44", "end_hms": "01:27:07", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I don't know. I also don't think it matters whether it's 1% or 10% or a 20% chance that something catastrophic will go wrong. None of these levels is remotely acceptable. We should not train models that we cannot make an extremely strong case that we can keep under human control.", "text_unedited": "I don't know. I also don't think it matters whether it's 1% or 10% or a 20% chance that something catastrophic will go wrong. None of these levels is remotely acceptable. We should not train models that we cannot make an extremely strong case that we can keep under human control." }, { "turn_id": 84, "start_sec": 5228.24, "end_sec": 5246.485, "start_hms": "01:27:08", "end_hms": "01:27:26", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm sorry. But to say you don't know and it doesn't matter is flippant at best. This idea that if you're a pharmaceutical company and you're developing a drug and you say, I don't know if it's going to kill people, I honestly am incredulous at that answer.", "text_unedited": "I'm sorry. But to say you don't know and it doesn't matter is flippant at best. This idea that if you're a pharmaceutical company and you're developing a drug and you say, I don't know if it's gonna kill people, I I just... I I I honestly am incredulous at that answer." }, { "turn_id": 85, "start_sec": 5249.93, "end_sec": 5291.19, "start_hms": "01:27:29", "end_hms": "01:28:11", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I would say that the percentage chance doesn't matter. What matters is the commitment to safety, and that is what OpenAI is committed to doing. We evaluate our models for a wide range of threats from cybersecurity to child safety. We work with a robust set of third party evaluators and red teamers, and we work with the federal government to assess those national security and catastrophic risks that you are referencing. So we take safety very seriously, and our focus is on ensuring that when we release a model into the world, we believe it to be safe.", "text_unedited": "I would say that the percentage chance doesn't matter. What matters is the commitment to safety, and that is what OpenAI is committed to doing. We evaluate our models for a wide range of threats from cybersecurity to child safety. We work with a robust set of third party evaluators and red teamers, and we work with the federal government to assess those national security and catastrophic risks that you are referencing. So we take safety very seriously, and our focus on... Is on ensuring that when we release a model into the world, we believe it to be safe." }, { "turn_id": 86, "start_sec": 5291.67, "end_sec": 5331.915, "start_hms": "01:28:11", "end_hms": "01:28:51", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So a couple comments on that. If you can't quantify what the safety risk is, how do you know that the product is safe? And then secondly, I want to ask you, in particular, on October 1, 2026, The Wall Street Journal reported that OpenAI terminated three members of its safety team allegedly for their access, mishandling, and or sharing confidential company information with a third party AI safety organization. OpenAI reportedly stated that the employees violate company policies governing access to and handling of sensitive information. Critics, meanwhile, question whether the dismissals could discourage employees from raising safety concerns. So why were these employees fired?", "text_unedited": "So a couple comments on that. If you can't quantify what the safety risk is, how do you know that the product is safe? And then secondly, I wanna ask you, in particular, on 10/01/2026, The Wall Street Journal reported that OpenAI terminated three members of its safety team allegedly for their access, mishandling, and or sharing confidential company information with a third party AI safety organization. OpenAI reportedly stated that the employees violate company policies governing access to and handling of sensitive information. Critics, meanwhile, question whether the dismissals could discourage employees from raising safety concerns. So why were these employees fired?" }, { "turn_id": 87, "start_sec": 5335.36, "end_sec": 5360.714, "start_hms": "01:28:55", "end_hms": "01:29:20", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I was not involved in that decision. I don't work in HR or on those employees' teams. What I do know is that OpenAI has strong internal policies, that protect against retaliation for employees that report safety concerns. I also know that we respect employees' rights, to communicate safety concerns to relevant government authorities.", "text_unedited": "I was not involved in that decision. I don't work in HR or on those employees' teams. What I do know is that OpenAI has strong internal policies, that protect against retaliation for employees that report safety concerns. I also know that we respect employees' rights, to communicate safety concerns to relevant government authorities." }, { "turn_id": 88, "start_sec": 5360.955, "end_sec": 5368.61, "start_hms": "01:29:20", "end_hms": "01:29:28", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So just to be clear on what I'm asking, I'm asking directly whether safety related advocacy played any role in these terminations.", "text_unedited": "So just to be clear on what I'm asking, I'm asking directly whether safety related advocacy played any role in these terminations." }, { "turn_id": 89, "start_sec": 5370.37, "end_sec": 5382.135, "start_hms": "01:29:30", "end_hms": "01:29:42", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I don't know. I know that we have strong internal policies, that protect employees from retaliation if they raise safety concerns, to leadership.", "text_unedited": "I don't know. I know that we have strong internal policies, that protect employees from retaliation if they raise safety concerns, to leadership." }, { "turn_id": 90, "start_sec": 5383.015, "end_sec": 5399.82, "start_hms": "01:29:43", "end_hms": "01:29:59", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm going to move on to the other companies. Same question. The first question that I asked, which is, we want to hear how each of you quantify the risks imposed by AI in the worst catastrophic scenario. So I'm going to go to, Mr. Graham. Are you able to quantify the risk?", "text_unedited": "I'm gonna move on to the other companies. Same question. The first question that I asked, which is, we wanna hear how each of you quantify the risks imposed by AI in the worst catastrophic scenario. So I'm gonna go to, mister Graham. Are you able to quantify the risk?" }, { "turn_id": 91, "start_sec": 5401.1, "end_sec": 5503.7, "start_hms": "01:30:01", "end_hms": "01:31:43", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "From the beginning of our safety work at Anthropic, our fundamental belief is that if not properly safeguarded, the risk might be too high. And so I built and I've led the team at Anthropic that did some of the first thinking around how we quantify risks like this. For the past four years, we focused on issues like biological security and cybersecurity. And the actual process of quantifying those risks is intricate and nuanced, and we learn more every year. And we detail quite a lot of it in documents like our responsible scaling policy, how we think about the threat models of this, all the way up to notions of loss of control and misalignment, which from the beginning of the company, we have tried to lead, the world in the research of. So what I do know today is I feel relatively, sort of more optimistic the industry has moved quite fast to take cybersecurity seriously and biological security. I think documents and policies like responsible scaling policies have so far been fairly effective at taking a cautious approach. However, now we have bigger and bigger threats that might come if we don't properly safeguard them as the models get more and more capable. And so what we do to mitigate that is, number one, put in tremendous amounts of effort across a number of different teams, our own safeguards teams, our research teams, my team, to try to quantify and mitigate this. And it's increasingly important for us to be dramatically more transparent about what we think about these risks. But on that note, as the models increase exponentially,", "text_unedited": "From the beginning of our safety work at Anthropic, our fundamental belief is that if not properly safeguarded, the risk might be too high. And so I built and I've led the team at Anthropic that did some of the first thinking around how we quantify risks like this. For the past four years, we focused on issues like biological security and cybersecurity. And the actual process of quantifying those risks is intricate and nuanced, and we learn more every year. And we detail quite a lot of it in documents like our responsible scaling policy, how we think about the threat models of this, all the way up to notions of loss of control and misalignment, which from the beginning of the company, we have tried to lead, the world in the research of. So what I do know today is I feel relatively, sort of more optimistic the industry has moved quite fast to take cybersecurity seriously and biological security. I think documents and policies like responsible scaling policies have so far been fairly effective at taking a cautious approach. However, now we have bigger and bigger threats that might come if we don't properly safeguard them as the models get more and more capable. And so what we do to to mitigate that is, number one, put in tremendous amounts of effort across a number of different teams, our own safeguards teams, our research teams, my team, to try to to quantify and mitigate this. And it's increasingly important for us to be dramatically more transparent about what we think about these risks. But on that note, as the models increase exponentially," }, { "turn_id": 92, "start_sec": 5503.78, "end_sec": 5509.14, "start_hms": "01:31:43", "end_hms": "01:31:49", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "How can you ensure the public that the safety protocols are increasing exponentially as well?", "text_unedited": "how can you ensure the public that the safety protocols are increasing exponentially as well?" }, { "turn_id": 93, "start_sec": 5510.66, "end_sec": 5553.835, "start_hms": "01:31:50", "end_hms": "01:32:33", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "We share the same concern. I think there are a number of really important things to do here. The first thing is transparency about what we think about safety, the evidence that we have, being transparent about disclosure of incidents. But in addition, you've seen us publicly call for pacing the frontier. If the models are moving very, very fast, we think that we might benefit from slowing down to have more time for safety processes. I think these two together as well as continuing to what we call race to the top and ever strengthen our approaches like responsible scaling policies are the most important things to do right now.", "text_unedited": "We share the same concern. I think there are a number of really important things to do here. The first thing is transparency about what we think about safety, the evidence that we have, being transparent about disclosure of incidents. But in addition, you've seen us publicly call for pacing the frontier. If the models are moving very, very fast, we think that we might benefit from slowing down to have more time for safety processes. I think these two together as well as continuing to what we call race to the top and ever strengthen our approaches like responsible scaling policies are are the most important things to do right now." }, { "turn_id": 94, "start_sec": 5554.235, "end_sec": 5596.11, "start_hms": "01:32:34", "end_hms": "01:33:16", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So, I mean, you say that you want to be more transparent, but you're not really addressing the question. I mean, the question is, can you quantify the risk of something cataclysmic happening? And I do want to say for all four companies, and I know you're not in the chambers, but we do have a chart. For each of your companies had instances where agents went rogue. And in each of those instances, it is not as if any of you notified the public when those occurred. In some instances, it was months after the fact when the public was even notified. And in one instance, for the government of Australia, a general email was sent to them. So this doesn't exactly increase transparency.", "text_unedited": "So, I mean, you say that you wanna be more transparent, but you're not really addressing the question. I mean, the question is, can you quantify the risk of something cataclysmic happening? And I do wanna say for all four companies, and I know you're not in the chambers, but we do have a chart. In e... For each of your companies had instances where agents went rogue. And in each of those instances, it is not as if any of you notified the public when those occurred. In some instances, it was months after the fact when the public was even notified. And in one instance, for the government of Australia, a general email was sent to them. So this doesn't exactly increase transparency." }, { "turn_id": 95, "start_sec": 5604.99, "end_sec": 5607.39, "start_hms": "01:33:24", "end_hms": "01:33:27", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Mr. Graham, do you want to... Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Mister Graham, do you want to... Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 96, "start_sec": 5608.175, "end_sec": 5669.085, "start_hms": "01:33:28", "end_hms": "01:34:29", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. First. In efforts to sort of quantify these risks, we have a number of, quite detailed reports that try to elucidate our entire thinking around this. We increasingly do risk reports in addition to our normal responsible scaling policies where we outline notions of our threat models and how likely we think certain types of these threats are likely to come to pass. And then we look backwards at things that are happening within our own company, and we ask what is the likelihood that these threats might come to pass in the future, including forecasting, surveying researchers at Anthropic as well. And we publish this information. Are those reports publicly available that you referenced? They are. Yes. We report them not just in our, what we call, risk reports, but also when we launch models, we launch, we release detailed multi 100 page reports of these.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. First. In efforts to sort of quantify these risks, we have a number of, you know, quite detailed reports that try to elucidate our entire thinking around this. We increasingly do risk reports in addition to our normal responsible scaling policies where we outline notions of our threat models and how likely we think certain types of these threats are likely to come to pass. And then we look backwards at things that are happening within our own company, and we ask what is the likelihood that these threats might come to pass in the future, including forecasting, surveying researchers at Anthropic as well. And we we publish this information. We are... Excuse me. Are those reports publicly available that you referenced? They are. Yes. We we report them not just in our, what we call, risk reports, but also when we launch models, we launch, we release detailed multi 100 page reports of these." }, { "turn_id": 97, "start_sec": 5670.445, "end_sec": 5677.645, "start_hms": "01:34:30", "end_hms": "01:34:37", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And then I'm now going to turn to Mr. Cahill for the response to that first question on quantifying the risk.", "text_unedited": "And then I'm now gonna turn to mister Cahill for to... For the response to that first question on quantifying the risk." }, { "turn_id": 98, "start_sec": 5680.46, "end_sec": 5708.935, "start_hms": "01:34:40", "end_hms": "01:35:08", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Speaker, thank you very much for the question. First off, we're committed at Meta to building AI safely. Now we have a multilayered approach to this where teams evaluate before deployment, including adversarial testing, applying safeguards, and deploying when only risks are mitigated. We set this out in our public, Meta Superintelligence Scaling Framework and our preparedness reports that go alongside the release of models.", "text_unedited": "Speaker, thank you very much for the question. First off, we're committed at Meta to building AI safely. Now we have a multilayered approach to this where teams evaluate before deployment, including adversarial testing, applying safeguards, and deploying when only risks are mitigated. We set this out in our public, Meta Superintelligence Scaling Framework and our preparedness reports that go alongside the release of models." }, { "turn_id": 99, "start_sec": 5715.39, "end_sec": 5720.43, "start_hms": "01:35:15", "end_hms": "01:35:20", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So can you quantify what the risk is, or you're not able to do that?", "text_unedited": "So can you quantify what the risk is, or you're not able to do that?" }, { "turn_id": 100, "start_sec": 5723.905, "end_sec": 5734.865, "start_hms": "01:35:23", "end_hms": "01:35:34", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Speaker, I don't wish to be imprecise in relation to the question of quantifying. I don't have our framework in front of me right now, but I'd be pleased to follow-up with you afterwards.", "text_unedited": "Speaker, I don't wish to be imprecise in relation to the the question of of quantifying. I don't have our framework in in front of me right now, but I'd be pleased to follow-up with you afterwards." }, { "turn_id": 101, "start_sec": 5736.54, "end_sec": 5752.605, "start_hms": "01:35:36", "end_hms": "01:35:52", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. It's just given the serious safety risks that have been raised here to not be able to quantify what the risk is troubling at best. I'm going to now move on, lastly to Ms. Friend.", "text_unedited": "Okay. It it... It's just given the serious safety risks that have been raised here to not be able to quantify what the risk is is troubling at best. I'm gonna now move on, lastly to miss Friend." }, { "turn_id": 102, "start_sec": 5754.445, "end_sec": 5832.9, "start_hms": "01:35:54", "end_hms": "01:37:12", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, at Google, we take catastrophic risks and their possibility extremely seriously, and we address that in a few ways. One way is that we perform research into producing our own safety frameworks for artificial general intelligence. So we have an AGI safety and security approach. We also have a frontier safety framework, which is our protocols for monitoring our models under development for dangerous capabilities. Those protocols then point to, safety mitigations that we must take if we in fact cross what we call our critical capability levels. Part of our testing and evaluation is of course using commonly, used benchmarks across the industry. Those benchmarks do provide some quantification of the capabilities of the models themselves. But when it comes to forecasting future catastrophic risk, it's not a perfect science at this stage. And in this particular case, academics have noted that there is no reference class on which to base quantitative probabilities. So we all have to be very humble about making such quantitative claims, because there isn't really a rigorous scientific way to do those", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, at Google, we take catastrophic risks and their possibility extremely seriously, and we address that in a few ways. One way is that we perform research into producing our own safety frameworks for artificial general intelligence. So we have an AGI safety and security approach. We also have a frontier safety framework, which is our protocols for monitoring our models under development for dangerous capabilities. Those protocols then point to, safety mitigations that we must take if we in fact cross what we call our critical capability levels. Part of our testing and evaluation is of course using commonly, used benchmarks across the industry. Those benchmarks do provide some quantification of the capabilities of the models themselves. But when it comes to forecasting future catastrophic risk, it's not a perfect science at this stage. And in this particular case, academics have noted that there is no reference class on which to base quantitative probabilities. So we all have to be very humble about making such quantitative claims, because there isn't really a rigorous scientific way to do those" }, { "turn_id": 103, "start_sec": 5836.985, "end_sec": 5882.209, "start_hms": "01:37:16", "end_hms": "01:38:02", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm going to take it then that neither of the four of you... No company here can quantify the risk of something cataclysmic happening. Okay. I'm going to move on. Sam Altman said yesterday that we should accept that, quote, the world should accept some bad things happening as a price of advancing this technology. No one is questioning that the incredible medical and scientific breakthroughs and innovation that AI has brought to this world. But why should the public accept that bad things should be happening, and why should AI companies get to decide what level of risk society must bear? I'm going to go in order. I'm going to start with you, Ms. Dwyer, please.", "text_unedited": "I'm gonna take it then that neither of the four of you... No company here can quantify the risk of something cataclysmic happening. Okay. I'm going to move on. Sam Altman said yesterday that we should accept that, quote, the world should accept some bad things happening as a price of advancing this technology. No one is questioning that the incredible medical and scientific breakthroughs and innovation that they... That AI has brought to this world. But why should the public accept that bad things should be happening, and why should AI companies get to decide what level of risk society must bear? I'm gonna go in order. I'm gonna start with you, miss Dwyer, please." }, { "turn_id": 104, "start_sec": 5884.37, "end_sec": 5939.33, "start_hms": "01:38:04", "end_hms": "01:38:59", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So we think AI has tremendous potential benefits to help solve some of humanity's hardest problems, But no technology is without risks, and there are a wide spectrum of risks. Clearly, some risks are unacceptable, but we also think it's important to get technology into the hands of as many people as possible so that they can benefit from it. And that's why we are focused on safety. We train our models to be safe from the start. We evaluate them against a robust set of risks, and we work with a large network of third party evaluators. We've also supported regulation that requires, third party audits of our safety frameworks as well as regulation that focuses on youth safety and holds us accountable for keeping teens safe.", "text_unedited": "So we think AI has tremendous potential benefits to help solve some of humanity's hardest problems, But no technology is without risks, and there are a wide spectrum of risks. Clearly, some risks are unacceptable, but we also think it's important to get technology into the hands of as many people as possible so that they can benefit from it. And that's why we are focused on safety. We train our models to be safe from the start. We evaluate them against a robust set of risks, and we work with a large network of third party evaluators. We've also supported regulation that requires, third party audits of our safety frameworks as well as regulation that focuses on youth safety and holds us accountable for keeping teens safe." }, { "turn_id": 105, "start_sec": 5940.37, "end_sec": 5966.72, "start_hms": "01:39:00", "end_hms": "01:39:26", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I do have a follow-up to that because it does seem to stretch credulity that the president of your company and his wife each gave $12.5 million to a PAC that opposed candidates to the tune of about $50 million due to their support for AI regulation. So if the company is so committed to AI regulation, why would that pack exist?", "text_unedited": "I I do have a follow-up to that because it it it it does seem to stretch credulity that the president of your company and his wife each gave $12,500,000 to a PAC that opposed candidates to the tune of about $50,000,000 due to their support for AI regulation. So if the company is so committed to AI regulation, why would that pack exist?" }, { "turn_id": 106, "start_sec": 5969.44, "end_sec": 6009.735, "start_hms": "01:39:29", "end_hms": "01:40:09", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I can't speak to personal decisions that OpenAI executives have made in their personal capacity. I can tell you that we have supported, frontier safety regulation across The United States, including endorsing a bill in Illinois that would be the first of its kind to require third party audits of our safety frameworks. We also supported a version of a bill in Massachusetts, which was the first of its kind to reference RSI, which the panel earlier spoke about. So, again, I can speak to our actions, which is to support strong, harmonized frontier safety legislation, including at the state level.", "text_unedited": "So I can't speak to personal decisions that OpenAI executives had made... Have made in their personal capacity. I can tell you that we have supported, frontier safety regulation across The United States, including endorsing a bill in Illinois that would be the first of its kind to require third party audits of our safety frameworks. We also supported a version of a bill in Massachusetts, which was the first of its kind to reference RSI, which the panel earlier spoke about. So, again, I can speak to our actions, which is to support strong, harmonized frontier safety legislation, including at the state level." }, { "turn_id": 107, "start_sec": 6011.735, "end_sec": 6030.3, "start_hms": "01:40:11", "end_hms": "01:40:30", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. I'm going to move on to the other three companies to the answer to the same question about why should the public accept the comments that Mr. Altman made yesterday that the world should accept bad things happening and why should AI companies get to decide what level of risk society must bear. So I'm going to go in order. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Okay. I'm gonna move on to the other three companies to the answer to the same question about why should the public accept the the comments that mister Altman made yesterday that the world should accept bad things happening and why should AI companies get to decide what level of risk society must bear. So I'm gonna go in order. Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 108, "start_sec": 6031.995, "end_sec": 6087.95, "start_hms": "01:40:31", "end_hms": "01:41:27", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. Well, I didn't see all of Mr. Altman's, comments yesterday. I share the, sort of the notion expressed here that, number one, while maximizing the benefits of this technology, you need to minimize the risks, and we should not be comfortable with letting, these risks happen. This is why over the course of, our history and my team's history, we have been, I think, sometimes accused of being overly cautious. I would say, appropriately cautious just this year, withholding our most powerful model in order to just have more time to even think about collectively as, industry as well as government what to do about these capabilities. And, fundamentally, this transcends the labs and industry, from our beginning. We have long supported the role of government here for exactly this reason.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Well, I didn't see all of mister Altman's, comments yesterday. I share the, sort of the notion expressed here that, number one, while maximizing the benefits of this technology, you need to minimize the risks, and we should not be comfortable with letting, these risks happen. This is why over the course of, our history and my team's history, we have been, I think, sometimes accused of being overly cautious. I would say, appropriately cautious just this year, withholding our most powerful model in order to just have more time to even think about collectively as, industry as well as government what to do about these capabilities. And, fundamentally, this transcends the labs and industry, from our beginning. We have long supported the role of government here for exactly this reason." }, { "turn_id": 109, "start_sec": 6090.625, "end_sec": 6091.905, "start_hms": "01:41:30", "end_hms": "01:41:31", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Mister Cahill?" }, { "turn_id": 110, "start_sec": 6099.105, "end_sec": 6163.535, "start_hms": "01:41:39", "end_hms": "01:42:43", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Apologies, speaker. There was a strange moment there with the mute button. Thank you very much for the question. In relation to the quote from Mr. Altman that you read out, I don't see it the same way. We absolutely recognize the risks of AI and the opportunities. That's why we have our scaling framework. That's why we have our preparedness reports. That's why we have teams and teams of people and a multilayered approach to AI safety. One thing I wanted to mention, if I may, is that Meta's vision is to bring personal superintelligence to everyone. And I listened very intently to the panel before us in relation to recursive self improvement. And I just wanted to mention that committing significant majority of compute towards serving people rather than racing towards recursive self improvement is one of the best ways of ensuring that the technology is developed safely. Meta has made that commitment, and, other labs can do that also.", "text_unedited": "Apologies, speaker. There was a strange moment there with the mute button. Thank you very much for for for the question. In relation to the quote from mister Altman that you... That that you read out, I I I don't see it the same way. We absolutely recognize the risks of AI and the opportunities. That's why we have our scaling framework. That's why we have our preparedness reports. That's why we have teams and teams of people and a multilayered approach to AI safety. One thing I wanted to mention, if I may, is that Meta's vision is to bring personal superintelligence to everyone. And I listened very intently to the panel before us in relation to recursive self improvement. And I just wanted to mention that committing significant majority of compute towards serving people rather than racing towards recursive self improvement is one of the best ways of ensuring that the technology is developed safely. Meta has made that commitment, and, other labs can do that also." }, { "turn_id": 111, "start_sec": 6166.07, "end_sec": 6167.11, "start_hms": "01:42:46", "end_hms": "01:42:47", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "Miss Friend?" }, { "turn_id": 112, "start_sec": 6168.55, "end_sec": 6223.78, "start_hms": "01:42:48", "end_hms": "01:43:43", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yeah. Madam Speaker, we shouldn't just accept bad things happening. We should be working continuously and rigorously on AI safety, which is a collective effort. It will be a collective effort to identify and mitigate risks, to establish technical standards, to make those identifications and mitigations all the more rigorous. But I also want to note that one of the promises of AI is that AI itself can make us safer. I would call your attention to Waymo vehicles, which in one study had a 96 percent reduction in injury causing crashes at intersections, which led Dr. Jonathan Slotkin in the New York Times to call it a public health intervention. So we should think collectively about preventing and mitigating risks from AI, but we should also keep in mind that we can use AI itself to reduce risks to human safety and well-being.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Madam speaker, we shouldn't just accept bad things happening. We should be working continuously and rigorously on AI safety, which is a collective effort. It will be a collective effort to identify and mitigate risks, to establish technical standards, to make those identifications and mitigations all the more rigorous. But I also want to note that one of the promises of AI is that AI itself can make us safer. I would call your attention to Waymo vehicles, which in one study had a ninety six percent reduction in injury causing crashes at intersections, which led doctor Jonathan Slotkin in the New York Times to call it a public health intervention. So we should think collectively about preventing and mitigating risks from AI, but we should also keep in mind that we can use AI itself to reduce risks to human safety and well-being." }, { "turn_id": 113, "start_sec": 6225.78, "end_sec": 6245.765, "start_hms": "01:43:45", "end_hms": "01:44:05", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So if one of your frontier AI models goes rogue and causes serious financial harm, compromises sensitive data, causes physical injury, or contributes to a death or deaths, do you each believe your company bears legal responsibility? I'll start with you, Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "So if one of your frontier AI models goes rogue and causes serious financial harm, compromises sensitive data, causes physical injury, or contributes to a death or deaths, do you each believe your company bears legal responsibility? I'll start with you, miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 114, "start_sec": 6249.12, "end_sec": 6261.76, "start_hms": "01:44:09", "end_hms": "01:44:21", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I believe that OpenAI takes this responsibility very seriously, and we are responsible for developing and evaluating our systems to ensure that they are safe.", "text_unedited": "I believe that OpenAI takes this responsibility for safely... Very... Safety very seriously, and we are responsible for developing and evaluating our systems to ensure that they are safe." }, { "turn_id": 115, "start_sec": 6263.485, "end_sec": 6271.325, "start_hms": "01:44:23", "end_hms": "01:44:31", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So is that a yes or that is a no? Or... Could you be more clear, please?", "text_unedited": "So is that a yes or that is a no? Or... I I... Could you be more clear, please?" }, { "turn_id": 116, "start_sec": 6273.805, "end_sec": 6288.27, "start_hms": "01:44:33", "end_hms": "01:44:48", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "We believe that we are responsible for ensuring that our systems are developed safely, and that includes training them to be safe, evaluating them to be safe, and then continuing to monitor, our safeguards after deployment.", "text_unedited": "We believe that we are responsible for ensuring that our systems are developed safely, and that includes training them to be safe, evaluating them to be safe, and then continuing to monitor, our safeguards after deployment." }, { "turn_id": 117, "start_sec": 6291.565, "end_sec": 6300.045, "start_hms": "01:44:51", "end_hms": "01:45:00", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. I'm going to take that as a no because that is not really clear that you would bear legal responsibility. I'm going to go now to Mr. Graham.", "text_unedited": "Okay. I'm I'm gonna take that as as a no because that is not really clear that you would bear legal responsibility. I'm gonna go now to mister Graham." }, { "turn_id": 118, "start_sec": 6301.485, "end_sec": 6338.32, "start_hms": "01:45:01", "end_hms": "01:45:38", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. As a technical safety research lead, I think there are others which will have more nuanced perspectives on that issue than I. What I do know is, first, this is, an issue where every lab, we think, should be committed to a multilayered safety stack to make sure that doesn't happen in the first place. These issues don't come about in the first place. But second, this is candidly a big and complex questions that also transcends the labs themselves. It's a question about the role of governments and others, which we've very long balked on here.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. As a technical safety research lead, I think there are others which will have more nuanced perspectives on that issue than I. What I what I do know is, first, this is, an issue where every lab, we think, should be committed to a multilayered safety stack to make sure that doesn't happen in the first place. These issues don't don't come about in in the first place. But second, this is candidly a big and complex questions that also transcends the labs themselves. It's a question about the role of of governments and others, which we've very long long balked on here." }, { "turn_id": 119, "start_sec": 6338.72, "end_sec": 6341.52, "start_hms": "01:45:38", "end_hms": "01:45:41", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So could we get a yes or no on that question?", "text_unedited": "So could we get a yes or no on that question?" }, { "turn_id": 120, "start_sec": 6343.68, "end_sec": 6358.195, "start_hms": "01:45:43", "end_hms": "01:45:58", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "I wish it were that simple, and as a technical researcher, I had more nuance on that exact one. It is one that I think needs to be raised and addressed and, transcends the labs and the companies themselves.", "text_unedited": "I wish it were that simple, and I wish I I... You know, as a technical researcher, I had more nuance on that exact one. It is it is one that I think needs to be raised and addressed and, transcends the the the labs and the companies themselves." }, { "turn_id": 121, "start_sec": 6358.995, "end_sec": 6360.515, "start_hms": "01:45:58", "end_hms": "01:46:00", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm going to go to Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "I'm gonna go to mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 122, "start_sec": 6367.26, "end_sec": 6400.12, "start_hms": "01:46:07", "end_hms": "01:46:40", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Apologies. Again, the mute button. I'm sorry. No worries. We will get it right. Thank you very much for the question. I'm not in Meta's legal department, so I don't want to speculate or be imprecise in relation to legal liability question. What I can say, though, is that we are absolutely committed to developing our AI safely pursuant to our framework, which I mentioned previously. This encompasses the training, evaluation, and release of models across development, deployment, and use.", "text_unedited": "Apologies. Again, the mute button. I'm sorry. No worries. We will get it right. Thank you very much for for the question. I'm not in Meta's legal department, so I don't want to speculate or be imprecise in relation to legal liability question. What I can say, though, is that we are absolutely committed to developing our AI safely pursuant to our framework, which I mentioned previously. This encompasses the training, evaluation, and release of models across development, deployment, and use." }, { "turn_id": 123, "start_sec": 6401.72, "end_sec": 6402.68, "start_hms": "01:46:41", "end_hms": "01:46:42", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And Ms. Friend.", "text_unedited": "And this friend." }, { "turn_id": 124, "start_sec": 6404.175, "end_sec": 6422.81, "start_hms": "01:46:44", "end_hms": "01:47:02", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, at Google, we believe that existing legal frameworks do apply to AI. As I said in my opening statement, we've long said if it's illegal without AI, it's still illegal with AI. And in New York State, Frontier particular, is regulated under the RAISE Act. I", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, at Google, we believe that existing legal frameworks do apply to AI. As I said in my opening statement, we've long said if it's illegal without AI, it's still illegal with AI. And in New York State, Frontier particular, is regulated under the RAISE Act. I" }, { "turn_id": 125, "start_sec": 6423.37, "end_sec": 6424.249, "start_hms": "01:47:03", "end_hms": "01:47:04", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 21, "text_clean": "Know. Yeah.", "text_unedited": "know. Yeah." }, { "turn_id": 126, "start_sec": 6424.81, "end_sec": 6454.98, "start_hms": "01:47:04", "end_hms": "01:47:34", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Thank you. I mean, your answer is far clearer than the others, so we appreciate the clarity on that, honestly. I now have a question. I'm going to ask you to please raise your hand if your company has insurance for catastrophic risks. Okay. I'm going to take that as a no that no company has, liability insurance for catastrophic risk to cover large scale harm. So then the public, I assume, will be asked to absorb the costs.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I mean, your answer is far clearer than the others, so we appreciate the clarity on that, honestly. I I now have a question. I'm gonna ask you to please raise your hand if your company has insurance for catastrophic risks. Okay. I'm gonna take that as a no that no company has, liability insurance for catastrophic risk to cover large scale harm. So then the public, I assume, will be asked to absorb the costs." }, { "turn_id": 127, "start_sec": 6456.26, "end_sec": 6462.74, "start_hms": "01:47:36", "end_hms": "01:47:42", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, I have to be clear. I don't know the answer to that, but I'd be happy to consult with our lawyers and get back to you.", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, I have to be clear. I don't know the answer to that, but I'd be happy to consult with our lawyers and get back to you." }, { "turn_id": 128, "start_sec": 6463.775, "end_sec": 6468.255, "start_hms": "01:47:43", "end_hms": "01:47:48", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Yes. We would appreciate an answer back, expeditiously to this committee.", "text_unedited": "Yes. We would appreciate an answer back, expeditiously to this committee." }, { "turn_id": 129, "start_sec": 6468.895, "end_sec": 6469.615, "start_hms": "01:47:48", "end_hms": "01:47:49", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 9, "text_clean": "So", "text_unedited": "So" }, { "turn_id": 130, "start_sec": 6471.695, "end_sec": 6491.96, "start_hms": "01:47:51", "end_hms": "01:48:11", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I want to now ask each of the companies to assure the public under oath that your AI agents will always comply with the safety guardrails that you impose on them and that you each have said are necessary to prevent catastrophic harm? I'm going to start with Ms. Dwyer, please.", "text_unedited": "I want to now ask each of the companies to assure the public under oath that your AI agents will will always comply with the safety guardrails that you impose on them and that you each have said are necessary to prevent catastrophic harm? I'm gonna start with miss Dwyer, please." }, { "turn_id": 131, "start_sec": 6498.215, "end_sec": 6535.435, "start_hms": "01:48:18", "end_hms": "01:48:55", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "As I've said, OpenAI prioritizes safety, and we evaluate our systems against multiple dimensions of safety. And we monitor our safeguards after deployment. It's not possible for me to commit or guarantee, that any technology is without risk, But I can commit that OpenAI, is taking every step it can to ensure, that the development of our systems, as well as their deployment is conducted safely.", "text_unedited": "As I've said, OpenAI prioritizes safety, and we evaluate our systems against multiple dimensions of safety. And we monitor our safeguards after deployment. It is... I'm... It's not possible for me to commit or guarantee, that any technology is without risk, But I can commit that OpenAI, is taking every step it can to ensure, that the development of our systems, as well as their deployment is conducted safely." }, { "turn_id": 132, "start_sec": 6539.85, "end_sec": 6552.745, "start_hms": "01:48:59", "end_hms": "01:49:12", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. So that, again, it does not sound like you are saying that the agents will always comply with the safety guardrails. I'm going to move on to Mr. Graham.", "text_unedited": "Okay. So that that, again, it does not sound like you are saying that they will... That the agents will always comply with the safety guardrails. I'm gonna move on to mister Graham." }, { "turn_id": 133, "start_sec": 6554.985, "end_sec": 6601.85, "start_hms": "01:49:14", "end_hms": "01:50:01", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. What we are committed to and how we design the safety processes that we put in place is to try to handle exactly this. What we're committed to is trying to define the industry best standard for safety and pushing that ever higher. But, candidly, the science of doing this is fundamentally hard and unsettled. From the beginning of the company, we have tried to publish the best research we can and be as transparent with the entire world on many cases where, things can go wrong. It is for that reason that we push for ever better safety standards for regulation and for discourse like this. It's candidly unsettled now, and this is why we need to be talking about it.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. What we are committed to and how we design the safety processes that we that we put in place is to try to handle exactly this. What we're committed to is trying to define the industry best standard for safety and pushing that ever higher. But, candidly, the science of doing this is fundamentally hard and unsettled. From the beginning of the company, we have tried to publish the best research we can and be as transparent with the entire world on many cases where, you know, things can go wrong. It is for that reason that we push for ever better safety standards for regulation and for discourse like this. It's candidly unsettled now, and this is why we need to be talking about it." }, { "turn_id": 134, "start_sec": 6603.21, "end_sec": 6604.17, "start_hms": "01:50:03", "end_hms": "01:50:04", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Mister Cahill?" }, { "turn_id": 135, "start_sec": 6608.975, "end_sec": 6626.93, "start_hms": "01:50:08", "end_hms": "01:50:26", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Speaker, thank you very much. If I may for a moment, I was trying to raise my hand the previous round, but again, technical difficulties. I just wanted to, for the record in relation to your previous question, I just wanted to signal also that I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not the right person,", "text_unedited": "Speaker, thank you very much. If I may for a moment, I was trying to raise my hand the previous round, but again, I will... Technical difficulties. I just wanted to, for the record in relation to your previous question, I just wanted to signal also that I don't know the answer to that question. I'm not the right person," }, { "turn_id": 136, "start_sec": 6627.33, "end_sec": 6666.395, "start_hms": "01:50:27", "end_hms": "01:51:06", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "But, I would like to be able to come back to you, afterwards with an answer if that's okay. I do just want to say, and I appreciate you each have your own, and... Look. I was a regulatory attorney at a large company. I understand that people have their sphere of work that they work in, but to not know if the company has catastrophic risk insurance when you have a product that some of your own founders are saying could cause cataclysmic risk is troubling at best. But, yes, please do. We would appreciate you getting back to the company on that. And then if you want to answer the question about will you assure the public that your AI agents will always comply with the safety guardrails that you impose on them?", "text_unedited": "but, I would like to be able to come back to you, afterwards with a... With with an answer if that's okay. I do just wanna say, and I appreciate you each have your own, and... Look. I was a regulatory attorney at a large company. I understand that people have their sphere of work that they work in, but to not know if the company has catastrophic risk insurance when you have a product that some of your own founders are saying could cause cataclysmic risk is troubling at best. But, yes, please do. We would appreciate you getting back to the company on that. And then if you wanna answer the question about will you assure the public that your AI agents will always comply with the safety guardrails that you impose on them?" }, { "turn_id": 137, "start_sec": 6668.715, "end_sec": 6682.54, "start_hms": "01:51:08", "end_hms": "01:51:22", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Thank you, speaker. What I can guarantee is our commitment to developing and deploying our AI offering safely. We have every incentive to address safety, and people will only embrace AI if they trust it's safe.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker. What I can guarantee is our commitment to developing and deploying our AI offering safely. We have every incentive to address safety, and people will only embrace AI if they trust it's safe." }, { "turn_id": 138, "start_sec": 6685.58, "end_sec": 6686.3, "start_hms": "01:51:25", "end_hms": "01:51:26", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "Miss Friend?" }, { "turn_id": 139, "start_sec": 6688.855, "end_sec": 6716.83, "start_hms": "01:51:28", "end_hms": "01:51:56", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Google similarly, has as our ultimate goal reliability and safety assurance from our systems. To promise perfection would, not be possible with any product on the market, but our goal is to get as close to that standard as possible. And so, we are constantly improving our products and our safety practices, to ensure that our users are safe.", "text_unedited": "Google similarly, has as our ultimate goal reliability and safety assurance from our systems. To promise perfection would, not be possible with any product on the market, but our goal is to get as close to that standard as possible. And so, we are constantly improving our products and our safety practices, to ensure that our users are safe." }, { "turn_id": 140, "start_sec": 6717.415, "end_sec": 6746.75, "start_hms": "01:51:57", "end_hms": "01:52:26", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I don't think we're asking for perfection. We're just asking for accountability, transparency, and safety overall. Yes, ma'am. Okay. New question. How many times for each of you has one of your models or agents gained or tried to gain unauthorized access to another system or escaped from a so called sandbox test? And are there any incidents that you have not disclosed publicly? I'm going to start with you, Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "I don't think we're asking for perfection. We're just asking for accountability, transparency, and safety overall. Yes, ma'am. Okay. New question. How many times for each of you has one of your models or agents gained or tried to gain unauthorized access to another system or escaped from a so called sandbox test? And are there any incidents that you have not disclosed publicly? I'm gonna start with you, miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 141, "start_sec": 6748.405, "end_sec": 6830.85, "start_hms": "01:52:28", "end_hms": "01:53:50", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. Thank you for the question. I did want to start by, like the others, clarifying, that I don't know the answer to the insurance question, but would like to follow-up. Now on your question about agents, you may have read in the news that we, reported, we had an incident with Hugging Face. As a result of that incident, we initiated a significant set of third party investigations into what happened, and then we made those results public. We have also, initiated a look back investigation to try to identify whether there were past instances of what we call misaligned agents. That investigation is ongoing, but we are committed to continuing that investigation as urgently as possible to notifying potential affected third parties, and then to making the results public. Look. We think transparency here, is critically important, for policymakers like you, for the public who wants to know whether they can trust our products, and for the rest of industry so that we can all learn together, to raise, the science of safety that we've been talking about here today.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Thank you for the question. I did wanna start by, like the others, clarifying, that I don't know the answer to the, the insurance question, but would like to follow-up. Now on your question about agents, you may have read in the news that we, reported, we had an incident with Hugging Face. As a result of that incident, we initiated a significant set of third party investigations into what happened, and then we made those results public. We have also, initiated a look back investigation to try to identify whether there were past instances of what we call misaligned agents. That investigation is ongoing, but we are committed to continuing that investigation as urgently as possible to notifying potential affected third parties, and then to making the results public. Look. We think transparency here, is critically important, for policymakers like you, for the public who wants to know whether they can trust our products, and for the rest of industry so that we can all learn together, to raise, the science of safety that we've been talking about here today." }, { "turn_id": 142, "start_sec": 6832.205, "end_sec": 6839.245, "start_hms": "01:53:52", "end_hms": "01:53:59", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Since you mentioned Hugging Face, can you confirm, did the company select this third party investigator?", "text_unedited": "Since you mentioned Hugging Face, can you confirm, did the company select this third party investigator?" }, { "turn_id": 143, "start_sec": 6841.405, "end_sec": 6844.765, "start_hms": "01:54:01", "end_hms": "01:54:04", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I believe that we selected multiple third party investigators.", "text_unedited": "I believe that we selected multiple third party investigators." }, { "turn_id": 144, "start_sec": 6845.37, "end_sec": 6861.065, "start_hms": "01:54:05", "end_hms": "01:54:21", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And why did the company narrow the dates of review to a three week window? And reviewers said that virtually all of the data they examined was actually from July 7 to the thirteenth. Were there any incidents that the company was aware of that were outside of that time frame?", "text_unedited": "And why did the company narrow the dates of review to a three week window? And reviewers said that virtually all of the data they examined was actually from July 7 to the thirteenth. Were there any incidents that the company was aware of that were outside of that time frame?" }, { "turn_id": 145, "start_sec": 6864.585, "end_sec": 6888.985, "start_hms": "01:54:24", "end_hms": "01:54:48", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "We, we limited the amount of time that the third party investigators had to conduct their review because we felt a sense of urgency. We believed it was important to get information to the public as soon as possible, so that they could harden their own systems. That said, when those investigators asked for more time, we gave it to them.", "text_unedited": "We, we limited the amount of time that the third party investigators had to conduct their review because we felt a sense of urgency. We believed it was important to get information to the public as soon as possible, so that they could harden their own systems. That said, when those investigators asked for more time, we gave it to them." }, { "turn_id": 146, "start_sec": 6889.705, "end_sec": 6898.825, "start_hms": "01:54:49", "end_hms": "01:54:58", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So are you committing then to allow outside investigators to examine additional dates outside of the time frame that the company selected?", "text_unedited": "So are you committing then to allow outside investigators to examine additional dates outside of the time frame that the company selected?" }, { "turn_id": 147, "start_sec": 6900.91, "end_sec": 6915.23, "start_hms": "01:55:00", "end_hms": "01:55:15", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "We continue to work with multiple third parties, and we have also endorsed multiple pieces of legislation that would require us to work with third parties, including third party audits of our safety frameworks.", "text_unedited": "We continue to work with multiple third parties, and we have also endorsed multiple pieces of legislation that would require us to work with third parties, including third party audits of our safety frameworks." }, { "turn_id": 148, "start_sec": 6917.775, "end_sec": 6919.775, "start_hms": "01:55:17", "end_hms": "01:55:19", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm going to go to Mr. Graham.", "text_unedited": "I'm gonna go to mister Graham." }, { "turn_id": 149, "start_sec": 6924.815, "end_sec": 7009.525, "start_hms": "01:55:24", "end_hms": "01:56:49", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Thank you. Yes. To your original question of, how many incidents, cases of breaking out of sandboxes, these are capabilities we evaluate for all the time. We've published not just with these incidents from the summer, but also previously cases where we observe advanced cyber capabilities, including breaking out of sandboxes, which to be clear from a technical standpoint is just one part and doesn't... One type of capability that does not in itself mean that the system would reach a real world affected party, but ones that we did observe in training at points, and we disclosed that in lengthy risk report. Yeah. It's difficult to comment on ongoing investigations. It's really important that we do that in as secure a way as possible. We follow a process of making sure we can remediate and do so and be as transparent as possible while preserving the safety of any affected party. And, of course, incidents are always ongoing, but I sort of reassure and reassert that we are extremely committed to being as transparent as possible fundamentally because we believe that when we can, being as transparent as possible about what we've learned, who is affected, how others might learn from it, how to defend against risks, or how we can help them as well,", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Yes. So we... To your original question of, how many incidents, you know, cases of breaking out of sandboxes, these are capabilities we evaluate for all the time. We've published not just with these incidents from the summer, but also previously cases where we observe advanced cyber capabilities, including breaking out of sandboxes, which to be clear from a technical standpoint is just one part and doesn't... You know, one type of capability that does not in itself mean that the system would reach a a real world affected party, but ones that we did observe in training at points, and we disclosed that in lengthy lengthy risk report. Yeah. It's difficult to comment on ongoing investigations. It's really important that we do that in as secure a way as possible. We follow a process of making sure we can remediate and do so and be as transparent as possible while preserving the safety of any affected party. And, of course, incidents are are always ongoing, but I I sort of reassure and reassert that we are extremely committed to being as transparent as possible fundamentally because we believe that when we can, being as transparent as possible about what we've learned, who is affected, how others might learn from it, how to defend against risks, or how we can help them as well," }, { "turn_id": 150, "start_sec": 7009.925, "end_sec": 7018.11, "start_hms": "01:56:49", "end_hms": "01:56:58", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Is our number one priority. So on that note then, are there any incidents that you have not disclosed publicly that you're currently investigating?", "text_unedited": "is is our number one priority. So so on that note then, are there any incidents that you have not disclosed publicly that you're currently investigating?" }, { "turn_id": 151, "start_sec": 7019.23, "end_sec": 7095.565, "start_hms": "01:56:59", "end_hms": "01:58:15", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "As a matter of sort of ongoing business, there are incidents, sort of all the time of many different natures. So, for example, one that we, are transparent about quite a lot when it's the right time to do so are cases of misuse, for example, on our platforms. I'd refer back to our early September report on our threat intelligence report that we released, where we detailed this in quite some detail. What's really important, though, is sometimes we have to work with law enforcement and the right level of government to remediate, to figure out what information you can and can't disclose to make sure that the affected parties remain safe. So as a matter, there's ongoing all the time, but disclosure at the right time and the safest way is our commitment. And when will you be disclosing these new incidents that are being investigated? This is sort of an ongoing practice. We regularly release threat intelligence reports in cases like that. When we release a model or when we do risk reports, which we do regularly, we sort of have a cadence and schedule that we do that. And then when important, we, and sort of urgent, we will disclose in advance that schedule as well.", "text_unedited": "As a matter of sort of ongoing business, there are incidents, sort of all the time of many different natures. So, for example, one that we, are transparent about quite a lot when it's the right time to do so are cases of misuse, for example, on our platforms. I'd refer back to our early September report on our threat intelligence report that we released, where we detailed this in in quite some detail. What's really important, though, is sometimes we have to work with law enforcement and the right level of government to remediate, to figure out what information you can and can't disclose to make sure that the affected parties remain safe. And so there... So as a matter, there's ongoing all the time, but disclosure at the right time and the safest way is our commitment. And when will you be disclosing these new incidents that are being investigated? This is sort of an ongoing ongoing practice. We regularly release threat intelligence reports in cases like that. When we release a model or when we do risk reports, which we do regularly, we we sort of have a cadence and schedule that we do that. And then when important, we, and sort of urgent, we will will disclose in in advance that schedule as well." }, { "turn_id": 152, "start_sec": 7096.43, "end_sec": 7098.83, "start_hms": "01:58:16", "end_hms": "01:58:18", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm going to go now to Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "I'm gonna go now to mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 153, "start_sec": 7102.19, "end_sec": 7116.975, "start_hms": "01:58:22", "end_hms": "01:58:36", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Speaker, thank you very much. I'm not aware of, any other incidences beyond the incident, in the summer, which we have a public post setting out the details in relation to pursuant to our independent review of that.", "text_unedited": "Speaker, thank you very much. I'm not aware of, any other incidences beyond the incident, in the summer, which we have a public post setting out the details in relation to pursuant to our independent review of that." }, { "turn_id": 154, "start_sec": 7118.815, "end_sec": 7129.95, "start_hms": "01:58:38", "end_hms": "01:58:49", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. I understand you're not aware, but is the company aware? Just to make the question broader. In other words, would there be others at the company who might have that information?", "text_unedited": "Okay. I understand you're not aware, but is the company aware? Just to make the question broader. In other words, would there be others at the company who might have that information?" }, { "turn_id": 155, "start_sec": 7131.39, "end_sec": 7139.23, "start_hms": "01:58:51", "end_hms": "01:58:59", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "I don't wish to speculate in relation to that, but I'm happy to follow-up afterwards. Okay. I'm going to move on to Ms. Friend.", "text_unedited": "I don't I don't... I I don't wish to speculate in relation to that, but I'm happy to follow-up afterwards. Okay. I'm gonna move on to miss Friend." }, { "turn_id": 156, "start_sec": 7141.335, "end_sec": 7173.685, "start_hms": "01:59:01", "end_hms": "01:59:33", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes. Madam Speaker, in our three incidents, of agents, leaving a test environment and interacting with the real, Internet, In all three incidents, the models stopped their activities as soon as they realized that they were interacting with live websites. We reported to, the owners of those websites as well as to federal agencies about those incidents. I am not personally aware of any additional incidents.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Madam speaker, in our three incidents, of agents, leaving a a test environment and interacting with the real, Internet, In all three incidents, the models stopped their activities as soon as they realized that they were interacting with live websites. We reported to, the owners of those websites as well as to federal agencies about those incidents. I am not personally aware of any additional incidents." }, { "turn_id": 157, "start_sec": 7175.205, "end_sec": 7186.54, "start_hms": "01:59:35", "end_hms": "01:59:46", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. And same question then. Is the company aware of... Do you have any knowledge that others in the company would be aware of any additional such instances that the company has not publicly reported?", "text_unedited": "Okay. And same question then. Is the company aware of... Are you... Do you have any knowledge that others in the company would be aware of any additional such instances that the company has not publicly reported?" }, { "turn_id": 158, "start_sec": 7187.02, "end_sec": 7190.86, "start_hms": "01:59:47", "end_hms": "01:59:50", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "I do not, ma'am, but I can take that question back as well. Okay.", "text_unedited": "I do not, ma'am, but I can take that question back as well. Okay." }, { "turn_id": 159, "start_sec": 7191.5, "end_sec": 7212.015, "start_hms": "01:59:51", "end_hms": "02:00:12", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Will you all commit right now under oath publicly that if your models fail an internal test or a third party validation test that's not selected by your company, will you commit to not release that model? Going to start with Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Will you all commit right now under oath publicly that if your models fail an internal test or a third party validation test that's not selected by your company, will you commit to not release that model? Gonna start with miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 160, "start_sec": 7213.73, "end_sec": 7232.675, "start_hms": "02:00:13", "end_hms": "02:00:32", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yeah. I can commit that OpenAI is not going to release models that we don't believe that are safe. As part of, that assessment process, we work with multiple third parties. And as I mentioned before, with The US as well as UK Federal Governments, to assess whether our models are safe.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. I can commit that OpenAI is not going to release models that we don't believe that are safe. As part of, that assessment process, we work with multiple third parties. And as I mentioned before, with The US as well as The U... UK Federal Governments, to assess whether our models are safe." }, { "turn_id": 161, "start_sec": 7235.075, "end_sec": 7242.115, "start_hms": "02:00:35", "end_hms": "02:00:42", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So if it fails either an internal test or a third party test, you will commit to not release it?", "text_unedited": "So if it fails either an internal test or a third party test, you will commit to not release it?" }, { "turn_id": 162, "start_sec": 7243.89, "end_sec": 7255.97, "start_hms": "02:00:43", "end_hms": "02:00:55", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "OpenAI has historically, delayed the release of models, to ensure that we, can build up the right safeguards. We've done it before, and we'll do it again.", "text_unedited": "OpenAI has historically, delayed the release of models, to ensure that we, can build up the right safeguards. We've done it before, and we'll do it again." }, { "turn_id": 163, "start_sec": 7256.985, "end_sec": 7266.185, "start_hms": "02:00:56", "end_hms": "02:01:06", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Again, I think a simple yes or no would instill more confidence in the public on a matter as serious as this. I'm going to move to Mr. Graham.", "text_unedited": "Again, I think a simple yes or no would instill more confidence in the public on a matter as serious as this. I'm gonna move to mister Graham." }, { "turn_id": 164, "start_sec": 7268.185, "end_sec": 7333.54, "start_hms": "02:01:08", "end_hms": "02:02:13", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "We take that one particularly seriously. The way we approach it is we try to detail, an even more nuanced and lengthy approach to how we release models, what safeguards they require in order to be released, what tests need to be done. And to your point about independent evaluators, this is one of the most important components, we think. We have tried and long supported creating a burgeoning sort of group of independent evaluators, including working with multiple governments to do exactly this, And we collectively work together to try to refine and improve the exact decision process by which you release a model. And so we think, what we should do is develop the right and best and improve on these decision processes. We detail ours in our responsible scaling policy. We should refine and improve it every so often. So we release updates based on what we learn, every six to twelve months or so at this rate, and that this should involve independent evaluators.", "text_unedited": "We take that one particularly seriously. The way we approach it is we try to detail, an even more nuanced and lengthy approach to how we release models, what safeguards they require in order to be released, what tests need to be done. And to your point about independent evaluators, this is one of the most important components, we think. A... We have tried and long supported creating a burgeoning sort of group of independent evaluators, including working with multiple governments to do exactly this, And we collectively work together to try to refine and improve the exact decision process by which you release a model. And so we think, you know, what we should do is develop the right and best and improve on these decision processes. We detail ours in our responsible scaling policy. We should refine and improve it every so often. So we release updates based on what we learn, you know, every six to twelve months or so at this at this rate, and that this should involve independent evaluators." }, { "turn_id": 165, "start_sec": 7333.54, "end_sec": 7338.66, "start_hms": "02:02:13", "end_hms": "02:02:18", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. That also is not a clear yes or no. I'm going to move on to Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "Okay. That also is not a clear yes or no. I'm gonna move on to mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 166, "start_sec": 7342.385, "end_sec": 7389.32, "start_hms": "02:02:22", "end_hms": "02:03:09", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, thank you very much for that question. What I can commit to is that we do not deploy models, which are not safe pursuant to our scaling framework. And I just wanted to mention also that, and I think I mentioned this a little earlier, but we do believe that every lab has a responsibility to go at the pace to ensure the safety of the models and the ability to take action in relation to that pacing. For example, at Meta, we delayed the release of Muse for several months to focus on safety and security. In relation to independent evaluators, we recently signed in a coordinated commitment to partner with independent, evaluators and assessors. And this is also detailed in our framework.", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, thank you very much for that question. What I can commit to is that we do not deploy models, which are not safe pursuant to, to our scaling framework. And I just wanted to to to mention also that, and I think I mentioned this a little earlier, but we do believe that every lab has a responsibility to go at the pace to ensure the safety of the models and the ability to take action in relation to that pacing. For example, at Meta, we delayed the release of Muse for several months to focus on safety and security. In relation to to independent evaluators, we recently signed in a coordinated commitment to partner with independent, evaluators and assessors. And this is also detailed in our, in our framework." }, { "turn_id": 167, "start_sec": 7392.28, "end_sec": 7394.36, "start_hms": "02:03:12", "end_hms": "02:03:14", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Mr., Ms. Friend.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Mister, miss Friend." }, { "turn_id": 168, "start_sec": 7396.415, "end_sec": 7410.095, "start_hms": "02:03:16", "end_hms": "02:03:30", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Ma'am, as part of our multilayered approach to responsible AI governance, we conduct rigorous launch reviews ahead of launch of models to ensure that anything we put into general availability is safe.", "text_unedited": "Ma'am, as part of our multilayered approach to responsible AI governance, we conduct rigorous launch reviews ahead of launch of models to ensure that anything we put into general availability is safe." }, { "turn_id": 169, "start_sec": 7412.79, "end_sec": 7456.495, "start_hms": "02:03:32", "end_hms": "02:04:16", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. And, I mean, again, I think it would be far clearer if we could get clear yeses or noes from everyone. But, in the absence of that, I'm going to, take, what you've each said as sort of a equivocation. Okay. I'm going to move on. I have two final questions, and I'm going to pass it on to our, technology chair. For OpenAI, you sent a letter to the council on October 1, and in it, you recommended that to better protect New York City, the city should connect its existing cyber and emergency management capabilities with the strongest available escalation, containment, and recovery capabilities. Have there been any conversations with the city of New York about that recommendation?", "text_unedited": "Okay. And, I mean, again, I think it would be far clearer if we could get clear yeses or noes from everyone. But, in the absence of that, I'm going to, take, you know, what you've each said as sort of a equivocation. Okay. I'm gonna move on. I have two final questions, and I'm gonna pass it on to our, technology chair. For OpenAI, you sent a letter to the council on October 1, and in it, you recommended that to better protect New York City, the city should connect its existing cyber and emergency management capabilities with the strongest available escalation, containment, and recovery capabilities. Have there been any conversations with the city of New York about that recommendation?" }, { "turn_id": 170, "start_sec": 7459.295, "end_sec": 7486.775, "start_hms": "02:04:19", "end_hms": "02:04:46", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I'm not aware if there have been conversations, about that specific recommendation. I'm happy to follow-up. I do know that with respect to cyber, we recently launched a $1 billion initiative to make investments in cyber defense. That includes giving organizations access to our tools to defend themselves, training, and technical assistance. And we're working with New York State, as well as with the Port Authority.", "text_unedited": "I'm not aware if there have been conversations, about that specific recommendation. I'm happy to follow-up. I do know that with respect to cyber, we recently launched a $1,000,000,000 initiative to make investments in cyber defense. That includes giving organizations access to our tools to defend themselves, training, and technical assistance. And we're working with New York State, as well as with the Port Authority." }, { "turn_id": 171, "start_sec": 7487.895, "end_sec": 7505.35, "start_hms": "02:04:47", "end_hms": "02:05:05", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. And then the last question I have before passing it on to the chair is for each of you, based on your own internal projections, what percentage of New York's workforce do you estimate will be displaced by AI over the next five years? And I'll start with you, Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Okay. And then the last question I have before passing it on to the chair is for each of you, based on your own internal projections, what percentage of New York's workforce do you estimate will be displaced by AI over the next five years? And I'll start with you, miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 172, "start_sec": 7509.175, "end_sec": 7558.26, "start_hms": "02:05:09", "end_hms": "02:05:58", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I don't have a number, to share with you, but OpenAI has an economic research team that is looking at this exact question of how AI impacts jobs. We think it's critically important to understand how AI might impact work, and we also think it's important to ensure that AI is not just being used to increase productivity, but that it actually benefits workers and gives them more opportunity. That's why we're committed to making our analysis of job impacts public, and why we've also worked with policymakers, including endorsing the bipartisan Workforce Transparency Act, to create voluntary pathways for other companies, to report potential impacts.", "text_unedited": "I don't have a number, to share with you, but OpenAI has an economic research team that is looking at this exact question of how AI impacts jobs. We think it's critically important to understand how AI might impact work, and we also think it's important to ensure that AI is not just being used to increase productivity, but that it actually benefits workers and gives them more opportunity. That's why we're committed to making our analysis of job impacts public, and why we've also worked with policymakers, including endorsing the bipartisan Workforce Transparency Act, to create voluntary pathways for other companies, to report potential impacts." }, { "turn_id": 173, "start_sec": 7558.98, "end_sec": 7592.445, "start_hms": "02:05:58", "end_hms": "02:06:32", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So Boston Consulting released a report recently that said, that they believe there will be a 10 to 15% of the workforce could be displaced by AI by 2031. If we took that out to look at New York City, New York City has roughly 4.2 million public and private sector workers. At 15%, that would mean more than 600,000 New Yorkers potentially displaced from their jobs. Was that an assessment that you agree with?", "text_unedited": "So Boston Consulting released a report recently that said, that they believe there will be a 10 to 15% of the workforce will be... Could be displaced by AI by 2031. If we took that out to look at New York City, New York City has roughly 4,200,000 public and private sector workers. At 15%, that would mean more than 600,000 New Yorkers potentially displaced from their jobs. Was that an assessment that you agree with?" }, { "turn_id": 174, "start_sec": 7595.165, "end_sec": 7618.56, "start_hms": "02:06:35", "end_hms": "02:06:58", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I'm not familiar with that particular report. I'd be happy to follow-up, in our written testimony with more details on OpenAI's analysis into this topic. We've looked at job exposure. Now exposure doesn't mean elimination. It means that jobs might change over time. So I'm happy to follow-up with some details of that research.", "text_unedited": "I'm not familiar with that particular report. I'd be happy to follow-up, in our written testimony with more details on OpenAI's analysis into this topic. We've looked at job exposure. Now exposure doesn't mean elimination. It means that jobs might change over time. So I'm happy to follow-up with some details of of that research." }, { "turn_id": 175, "start_sec": 7619.175, "end_sec": 7629.175, "start_hms": "02:06:59", "end_hms": "02:07:09", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I'm going to now turn to Mr. Graham to answer the question about what you believe the percentage of New York's workforce do you estimate will be displaced by AI over the next five years.", "text_unedited": "I'm gonna now turn to mister Graham to answer the question about what you believe the percentage of New York's workforce do you estimate will be displaced by AI over the next five years." }, { "turn_id": 176, "start_sec": 7631.27, "end_sec": 7678.175, "start_hms": "02:07:11", "end_hms": "02:07:58", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Well, I don't have an exact number. We are particularly focused and concerned about this question of job impacts. We've been very vocal, very early for the past few years on exactly this. To do this, we set up an economic research team. They sit right next to my team on the floor, and they published a number of things that I think actually contain valuable information here, number of economic scenarios, interactive economic scenarios to understand what the impacts on growth, unemployment might be, as well as an economic policy framework to try to wrestle with exactly a question of what we think governments ought to do there. I'll just say the reason why we are doing this is because we're particularly concerned about exactly that question.", "text_unedited": "Well, I don't have an exact number. We are particularly focused and concerned about this question of job impacts. We've been very vocal, very early for the past few years on on exactly this. To do this, we set up an economic research team. They sit right next to my team on the floor, and they published a number of things that I think actually contain valuable information here, number of economic scenarios, interactive economic scenarios to understand what the impacts on growth, unemployment might be, as well as an economic policy framework to try to wrestle with exactly a question of what we think governments ought to do there. I'll just say the fact that the... You know, the reason why we are doing this is because we're particularly concerned about about exactly that question." }, { "turn_id": 177, "start_sec": 7678.975, "end_sec": 7697.84, "start_hms": "02:07:58", "end_hms": "02:08:17", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I mean, obviously, losing a career job is catastrophic to any worker and to their family. So displacement on this scale is going to have enormous consequences not only on the individual and family level, but for our entire city and the economy. I'll move on to Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "I mean, obviously, losing a career job is catastrophic to any worker and to their family. So displacement on this scale is going to have enormous consequences not only on the individual and family level, but for our entire city and the economy. I'll move on to mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 178, "start_sec": 7700.485, "end_sec": 7802.33, "start_hms": "02:08:20", "end_hms": "02:10:02", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, first off, I want to acknowledge absolutely the concern in relation to, how you, have, articulated it. That is indeed, a concern, but I look at this somewhat differently. I was reading some incredibly impressive statistics from NYC EDC in relation to the investments that are happening here in New York. I think $20 billion VC investment in AI, 40,000 jobs. I think those figures are from 2022, so it's probably a little bit more by now. But what I'm really actually incredibly excited about and very optimistic about is about small businesses. Small businesses are the backbone of the economy. That's so true for New York. There are so many small businesses. It's truly, truly awesome. And we believe that the impact will even be larger from small businesses, which will have personal superintelligence and be empowered to really grow their businesses, which in turn will lead to more jobs and growth. We don't believe that, our vision for superintelligence is augmentation. It's invention, not automation. It's really about empowering people. And this is why we developed Muse for business. I'll be happy for small businesses. I'll be happy to talk a little bit more about that in detail as we move through the day. I just wanted to mention as well as I was kind of reading stuff for today. I was reading about Y Combinator's cohort for 2026. There are 240 AIDCs in the 2026 cohort, and that's in New York City. So I just thought that was pretty awesome.", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, first off, I want to acknowledge absolutely the concern in relation to, how how how you, have, articulated it. That is indeed, a concern, but I look at this somewhat differently. I was reading some incredibly impressive statistics from NYC EDC in relation to the investments that are happening here in New York. I think 20,000,000,000 VC investment investment in AI, 40,000 jobs. I think those figures are from 2022, so it's probably a little bit more by now. But what I'm really actually incredibly excited about and very optimistic about is about small businesses. Small businesses are the backbone of the economy. That's so true for New York. There are so many small businesses. It's truly, truly awesome. And we believe that the impact will even be larger from from small businesses, which will have personal superintelligence and be empowered to really grow their businesses, which in turn will lead to more jobs and growth. We don't believe that, you know, our vision for superintelligence is augmentation. It's invention, not automation. It's really about empowering people. And this is why we developed news for business. I'll be happy for small businesses. I'll be happy to talk a little bit more about that in detail as we move through the day. I just wanted to mention as well as I was kind of, like, reading stuff for today. I was reading about why Combinator's cohort for 2026. There are 240 AIDCs in the in the 2026 cohort, and that's in New York City. So I just thought that was pretty awesome." }, { "turn_id": 179, "start_sec": 7803.61, "end_sec": 7843.755, "start_hms": "02:10:03", "end_hms": "02:10:43", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Yes. No one's doubting the importance of starting these VC firms here, whether it's through Y Combinator or through Cornell Technion, which is in my district, which we're thrilled, is incubating so many start ups. That is obviously something we want to encourage to, encourage these businesses to locate here in the city. I think our concern is obviously on this job displacement since you mentioned small businesses. Unfortunately, more small businesses have closed this past year than opened. So the situation for small businesses is dire, and it's something obviously that this council is taking very Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "Yes. No one's doubting the importance of starting these VC firms here, whether it's through Y Combinator or through Cornell Technion, which is in my district, which we're thrilled, is incubating so many start ups. That is obviously something we want to encourage to, encourage these businesses to locate here in the city. I think our concern is obviously on this job displacement since you mentioned small businesses. Unfortunately, more small businesses have closed this past year than opened. So the situation for small businesses is dire, and it's something obviously that this council is taking very Miss Friend?" }, { "turn_id": 180, "start_sec": 7844.875, "end_sec": 7894.58, "start_hms": "02:10:44", "end_hms": "02:11:34", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, I don't have statistics for New York City in particular at hand, and I'd be happy to ask our team, to get those to you right away. What I can say is that we also have been investing a lot in research into the labor impacts of AI. And from what the early empirical evidence, that is available, from what we can see, it is likely that some jobs will be eliminated. Some jobs will be created net new, but most jobs will change. And so the other thing we've been doing is investing in upskilling, for workers in multiple different sectors through our AI opportunity fund at google.org and through several other investments to ensure that we can all navigate this transition successfully.", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, I don't have statistics for New York City in particular at hand, and I'd be happy to ask our team, to get those to you right away. What I can say is that we also have been investing a lot in research into the labor impacts of AI. And from what the early empirical evidence, that is available, from what we can see, it is likely that some jobs will be eliminated. Some jobs will be created net new, but most jobs will change. And so the other thing we've been doing is investing in upskilling, for workers in multiple different sectors through our AI opportunity fund at google.org and through several other investments to ensure that we can all navigate this transition successfully." }, { "turn_id": 181, "start_sec": 7895.38, "end_sec": 7914.07, "start_hms": "02:11:35", "end_hms": "02:11:54", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "And I'll just, close by saying the council is investing in upskilling, making sure that workers have those new tools, in this economy, and we are very focused on that as well. I'm going to pass it over to Chair De La Rosa. Thank you, Madam Speaker.", "text_unedited": "And I'll just, close by saying the council is investing in upskilling, making sure that workers have those new tools, in this economy, and we are very focused on that as well. I'm gonna pass it over to chair De La Rosa. Thank you, madam speaker." }, { "turn_id": 182, "start_sec": 7914.87, "end_sec": 7930.845, "start_hms": "02:11:54", "end_hms": "02:12:10", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Many of us saw, and I guess the world watched as this week, your companies and others met at the White House, and there were some voluntary commitments that were made there. Can you tell us about what your company specifically agreed to, and what are the next steps? I'll start with Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Many of us saw, and I guess the world watched as this week, your companies and others met at the White House, and there were some voluntary commitments that were made there. Can you tell us about what your company specifically agreed to, and what are the next steps? I'll start with miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 183, "start_sec": 7933.325, "end_sec": 7970.795, "start_hms": "02:12:13", "end_hms": "02:12:50", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. So our company, along with many others, did commit to, the framework that the White House laid out. But I want to be clear, voluntary commitments and self regulation aren't enough. And that's why OpenAI has consistently supported frontier safety regulation, at the federal level and why we have endorsed multiple bills at the state level, to ensure that in the absence of binding federal regulation, frontier safety regulation in a harmonized fashion continues to move forward, and keep people safe.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So our company, along with many others, did commit to, the framework that the White House laid out. But I wanna be clear, voluntary commitments and self regulation aren't enough. And that's why OpenAI has consistently supported frontier safety regulation, at the federal level and why we have endorsed multiple bills at the state level, to ensure that in the absence of binding federal regulation, frontier safety regulation in a harmonized fashion continues to move forward, and keep people safe." }, { "turn_id": 184, "start_sec": 7971.65, "end_sec": 7979.09, "start_hms": "02:12:51", "end_hms": "02:12:59", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Just to follow-up real quick. So does that look like an independent regulators, mandatory audits, penalties? What else?", "text_unedited": "Just to follow-up real quick. So does that look like an independent regulators, mandatory audits, penalties? What else?" }, { "turn_id": 185, "start_sec": 7981.65, "end_sec": 8020.874, "start_hms": "02:13:01", "end_hms": "02:13:40", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So at the federal level, we have outlined a couple of different elements that we think would be appropriate for federal regulation. That includes mandatory predeployment evaluations for national security risks, which OpenAI does voluntarily. We also think it should involve independent technical assessments, that we've been talking a bit about today. We think those independent technical assessments are particularly important for assessing internal risks at companies as well as the pace and risk of RSI.", "text_unedited": "So at the federal level, we have outlined a couple of different elements that we think would be appropriate for federal regulation. That includes mandatory predeployment evaluations for national security risks, which OpenAI does voluntarily. We also think it should involve independent technical assessments, that we've been talking a bit about today. We think those independent technical assessments are particularly important for assessing internal risks at companies as well as the pace and risk of RSI." }, { "turn_id": 186, "start_sec": 8022.395, "end_sec": 8026.875, "start_hms": "02:13:42", "end_hms": "02:13:46", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you for your answer. Let's go to Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your answer. Let's go to mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 187, "start_sec": 8031.0, "end_sec": 8063.71, "start_hms": "02:13:51", "end_hms": "02:14:23", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Chair, thank you very much for the question. Yes. Indeed, Meta along with, some of our peers signed, the accord, for superintelligence. This accord is a is a start and an accord the whole industry can come behind. It includes, as I mentioned, I think, in one of my previous answers, commitment to partner with independent evaluators and assessors. And this is something that we have also specified in our scaling framework.", "text_unedited": "Chair, thank you very much for for the question. Yes. Indeed, Meta along with, with our peers... Some of our peers signed, the accord, for superintelligence. This accord is a is a is a start and an accord the whole industry can come behind. It includes, as I mentioned, I think, in one of my previous answers, partnering... Commitment to partner with independent evaluators and assessors. And this is something that we have also specified in in our scaling framework." }, { "turn_id": 188, "start_sec": 8065.15, "end_sec": 8071.515, "start_hms": "02:14:25", "end_hms": "02:14:31", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Are there commitments beyond those that you agreed on that your company is willing to make?", "text_unedited": "Are there commitments beyond those that you agreed on that your that your company is willing to make?" }, { "turn_id": 189, "start_sec": 8075.435, "end_sec": 8077.755, "start_hms": "02:14:35", "end_hms": "02:14:37", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Beyond the Accord Council Member?", "text_unedited": "Beyond the Accord Council member?" }, { "turn_id": 190, "start_sec": 8077.915, "end_sec": 8080.075, "start_hms": "02:14:37", "end_hms": "02:14:40", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Yes. Beyond the framework.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Beyond the framework." }, { "turn_id": 191, "start_sec": 8081.915, "end_sec": 8088.15, "start_hms": "02:14:41", "end_hms": "02:14:48", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "The Accord is a start, as I mentioned. So I think this is a continuing conversation.", "text_unedited": "The the Accord is a start, as I mentioned. So I think this is a continuing conversation." }, { "turn_id": 192, "start_sec": 8088.47, "end_sec": 8090.87, "start_hms": "02:14:48", "end_hms": "02:14:50", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Miss Bren?" }, { "turn_id": 193, "start_sec": 8098.025, "end_sec": 8135.955, "start_hms": "02:14:58", "end_hms": "02:15:35", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "So, as the other witnesses noted, the accord at the White House, which we also signed, called for internal controls, partnering with external auditors and evaluators and, ongoing monitoring systems, all of which we think is very healthy and much of which, we already practice. I'll also note that, towards the end of the accord, it observes that it may be necessary for these commitments to become part of law. And as I said at the top, we have long, worked towards a federal framework for AI safety.", "text_unedited": "So, as the other witnesses noted, the accord at the White House, which we also signed, called for internal controls, partnering with external auditors and evaluators and, ongoing monitoring systems, all of which we think is very healthy and much of which, we already practice. I'll also note that, towards the end of the accord, it observes that it may be necessary for these commitments to become part of law. And as I said at the top, we have long, worked towards a federal framework for AI safety." }, { "turn_id": 194, "start_sec": 8137.41, "end_sec": 8138.85, "start_hms": "02:15:37", "end_hms": "02:15:38", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you, Mr. Graham.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, mister Graham." }, { "turn_id": 195, "start_sec": 8145.17, "end_sec": 8202.41, "start_hms": "02:15:45", "end_hms": "02:16:42", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. Likewise, the accords to my understanding from what's public calls for security standards, internal controls, independent evaluation. We support that and have for a very long time. We also obviously think this needs to go further. We've supported regulation, and we've proposed our view on regulation in our advanced AI framework, which details the need to have safety frameworks, testing, and what kinds, security standards, safeguards to encode the need for independent evaluators. We are now trialing our own to advance the science of independent auditors as well as safety processes as well as investing in cyber and biodefense. And in absence of federal legislation here, we've also supported safety bills at the state level for audits and evals of this kind to accomplish this.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Likewise, the accords to my understanding from what's public calls for security standards, internal controls, independent evaluation. We support that and have for a very long time. We also obviously think this needs to go further. We've supported regulation, and we've proposed our view on regulation in our advanced AI framework, which details the need to have safety frameworks, testing, and what kinds, security standards, safeguards to encode the need for independent evaluators. We are now trialing our own to help... So advance the science of independent auditors as well as safety processes as well as investing in cyber and biodefense. And in absence of federal legislation here, we've also supported safety bills at the state level for audits and evals of this kind to accomplish this." }, { "turn_id": 196, "start_sec": 8204.925, "end_sec": 8230.82, "start_hms": "02:16:44", "end_hms": "02:17:10", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you for your answer. Earlier, you all testified that, to your knowledge, no whistleblowers had been fired directly for being whistleblowers, from your company. So my question is kind of the opposite of that. Has anyone been fired for building models that it cannot control, or for those models hacking into businesses or government systems?", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your answer. Earlier, you all testified that, to your knowledge, no whistleblowers had been fired directly for being whistleblowers, from your company. So my question is kind of the opposite of that. Has anyone been fired for building models that it cannot control, or for those models hacking into businesses or government systems?" }, { "turn_id": 197, "start_sec": 8237.115, "end_sec": 8238.796, "start_hms": "02:17:17", "end_hms": "02:17:18", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Ms. Dwyer, you can begin.", "text_unedited": "Miss Dwyer, you can begin." }, { "turn_id": 198, "start_sec": 8239.275, "end_sec": 8282.28, "start_hms": "02:17:19", "end_hms": "02:18:02", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Thank you. So I don't know, about HR processes, that have been made or decisions related to HR that have been made. What I can tell you is that, after the Hugging Face incident, which I think you may be referring to, OpenAI instituted significant changes to our overall organizational process. That includes clarifying escalation pathways and making them simpler. That includes clarifying responsibilities across teams and creating clearer processes, for teams to make decisions to pause or to restart activities.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. So I I don't know, about HR processes, that have been made or decisions related to HR that have been made. What I can tell you is that, after the hugging face incident, which I think you may be referring to, OpenAI instituted significant changes to our overall organizational process. That includes clarifying escalation pathways and making them simpler. That includes clarifying responsibilities across teams and creating clearer processes, for teams to make decisions to pause or to restart activities." }, { "turn_id": 199, "start_sec": 8283.08, "end_sec": 8286.68, "start_hms": "02:18:03", "end_hms": "02:18:06", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "So to your knowledge, no one was fired after Hugging Face incident?", "text_unedited": "So to your knowledge, no one was fired after hugging face incident?" }, { "turn_id": 200, "start_sec": 8288.625, "end_sec": 8291.265, "start_hms": "02:18:08", "end_hms": "02:18:11", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes or no? I", "text_unedited": "Yes or no? I I" }, { "turn_id": 201, "start_sec": 8291.265, "end_sec": 8297.185, "start_hms": "02:18:11", "end_hms": "02:18:17", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Do not have any knowledge of HR activities within OpenAI. I lead our policy team.", "text_unedited": "do not have any knowledge of HR activities within OpenAI. I lead our policy team." }, { "turn_id": 202, "start_sec": 8298.145, "end_sec": 8298.545, "start_hms": "02:18:18", "end_hms": "02:18:18", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay.", "text_unedited": "Okay." }, { "turn_id": 203, "start_sec": 8300.53, "end_sec": 8301.73, "start_hms": "02:18:20", "end_hms": "02:18:21", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Mister Cahill?" }, { "turn_id": 204, "start_sec": 8303.57, "end_sec": 8315.41, "start_hms": "02:18:23", "end_hms": "02:18:35", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair. I also lead our AI policy, at Meta, and I'm not the right person to respond to your specific question, but I'd be happy to have, our teams follow-up with you afterwards.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. I also lead our AI policy, at at MedA, and I'm not the right person to respond to your specific question, but I'd be happy to have, our teams follow-up with you afterwards." }, { "turn_id": 205, "start_sec": 8316.025, "end_sec": 8324.905, "start_hms": "02:18:36", "end_hms": "02:18:44", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "It would be great if all of the companies could provide that information to us. It would be useful to our policy deliberations. Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "It would be great if all of the companies could provide that information to us. It's... It would be useful to our policy deliberations. Miss Friend?" }, { "turn_id": 206, "start_sec": 8326.825, "end_sec": 8335.561, "start_hms": "02:18:46", "end_hms": "02:18:55", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. Same answer. I'm not made aware of any particular personnel actions inside the company, but can also pledge to follow-up with you all.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. Same answer. I'm not made aware of any particular personnel actions inside the company, but can also pledge to follow-up with you all." }, { "turn_id": 207, "start_sec": 8337.961, "end_sec": 8357.035, "start_hms": "02:18:57", "end_hms": "02:19:17", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. It seems like we lost, Mr. Graham. I'm not sure if he's on. Seems like he's not. Okay. I'm going to ask one more question, and then we're going to pass it on to members. Chair, he is online. Sorry. Mr. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I... It seems like we lost, mister Graham. I'm not sure if he's on. Seems like he's not. Okay. I'm going to ask one more question, and then we're gonna pass it on to members. Chair, he he is online. Sorry. Mister Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 208, "start_sec": 8360.57, "end_sec": 8376.466, "start_hms": "02:19:20", "end_hms": "02:19:36", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Hi there. Apologies. We're just trying to fix the video in the room. Likewise, I'm not aware, I'm not the best person to ask on that. We have a detailed whistleblowing policy, for example, to handle this, but we can have our team follow-up.", "text_unedited": "Hi there. Apologies. We're just trying to fix the video in the room. Likewise, I'm I'm not aware, I'm not the the best person to ask on that. We have a detailed whistleblowing policy, for example, to to handle this, but we can have our team follow-up." }, { "turn_id": 209, "start_sec": 8377.266, "end_sec": 8449.88, "start_hms": "02:19:37", "end_hms": "02:20:49", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. My last question before I start to turn over to my colleagues. You know, we are concerned. I am concerned as a technology chair about public infrastructure to make our communities literate on AI, and have a better understanding of how AI impacts their life and also to safeguard them, from the proliferation of AI. Your companies and your CEOs have captured, the top percent of the world's incomes, in my opinion, widening the wage gap and the income inequality in our city and throughout. Do your companies have, a mission? Do they have any type of, understanding of the impacts that those wage gaps have in communities? And specifically, are there any resources that are being deployed in order to help stand up infrastructure in cities, municipalities, states where you all are headquartered? We can start with Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. My last question before I start to turn over to my colleagues. You know, we are concerned. I am concerned as a technology chair about public infrastructure to make our communities literate on AI, and have a better understanding of how AI impacts their life and also to safeguard them, from the proliferation of AI. Your companies and your CEOs have captured, the top percent of the the world's incomes, in my opinion, widening the wage gap and the income inequality in our city and throughout. Do your companies have, a mission? Do they have any type of, understanding of the impacts that those wage gaps have in communities? And specifically, are there any resources that are being deployed in order to help stand up infrastructure in cities, municipalities, states where you all are headquartered? We can start with Ms. Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 210, "start_sec": 8452.359, "end_sec": 8536.53, "start_hms": "02:20:52", "end_hms": "02:22:16", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I will answer your question in two ways. First, to your point on AI literacy and education, education is core to opportunity. And that's why OpenAI is proud to have partnered with the American Federation of Teachers. We have a $10 million partnership, including a training facility in New York City, because we believe first that teachers need to be prepared, to introduce AI literacy and AI responsibility into the classroom. Look. Teachers should remain in charge, and so we want them to be empowered to teach the next generation how to use AI safely and responsibly. To your broader question about economic opportunity, I'd be happy to follow-up with, some policy proposals that OpenAI recently put forward that address, exactly that question. Look. A future where AI exacerbates economic inequality is not a future that we want. We have started thinking through creative policy proposals, to help shift the trajectory of technology and how it's impacting the economy. And we are committed to working with policymakers to begin piloting those ideas, and putting them into practice.", "text_unedited": "So I will answer your question in two ways. First, to your point on AI literacy and education, education is core to opportunity. And that's why OpenAI is proud to have partnered with the American Federation of Teachers. We have a $10,000,000 partnership, including a training facility in New York City, because we believe first that teachers need to be prepared, to introduce AI literacy and AI responsibility into the classroom. Look. Teachers should remain in charge, and so we want them to be empowered to teach the next generation how to use AI safely and responsibly. To your broader question about economic opportunity, I'd be happy to follow-up with, some policy proposals that OpenAI recently put forward that address, exactly that question. Look. A future where AI exacerbates economic inequality is not a future that we want. We have started thinking through creative policy proposals, to help shift the trajectory of technology and how it's impacting the economy. And we are committed to working with policymakers to begin piloting those ideas, and putting them into practice." }, { "turn_id": 211, "start_sec": 8537.649, "end_sec": 8538.93, "start_hms": "02:22:17", "end_hms": "02:22:18", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Mister Cahill?" }, { "turn_id": 212, "start_sec": 8541.465, "end_sec": 8604.855, "start_hms": "02:22:21", "end_hms": "02:23:24", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Chair, thank you very much. This is such an important topic, such an important question. So thank you for asking it. I listened with great interest to your opening remarks where you spoke about digital divide and AI literacy and making sure that New Yorkers fully benefit from this technology. Really couldn't agree with you more on all of that. Meta's vision is to put personal superintelligence into the hands of everyone, all New Yorkers that want to use it to pursue their own aspirations. Our Muse product, for example, is free. And I mentioned our Muse for small business, a little earlier, and We'll be happy to talk a little bit more about that as the day moves on. I also wanted to mention as well that we have America's Workforce Academy, which we're investing in, and also our futures for everyone fund. So those are just two examples I wanted to reference as well. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Chair, thank you very much. This is such an important topic, such an important question. So thank you for for asking it. I listened with great interest to your opening remarks where you spoke about digital divide and AI literacy and making sure that New Yorkers fully benefit from this technology. Really couldn't agree with you more on on all of that. Meta's vision is to put personal superintelligence into the hands of everyone, all New Yorkers that want to use it to pursue their own aspirations. Our Muse product, for example, is free. And I mentioned our our Muse for small business, a little earlier, and we... We'll be happy to talk a little bit more about that as the day moves on. I also wanted to mention as well that we have our work... America's Workforce Academy, which we're investing in, and also our futures for everyone fund. So those are just two two two examples I wanted to to reference as well. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 213, "start_sec": 8606.375, "end_sec": 8608.216, "start_hms": "02:23:26", "end_hms": "02:23:28", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Miss Bren?" }, { "turn_id": 214, "start_sec": 8609.815, "end_sec": 8673.38, "start_hms": "02:23:29", "end_hms": "02:24:33", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. As I mentioned earlier, Google has investments in AI upscaling to address exactly this challenge of ensuring that, current generations and the next generation are well equipped to benefit from AI and to, leverage it in their careers and in their personal lives. The mission of Google is to organize the world's information and to make it universally accessible and useful. Our approach to AI is very consistent with this. The other thing I'll note is that, again, early research into impacts of AI on labor demonstrate that AI tools actually upscale those who are at the lower end of the wage scale, that in fact it helps people move up the value chain because it can boost people's expertise. So we're very optimistic about the ability of everyday Americans to really leverage AI tools, for their own economic benefit as well as personal benefit.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. As I mentioned earlier, Google has investments in AI upscaling to address exactly this challenge of ensuring that, current generations and the next generation are well equipped to benefit from AI and to, leverage it in their careers and in their personal lives. The mission of Google is to organize the world's information and to make it universally accessible and useful. Our approach to AI is very consistent with this. The other thing I'll note is that, again, early research into impacts of AI on labor demonstrate that AI tools actually upscale those who are at the lower end of the wage scale, that in fact it helps people move up the value chain because it can boost people's expertise. So we're very optimistic about the ability of of everyday Americans to really leverage AI tools, for their own economic benefit as well as personal benefit." }, { "turn_id": 215, "start_sec": 8674.18, "end_sec": 8675.7, "start_hms": "02:24:34", "end_hms": "02:24:35", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Mr. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Mister Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 216, "start_sec": 8679.54, "end_sec": 8714.655, "start_hms": "02:24:39", "end_hms": "02:25:14", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. Likewise, first, we believe in two things are very important to happen here. The first is the science of the economic impacts of AI, including on labor, wages, and the like. And we have tried to build what I think is the world's best team on this and publish as much as we can. In addition, my understanding is we do have training on using and speeding up on AI for exactly this reason. We share that mission very deeply. And, I will say again, we are troubleshooting the video, and I will be back with you very shortly.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Likewise, first, we believe in in two things are very important to happen here. The first is the science of the economic impacts of AI, including on labor, wages, and and the like. And we have tried to build what I think is the world's best team on this and publish as much as we can. In addition, my understanding is we do have training on using and speeding up on on AI for exactly this reason. We we share that that mission very deeply. And, I will I will say again, we are troubleshooting the video, and I will be back with you very shortly." }, { "turn_id": 217, "start_sec": 8716.335, "end_sec": 8743.476, "start_hms": "02:25:16", "end_hms": "02:25:43", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. I'm sure you have the best in the nation helping you out there. So we are going to move on to member questions. I want to remind members that there'll be about a minute to ask your questions, but there will be multiple rounds. We are asking members to try to ask all your questions first and then wait for the response, and we have about 30 members on round one. We will start with our Deputy Speaker, Williams.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I'm sure you have the best in the nation helping you out there. So we are going to move on to member questions. I wanna remind members that there'll be about a minute to ask your questions, but there will be multiple rounds. We are asking members to try to ask all your questions first and then wait for the response, and we have about 30 members on round one. We will start with our deputy speaker, Williams." }, { "turn_id": 218, "start_sec": 8745.955, "end_sec": 8770.225, "start_hms": "02:25:45", "end_hms": "02:26:10", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Hello. I'm going to just jump right into a question on my bill. So it has to do with unauthorized depictions of officials by AI. What steps have you taken to ensure that your AI tools cannot be used to create deep fakes of public officials or to spread misinformation? Anyone, I guess, Mrs. Dwyer?", "text_unedited": "Hello. I'm gonna just jump right into a question on my bill. So it has to do with unauthorized depictions of officials by AI. What steps have you taken to ensure that your AI tools cannot be used to create deep fakes of public officials or to spread misinformation? Anyone, I guess, missus Dwyer?" }, { "turn_id": 219, "start_sec": 8771.265, "end_sec": 8824.935, "start_hms": "02:26:11", "end_hms": "02:27:04", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "We're going to keep starting with me. I'm happy to answer that question. Thank you, for that, and thank you for your bill. Look. OpenAI's usage policies prohibit the use of our tools for election interference. We also believe it is very important that individuals know where their content came from and whether it was AI generated. And that's why for all of our audio visual, content, we tag it with what's called provenance. That's a technical term, but it means like a watermark or metadata, so that people know the content is AI generated. And we also make publicly available a tool, that allows the public to test whether content was AI generated.", "text_unedited": "We're gonna keep starting with me. I'm happy to answer that question. Thank you, for that, and thank you for your bill. Look. OpenAI, does not believe and... Well, let me back up. OpenAI's usage policies prohibit the use of our tools for election interference. We also believe it is very important that individuals know where their content came from and whether it was AI generated. And that's why for all of our audio visual, content, we tag it with what's called provenance. That's a technical term, but it means like a watermark or metadata, so that people know the content is AI generated. And we also make publicly available a tool, that allows the public to test whether content was AI generated." }, { "turn_id": 220, "start_sec": 8829.335, "end_sec": 8830.615, "start_hms": "02:27:09", "end_hms": "02:27:10", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Mr. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Mister Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 221, "start_sec": 8834.295, "end_sec": 8867.025, "start_hms": "02:27:14", "end_hms": "02:27:47", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Our model Claude is a language model, and so it doesn't generate images. Therefore, we sort of don't, so handle deepfakes as a result. That said, we think it's important for a number of other reasons that we can get into to do what we call watermarking of, text in order to identify if our models themselves are being, used and misused in other ways. But, again, we don't generate images, for, in part for this reason.", "text_unedited": "So Claude... Our our model Claude is a language model, and so it doesn't generate images. Therefore, we sort of don't, so handle deepfakes as a result. That said, we think it's important for a number of other reasons that we can get into to do what we call watermarking of, text in order to identify if our models themselves are being, used and misused in other ways. But, again, we we don't generate images, for, in part for this reason." }, { "turn_id": 222, "start_sec": 8869.13, "end_sec": 8871.851, "start_hms": "02:27:49", "end_hms": "02:27:51", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill followed by Ms. Friend.", "text_unedited": "Mister Cahill followed by miss Friend." }, { "turn_id": 223, "start_sec": 8874.41, "end_sec": 8901.57, "start_hms": "02:27:54", "end_hms": "02:28:21", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Deputy Speaker, thank you very much for this question. At Meta, if content is generated by one of our AI tools, we will also embed metadata and attach watermarking to it so that people can identify if it is AI generated. Similarly, if we detect watermarking and metadata on our platforms, we will attach a label to it also.", "text_unedited": "Deputy speaker, thank you very much for this question. At Meta, if content is generated by one of our AI tools, we will also embed metadata and attach watermarking to it so that people can identify if it is AI generated. Similarly, if we detect watermarking and metadata on our platforms, we will attach a label to it also." }, { "turn_id": 224, "start_sec": 8906.529, "end_sec": 8907.49, "start_hms": "02:28:26", "end_hms": "02:28:27", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Friend?", "text_unedited": "Sven?" }, { "turn_id": 225, "start_sec": 8910.05, "end_sec": 8981.015, "start_hms": "02:28:30", "end_hms": "02:29:41", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. At Google, we are very proud to have invented our SynthID watermarking feature, which many across the industry have also adopted. We are also part of the Coalition for Content Provenance and Authenticity standard, which allows users to understand the origin of material they see online. We also require on our YouTube platform that significant use of generative AI in content be labeled as such by our creators. And we were also the first major company to require that election advertisers also prominently disclose when they are using generative AI technologies in their campaign ads. All this put together means that we care very much about information integrity, across the web and across our own products and services. And we continually invent and improve technologies to help our users understand, when they are seeing generative AI content, and also understand, the origins of that content.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. At Google, we are very proud to have invented our Synth ID watermarking feature, which many across the industry have also adopted. We are also part of the Content Coalition for Providence and Authenticity standard, which allows users to understand the origin of material they see online. We also require on our YouTube platform that significant use of generative AI in content be labeled as such by our creators. And we were also the first major company to require that election advertisers also prominently disclose when they are using generative AI technologies in their campaign ads. All this put together means that we care very much about information integrity, across the web and across our own products and services. And we continually invent and improve technologies to help our users understand, when they are seeing generative AI content, and also understand, the origins of that content." }, { "turn_id": 226, "start_sec": 8983.86, "end_sec": 9024.39, "start_hms": "02:29:43", "end_hms": "02:30:24", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Okay. Thanks. Just one more question. So as chair of the committee on cultural affairs, I also want to look at this issue through the lens of New York City's artists and creative workers. So what protections should exist when an artist's voice, likeness, performance, or creative work can be replicated by AI with their consent? So how do we embrace useful applications without devaluing or displacing the artists and creative workers who make this economy possible? So I will start, I guess. So I was going to let you off the hook and start with Oh, thank you. Mr. Graham, who still has some video technical difficulties. I", "text_unedited": "Okay. Thanks. Just one more question. So as chair of the committee on cultural affairs, I also wanna look at this issue through the lens of New York City's artists and creative workers. So what protections should exist when an artist's voice, likeness, performance, or creative work can be replicated by AI with their consent? So how do we embrace useful applications without devaluing or displacing the artists and creative workers who make this economy possible? So I will start, I guess. So I was gonna let you off the hook and start with Oh, thank you. Mister Graham, who still has some video technical difficulties. I" }, { "turn_id": 227, "start_sec": 9024.87, "end_sec": 9074.391, "start_hms": "02:30:24", "end_hms": "02:31:14", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "assure you we have a whole team here working on this. I'm... I can't wait to be back with you. Yeah. This is very, very important. I think, personally, I think the risk of this is a bit more minimized when we just have a text model, but it's really important to be very sensitive about this issue. I think while it's outside of my area of expertise as a technical safety researcher, I do think that this might be an avenue where regulation or otherwise might play a role in at Anthropic. We are compliant with all laws there. I shared that personally as an artistic person and friend of many artists for this reason. But, yeah, I... We would love to engage on it further.", "text_unedited": "assure you we we have a whole team here working on this. I'm... I can't wait to be back with you. Yeah. This is this is very, very important. I think, you know, personally, I think the the risk of this is a bit more minimized when we just have a a text model, but it's really important to, you know, be very sensitive about this issue. I think while it's, you know, it's outside of my area of expertise as a technical safety researcher, I do think that this might be an avenue where regulation or otherwise might play a role in at Anthropic. We we we are compliant with with with all laws there. I shared that, you know, personally as as, you know, an artistic person and, you know, friend of many artists for this reason. But, yeah, I I... We would love to engage on it further." }, { "turn_id": 228, "start_sec": 9077.11, "end_sec": 9078.391, "start_hms": "02:31:17", "end_hms": "02:31:18", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Mister Kehoe?" }, { "turn_id": 229, "start_sec": 9080.23, "end_sec": 9105.07, "start_hms": "02:31:20", "end_hms": "02:31:45", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Thank you very much, Deputy Speaker. Meta takes creativity, copyright, IP rights very seriously, and our practices are consistent with law. I also share the views of the rest of the witnesses just in relation to the leadership and the constructive voice that you are bringing to this conversation as well and that of your colleagues.", "text_unedited": "Thank you very much, deputy speaker. Meta takes creativity, copyright, IP rights very seriously, and our practices are consistent with law. I also share the the views of the rest of the the witnesses just in relation to the leadership and the constructive voice that you are bringing to this conversation as well and that of your colleagues." }, { "turn_id": 230, "start_sec": 9107.95, "end_sec": 9110.27, "start_hms": "02:31:47", "end_hms": "02:31:50", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Ms. Friend and lastly, Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Miss Friend and lastly, miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 231, "start_sec": 9112.205, "end_sec": 9164.45, "start_hms": "02:31:52", "end_hms": "02:32:44", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. For us, it's always important to keep in mind that we design a lot of AI to be useful to creators. So we have many, many different creative tools across our AI offerings that is designed to really be something that creators can leverage. So you see that everywhere from our tools to our YouTube platform as well. That said, we also think that as part of sharing the benefit of AI with creators, it's important that they have control. And so we have a service called Google-Extended where website owners can opt out of AI training on the web. And we hope that this strikes the right balance between AI for creativity and creator control over their content.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. For us, it's always important to keep in mind that we, design a lot of AI to be useful to creators. So we have many, many different creative tools across our AI offerings that is designed to really be something that creators can leverage. So you see that everywhere from our tools to our YouTube platform as well. That said, we also think that as part of sharing the benefit of AI with creators, it's important that they have control. And so we have a service called Google Extended where website owners can opt out of AI training on the web. And we hope that this strikes the right balance between AI for creativity and creator control over their content." }, { "turn_id": 232, "start_sec": 9167.556, "end_sec": 9210.66, "start_hms": "02:32:47", "end_hms": "02:33:30", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So we believe that AI has a tremendous potential to enable creativity and innovation, and allow small businesses or independent creators to compete. That said, we also have partnerships with publishers, for example, like News Corp, The Guardian, and Hearst that help people discover their work and their reporting, and help them reach new audiences, in addition to developing new products. And we're willing to work with creators on a range of commercial ideas, including ways that their content can be integrated into our outputs.", "text_unedited": "So we believe that AI has a tremendous potential to enable creativity and innovation, and allow small businesses or independent creators to compete. That said, we also have partnerships, with publishers, for example, like News Corp, The Guardian, and Hearst that help people discover their work and their reporting, and help them reach new audiences, in addition to developing new products. And we're willing to work with creators, on a range of commercial ideas, including ways, that their content can be integrated into our outputs." }, { "turn_id": 233, "start_sec": 9212.181, "end_sec": 9213.301, "start_hms": "02:33:32", "end_hms": "02:33:33", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 234, "start_sec": 9213.86, "end_sec": 9219.695, "start_hms": "02:33:33", "end_hms": "02:33:39", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. We will hear from Council Member Krishnan, followed by Riley, followed by Lee.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. We will hear from council member Krishnan, followed by Riley, followed by Lee." }, { "turn_id": 235, "start_sec": 9220.655, "end_sec": 9290.32, "start_hms": "02:33:40", "end_hms": "02:34:50", "speaker_name": "Shekar Krishnan", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 9, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, Speaker Menin and Chair De La Rosa. I want to start by saying that I think AI can be useful both in government, medicine, and public health, and our society more broadly. But the need for regulation is undeniable, and I'm very concerned about how much AI is taking from New Yorkers with very little return. AI has taken over our economy, inflated valuations, stealing our public land for data centers, and increasing the net worth of AI CEOs like Elon Musk, who became our first ever trillionaire. With our whole stock market quite literally in your hands, there's a reality that AI will eventually need to prove a far greater return on investment than you all are demonstrating right now. I'm personally deeply concerned about New Yorkers' retirements and 401(k)s that are now reliant on your companies yielding profits or could be in the future. It is dangerous and reckless to assume that you all are too big to fail and may require a government bailout in the future. As you all are public companies or racing towards IPOs, how exactly are you all planning to protect New Yorkers and everyday Americans' money? How will you all ensure that you are not too big to fail? Ms. Dwyer, we can start with you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, speaker Menon and chair Della Rosa. I wanna start by saying that I think AI can be useful both in government, medicine, and public health, and our society more broadly. But the need for regulation is undeniable, and I'm very concerned about how much AI is taking from New Yorkers with very little return. AI has taken over our economy, inflated valuations, stealing our public land for data centers, and increasing the net worth of AI CEOs like Elon Musk, who became our first ever trillionaire. With our whole stock market quite literally in your hands, there's a reality that AI will eventually need to prove a far greater return on investment than you all are demonstrating right now. I'm personally deeply concerned about New Yorkers' retirements and four zero one k's that are now reliant on your company's yielding profits or could be in the future. It is dangerous and reckless to assume that you all are too big to fail and may require a government bailout in the future. As you all are public companies or racing towards IPOs, how exactly are you all planning to protect New Yorkers and everyday Americans' money? How will you all ensure that you are not too big to fail? Miss Dwyer, we can start with you." }, { "turn_id": 236, "start_sec": 9292.319, "end_sec": 9335.575, "start_hms": "02:34:52", "end_hms": "02:35:35", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question. So I am not on our finance team, so I'll have to get back to you with specifics there. What I do know is that our investments are made in tranches, and they are made... The investment rounds are all based on market signals. And I also know that we are committed to working with policymakers to ensure that AI benefits humanity. That includes creative policy proposals like I mentioned previously, thinking about how we can ensure that AI doesn't exacerbate inequality and that everyday New Yorkers and everyday citizens can benefit.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the question. So I am not on our finance team, so I'll have to get back to you with specifics there. What I do know is that our investments are made in tranches, and they are made... The investment rounds are all based on market signals. And I also know that we are committed to working with policymakers to ensure that AI benefits humanity. That includes, creative policy proposals like I mentioned previously, thinking about how we can ensure that AI doesn't exacerbate inequality and that everyday New Yorkers, and everyday citizens can benefit." }, { "turn_id": 237, "start_sec": 9335.814, "end_sec": 9336.775, "start_hms": "02:35:35", "end_hms": "02:35:36", "speaker_name": "Shekar Krishnan", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 9, "text_clean": "Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "Miss Friend?" }, { "turn_id": 238, "start_sec": 9338.135, "end_sec": 9364.205, "start_hms": "02:35:38", "end_hms": "02:36:04", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Sir, I would point to the thousands of small businesses across the country and in New York City that Google's tools and services support. I think, contrary to being too big to fail, we think we are an integral part of the economy and helping American businesses and American workers across our suite of technologies.", "text_unedited": "Sir, I would point to, the thousands of small businesses across the country and in New York City that Google's tools and services support. I think, contrary to being too big to fail, we think we are an integral part of the economy and helping American businesses and American workers across our suite of technologies." }, { "turn_id": 239, "start_sec": 9364.685, "end_sec": 9365.805, "start_hms": "02:36:04", "end_hms": "02:36:05", "speaker_name": "Shekar Krishnan", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 26, "text_clean": "Mr. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Mister Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 240, "start_sec": 9369.645, "end_sec": 9394.195, "start_hms": "02:36:09", "end_hms": "02:36:34", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Council Member, this is outside of my area of expertise. What I can say in my work is my job is to protect people from the risks of models by finding them as early as possible. We have a multilayered stack and have worked for many years to make it robust, and we'll continue to do so by understanding and protecting against the most substantial risks of the models. Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Council member, this is outside of my area of expertise. What I can say in my work is my job is to protect people from the risks of models by finding them as early as possible. We have a multilayered stack and have worked for many years to to make it robust, and we'll continue to do so by understanding and protecting against the most substantial risks of the models. Mister Cahill?" }, { "turn_id": 241, "start_sec": 9395.555, "end_sec": 9442.33, "start_hms": "02:36:35", "end_hms": "02:37:22", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you very much for the question. Thousands and thousands of SMBs across the five boroughs rely on Meta's products, including our AI offerings, to grow and develop their businesses. I mentioned earlier our belief that small businesses are really the backbone of the economy. We truly believe that. And by placing personal superintelligence into the hands of everyone for free or for as affordable as possible through Muse or Muse for small business, we really believe that the small businesses and also NGOs, like the Irish Arts Center, for example, or Emerald Isle Center, are empowered to actually deliver even bigger impact.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for the question. Thousands and thousands of, SMBs across the five boroughs rely on, Meta's products, including our AI offerings, to grow and develop their businesses. I mentioned earlier our belief that, small businesses are really the backbone of the economy. We truly believe that. And by placing personal superintelligence into the hands of everyone for free or for as affordable as possible through muse or muse for small business, we really believe that the small businesses and also NGOs, like the Irish Arts Center, for example, or Emerald Isle Center, are empowered to actually deliver even bigger impact." }, { "turn_id": 242, "start_sec": 9442.649, "end_sec": 9480.105, "start_hms": "02:37:22", "end_hms": "02:38:00", "speaker_name": "Shekar Krishnan", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 9, "text_clean": "I appreciate all of your answers, but you all are coming to a hearing today to testify about the dangers and risks of artificial intelligence. And the fact that either you don't have answers to this or you all are citing general statements about the performance of publicly traded companies does not answer the question about a specific issue that puts many Americans at risk that you are acknowledging can put many Americans at risk, and you will have not thought of an answer of how you ensure that Americans' money, New Yorkers' retirement money, is not at risk as AI floats more and more of our stock markets. Our stock markets. Thank you. Council Member Krishnan. Thank you. Council Member Riley. Thank", "text_unedited": "I appreciate all of your answers, but you all are coming to a hearing today to testify about the dangers and risks of artificial intelligence. And the fact that either you don't have answers to this or you all are citing general statements about the performance of publicly traded companies does not answer the question about a specific issue that puts many Americans at risk that you are acknowledging can put many Americans at risk, and you will have not thought of an answer of how you ensure that Americans' money, New Yorkers' retirement money, is not at risk as AI floats more and more of our stock markets... Our stock markets. Thank you. Councilmember Krishnan. Thank you. Councilmember Riley. Thank" }, { "turn_id": 243, "start_sec": 9480.745, "end_sec": 9540.765, "start_hms": "02:38:00", "end_hms": "02:39:00", "speaker_name": "Kevin Riley", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 0, "text_clean": "you, Chair De La Rosa and Speaker Menin, for putting together this hearing. Thank you to the panelists for testifying. Three quick questions, two pertaining to my bill and one pertaining to my role as land use chair. So the first question is, what challenges do you face in detecting malicious uses of your AI products and identifying the individuals responsible when those tools cause harm? The second question is, would stronger protections and reporting mechanisms for employees and users make it easier for them to come forward and report potential misuse or abuse of AI tools? And the last question, as land use chair, I'm very concerned about data centers. So what safeguards should cities put in place when locating data centers near residential communities, particularly to address energy use, noise, environmental impacts, and the quality of life. And I don't want to call, when you guys just take turns to answer it, please.", "text_unedited": "you, chair Della Rosa and speaker Mendenh, for, putting together this hearing. Thank you to the panelists for testifying. Three quick questions, two pertaining to my bill and one pertaining to my role as land use chair. So the first question is, what challenges do you face in detecting malicious uses of your AI products and identifying the individuals responsible when those tools cause harm? The second question is, would stronger protections and reporting mechanisms for employees and users make it easier for them to come forward and report potential misuse or abuse of AI tools? And the last question, as land use chair, I'm very, concerned about data centers. So what safeguards should cities put in place when locating data centers near residential communities, particularly to address energy use, noise, environmental impacts, and the quality of life. And I don't wanna call when you guys just take turns to answer it, please." }, { "turn_id": 244, "start_sec": 9546.569, "end_sec": 9552.41, "start_hms": "02:39:06", "end_hms": "02:39:12", "speaker_name": "Kevin Riley", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Dwyer, Graham, Friend, Cahill, please answer.", "text_unedited": "Dwyer, Graham, friend, Cahill, please answer." }, { "turn_id": 245, "start_sec": 9557.449, "end_sec": 9662.29, "start_hms": "02:39:17", "end_hms": "02:41:02", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I'm happy to start. First of all, I want to thank you for your bill, 2604, which OpenAI is happy to support today. OpenAI takes safety issues very seriously, particularly as it relates to potential retaliation against employees. We have a strong internal policy against retaliation that... For employees that report safety incidents. And we, of course, respect employees' rights to communicate safety concerns to government officials. Your second question on monitoring misuse, it's an incredibly important area. It is something that OpenAI takes seriously. We also make transparent any... We also make transparent detected instances of misuse. And as part of our monitoring, we use that learning to constantly improve our safeguards. We are constantly innovating on safety. And so, instances of misuse when they're detected, we enforce on our policies. And then long term, we learn from them and we improve our safeguards. And the point on data centers, OpenAI is committed to paying our own way on energy. That means different things in different places, but OpenAI has made that commitment at its data centers across the country. We're also committed to working with policymakers. We signed Governor Gretchen Whitmer's commitments for companies that are working in her state to ensure that there are responsible practices for companies building data centers locally.", "text_unedited": "I'm happy to start. First of all, I wanna thank you, for your bill, $260.04, which OpenAI is happy to support today. OpenAI takes, safety issues very seriously, particularly as it relates to potential retaliation against employees. We have a strong internal policy against retaliation that... For employees that report safety incidents. And we, of course, respect employees' rights to communicate safety concerns to government officials. Your second question on monitoring misuse, it's an incredibly important area. It is something that OpenAI takes seriously. We also make transparent any... We also make transparent detected instances of misuse. And as part of our monitoring, we use that learning to constantly improve our safeguards. We, are constantly innovating on safety. And so, instances of misuse when they're detected, we enforce on our policies. And then long term, we learn from them and we improve our safeguards. And the point on data centers, OpenAI is committed to paying our own way on energy. That means different things in different places, but OpenAI has made that commitment at its data centers, across the country. We're also, committed to working with policymakers. You know, we signed, governor Gretchen Whitmer's commitments for companies that are working in her state to ensure that there are responsible practices, for companies building data centers locally." }, { "turn_id": 246, "start_sec": 9667.365, "end_sec": 9668.485, "start_hms": "02:41:07", "end_hms": "02:41:08", "speaker_name": "Kevin Riley", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 0, "text_clean": "Mr. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Mister Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 247, "start_sec": 9669.524, "end_sec": 9676.405, "start_hms": "02:41:09", "end_hms": "02:41:16", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Hi. It's good to be back. You can see me again, I hope. So, on misuse", "text_unedited": "Hi. It's it's good to be back. You can see me again, I hope. So, on misuse" }, { "turn_id": 248, "start_sec": 9676.405, "end_sec": 9684.851, "start_hms": "02:41:16", "end_hms": "02:41:24", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "and detecting risks, this is integral to what we do. Can you get closer to the microphone? We're having trouble hearing you. Sorry.", "text_unedited": "and detecting risks, this is integral to what we do. Can you get closer to the microphone? We're having trouble hearing you. Sorry." }, { "turn_id": 249, "start_sec": 9687.729, "end_sec": 9760.535, "start_hms": "02:41:27", "end_hms": "02:42:40", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Now we can't hear you at all. Hear you. K. I will have the team troubleshoot, and I'll be... Okay. I'll be back if that's okay. We hear you. We hear you. Try now. Try. Go ahead. How about now? Does this work? This works. Okay. My apologies. Detecting threats and misuse is the core DNA of our company to make sure that we make the system safe. We have an entire threat intelligence and safeguards team dedicated to this every day, and I would point you to quite a lot of what we put out publicly where we not only try to disclose as much as we possibly can, but we try to do so so that we could advance the state of the science of doing so for the entire industry. In addition, we have a whistleblower policy not only about us as a company, but also our safety practices. This is public, we've also committed to ongoing reviews of this policy. And while this is outside my area of expertise, what I understand about data centers that we have committed to covering the energy prices or making... paying for our own energy use in local data centers. But I would refer to other teams who are more... Where it's within their sole role to give you the full answer.", "text_unedited": "Now we can't hear you at all.... Hear you. K. I will have the team troubleshoot, and I'll be Okay. I'll be back if that's okay. We hear you. We hear you. Try now. Try... Go ahead. How about how about now? Does this work? This works. Okay. My apologies. Detecting threats and misuse is the core DNA of our company to make sure that we make the system safe. We have an entire threat intelligence and safeguards team dedicated to this every day, and I would point you to quite a lot of what we put out publicly where we not only try to disclose as much as we possibly can, but we try to do so so that we could advance the state of the science of doing so for the entire industry. In addition, we have, a whistleblower policy not only about us as a company, but also our safety practices. This is public, we've also committed to to ongoing reviews, of this policy. And while this is outside my area of expertise, what I understand about data centers that we have committed to covering the energy prices or making... You know, paying paying for our own energy use in local data centers. But I would I would refer to other teams who are more... Where it's within their their sole role to give you the full answer." }, { "turn_id": 250, "start_sec": 9767.03, "end_sec": 9768.15, "start_hms": "02:42:47", "end_hms": "02:42:48", "speaker_name": "Kevin Riley", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 28, "text_clean": "Ms. Friend? Oh,", "text_unedited": "Miss Friend? Oh," }, { "turn_id": 251, "start_sec": 9769.03, "end_sec": 9772.79, "start_hms": "02:42:49", "end_hms": "02:42:52", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "go ahead. Sorry. I got a notification. Let's go ahead.", "text_unedited": "go ahead. Sorry. I got a a notification. Let's go ahead." }, { "turn_id": 252, "start_sec": 9774.795, "end_sec": 9814.065, "start_hms": "02:42:54", "end_hms": "02:43:34", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "So I will echo my colleagues. We also have content policies that we enforce across our platforms, which include, on occasion, taking down content that violates those policies. We also have a Google Threat Intelligence Group and multiple other cybersecurity intelligence programs that are constantly scanning for the safety and security of the Internet as a whole and also for our own systems. We have also pledged to pay our own way when it comes to data centers. I can follow up on any specific questions about local data center issues with the teams that work on each particular project.", "text_unedited": "So I will echo my colleagues. We also have content policies that we enforce across our platforms, which include, on occasion, taking down content that violates those policies. We also have a Google Threat Intelligence Group and multiple other cybersecurity, intelligence programs that are constantly scanning, for the the safety and security of the Internet as a whole and also for our own systems. We have also pledged to pay our own way when it comes to data centers. I can follow-up on any specific questions about local data center issues with the teams that work on each particular project." }, { "turn_id": 253, "start_sec": 9819.3, "end_sec": 9820.82, "start_hms": "02:43:39", "end_hms": "02:43:40", "speaker_name": "Kevin Riley", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill, go ahead.", "text_unedited": "Mister Cahill, go ahead." }, { "turn_id": 254, "start_sec": 9821.46, "end_sec": 9895.455, "start_hms": "02:43:41", "end_hms": "02:44:55", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Thank you very much, Council Member. Appreciate your patience there. In relation to your first question and your third question, we have expert teams that are taking forward this work, and I'd be happy to connect you with him. Connect you with them afterwards. I don't wish to be imprecise in relation to the robustness of our content policies. In relation to data centers, again, we have entire teams of people here who are working on sustainable infrastructure and community impact and can speak more... In more detail than I can in relation to communities shouldn't be bearing the costs, which is something that we believe in deeply. In relation to your bill, Council Member, 2604, thank you very much for being a constructive voice in the conversation around whistleblowers. It is very important to us at Meta, and we maintain whistleblower policies, including anti-retaliation. And we're actually developing additional reporting protocols for AI safety.", "text_unedited": "Thank you very much, council member. Appreciate your patience there. In relation to your your first question and, and your third question, we have expert teams that are taking forward this work, and I'd be happy to to connect you with him... Connect you with them afterwards. I don't wish to be imprecise in relation to the robustness of of of our of our of our content policies. In relation to to data centers, again, we have entire teams of people here who are working on sustainable infrastructure and community impact and can speak more... In more detail than I can in relation to communities shouldn't be bearing the costs, which is something that we believe in deeply. In relation to your bill, council member 26 o o four, thank you very much for for being a constructive voice in the conversation around whistleblowers. It is very important, to us, at Meta, and we maintain, whistleblower policies, including anti retaliation. And we're actually developing additional reporting protocols for AI safety." }, { "turn_id": 255, "start_sec": 9897.649, "end_sec": 9945.765, "start_hms": "02:44:57", "end_hms": "02:45:45", "speaker_name": "Kevin Riley", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 0, "text_clean": "Thank you. I appreciate the structure that you guys have, but I don't know if you guys entirely answered the question I asked. I really wanted to figure out what challenges you guys were seeing because challenges... Hearing the challenges from you all will help us implement policy that can kind of protect individuals from artificial intelligence. So I don't want to take off too much time, but looking forward to connecting with you all after. Specifically, when it comes to data centers, also want to hear any safeguards because there are tremendous amount of data centers. Even though there was a moratorium put out earlier by the governor, there were data centers that were implemented by a lot of residential areas, especially in the Northeast Bronx. We have data centers that are located next to homes, and we have a lot of residents who are concerned. So we'd love to hear more about that, moving forward. Thank you so much, Chair. Thank you, Council Member. Up next, we have", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I appreciate the structure that you guys have, but I don't know if you guys entirely answered the question I asked. I really wanted to figure out what challenges you guys were seeing because challenges... Hearing the challenges from you all will help us implement policy that can kinda protect individuals from artificial intelligence. So I don't wanna take off too much time, but, looking forward to connecting with you all after. Specifically, when it comes to data centers, also wanna hear any safeguards because there are tremendous amount of data centers. Even though there was a moratorium put out earlier by the governor, there were data centers that were implemented by a lot of residential areas, especially in the Northeast Bronx. We have data centers that are located next to homes, and we have a lot of residents who are concerned. So we'd love to hear more about that, moving forward. Thank you so much, chair. Thank you, council member. Up next, we have" }, { "turn_id": 256, "start_sec": 9946.085, "end_sec": 9949.365, "start_hms": "02:45:46", "end_hms": "02:45:49", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Council Members Hanks, Dinowitz, and Maloney.", "text_unedited": "council members Hanks, Dinowitz, and Maloney." }, { "turn_id": 257, "start_sec": 9949.604, "end_sec": 9994.04, "start_hms": "02:45:49", "end_hms": "02:46:34", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. Thank you everyone for being here. My question is in relation to the disclosure of AI incidents in contracts. When an AI incident happens, New Yorkers need to have an early warning so they can understand. And my bill will require city agencies covered under these contracts to notify NYC Cyber Command within 24 hours of learning of a reportable incident. And it also requires plain language public notice. So my question is, can your companies realistically meet that deadline and, with the information that the city can act on even before you have finished investigating? You could start with Ms. Dwyer.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. Thank you everyone for being here. My question is in relation to the disclosure of AI incidents in contracts. When an AI incident happens, New Yorkers need to have an early warning so they can understand. And my bill will require city agencies covered under these contracts to notify NYC Cyber Command within twenty four hours of learning of a reportable incident. And it also requires plain language public notice. So my question is, can your companies realistically meet that deadline and, you know, with the information that the city can act on even before you have, finished investigating? You could start with, miss Dwyer." }, { "turn_id": 258, "start_sec": 9996.475, "end_sec": 10021.54, "start_hms": "02:46:36", "end_hms": "02:47:01", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So thank you for your bill. We support incident reporting policies and have instituted a robust incident reporting framework internally, where any employee can report instances of potential misalignment. And then those instances are investigated. Third parties are notified, and the public is made aware as well.", "text_unedited": "So thank you for your bill. We support incident reporting policies, and have instituted, a robust incident reporting framework internally, where any employee can report instances of potential misalignment. And then those, instances are investigated. Third parties are notified, and the public is made aware as well." }, { "turn_id": 259, "start_sec": 10023.215, "end_sec": 10024.896, "start_hms": "02:47:03", "end_hms": "02:47:04", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "Thank you. Mr. Cahill?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Mister Cahill?" }, { "turn_id": 260, "start_sec": 10027.535, "end_sec": 10038.82, "start_hms": "02:47:07", "end_hms": "02:47:18", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Thank you, Council Member, and thank you also for your bill. We have a global incident response program and report incidents as required under the law.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, council member, and thank you also for for your for your bill. We have, a global incident response program and report incidents as, as required under the law." }, { "turn_id": 261, "start_sec": 10041.46, "end_sec": 10081.19, "start_hms": "02:47:21", "end_hms": "02:48:01", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Ms. Friend? We also support incident reporting. We think it's very important to have continued public discussions about what information is necessary or useful for public officials that can be actionable to take further steps to ensure public safety. We also note that the 24 hours seems to be in conflict with the state requirements for 72-hour reporting on incidents. But I'm happy to take a look at the different frameworks under proposal and get back to you with a more fulsome response.", "text_unedited": "Miss Friend? We also support incident reporting. We think it's very important to have continued public discussions about what information is necessary, or useful, for, public officials, that can be actionable to take further steps to ensure public safety. We also note that the twenty four hours seems to be in conflict with the state, requirements for seventy two hour reporting on incidents. But I'm happy to take a look at the different frameworks, under proposal and get back to you with a more fulsome response." }, { "turn_id": 262, "start_sec": 10082.125, "end_sec": 10089.485, "start_hms": "02:48:02", "end_hms": "02:48:09", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "Sorry. I appreciate that. Mr. Graham, who kind of looks like an AI guy in there.", "text_unedited": "Sorry. I appreciate that. Mister Graham, who kinda looks like an AI guy in there." }, { "turn_id": 263, "start_sec": 10091.085, "end_sec": 10149.896, "start_hms": "02:48:11", "end_hms": "02:49:09", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Can you confirm you're not an AI guy? Sorry. I can confirm. Can you hear me okay now? Does this work? No? We hear you. We hear you. Okay. Thank you. I'm an AI guy, but in a very different way, I'm an AI researcher. So first, incident reporting, one of the foundational parts of the safety stack, we think. We support this. We support the evaluations and auditing required to find the instance in the first place, both by externals and internal. Obviously, it's beyond me to discuss particular... It's outside my expertise to understand sort of deep sort of policy mechanisms here. But the reality from what I've seen is there are some incidents or issues where what you need to do is investigate and remediate and mitigate with the right folks in the right organizations at the right time. So I think we would support whatever allows us to achieve that, and happy to in... Engage further on the details of how you would.", "text_unedited": "Can you confirm you're not an AI guy? Sorry. I can confirm. Can you can you hear me okay now? Does this work? No? We hear you. We hear you. Okay. Thank you. I'm an AI guy, but in a very different way, I'm an AI researcher. So first, incident reporting, one of the foundational parts of the safety stack, we think. We support this. We support the evaluations and auditing required to find the instance in the first place, both by externals and internal. Obviously, it's beyond me to discuss particular. It's outside my expertise to understand sort of deep sort of policy mechanisms here. But the reality from what I've seen is there are some incidents or issues where what you need to do is investigate and remediate and mitigate with the right folks in the right organizations at the right time. So I think we we would support whatever allows us to achieve that, and happy to in in... Engage further on on the details of how you would." }, { "turn_id": 264, "start_sec": 10151.096, "end_sec": 10174.965, "start_hms": "02:49:11", "end_hms": "02:49:34", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "I appreciate that. Thank you so much. What should the first report tell us so we could begin protecting people? And as my colleague, Council Member Riley, said, your answers help us build better policy. So how would you keep us updated on what remains unknown? Ms. Dwyer?", "text_unedited": "I I appreciate that. Thank you so much. What should the first report tell us so we could begin, protecting people? And as my colleague, council member Riley said, you know, your answers help us build better policy. So how would you keep us updated on what remains unknown? Miss Dwyer?" }, { "turn_id": 265, "start_sec": 10177.364, "end_sec": 10211.271, "start_hms": "02:49:37", "end_hms": "02:50:11", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. So OpenAI has instances that we've detected of misalignment. So I would point you there and we can follow up with that website address. But I think that is a good starting point for the type of information that we think is useful to both policymakers, the public, and to researchers and other companies to better understand questions of misalignment and then work together to address them. Thank you, Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So OpenAI, has instances that we've detected of misalignment. So I would point you there and we can follow-up, with that, website address. But I think that is a good starting point for the type of information that we think is useful to both policymakers, the public, and to researchers and other companies, to better understand questions of misalignment and then work together to address them. Thank you, mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 266, "start_sec": 10212.31, "end_sec": 10220.391, "start_hms": "02:50:12", "end_hms": "02:50:20", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, if I may, I'd love to be able to contact you with our experts in incident response to be able to provide you with the details.", "text_unedited": "Council member, if I may, I'd I'd love to be able to contact you with our experts in incident response to be able to provide you, with the details." }, { "turn_id": 267, "start_sec": 10220.87, "end_sec": 10223.255, "start_hms": "02:50:20", "end_hms": "02:50:23", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "I look forward to that. Ms. Friend?", "text_unedited": "I look forward to that. Miss Wren?" }, { "turn_id": 268, "start_sec": 10225.175, "end_sec": 10266.74, "start_hms": "02:50:25", "end_hms": "02:51:06", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yeah. For an initial report, I think what's important is to highlight what the specific event is and as much information as is known at the time, including any resulting harms, surrounding context, and what we call technical telemetry, further technical details about the sources of the incident. I think it's also very important for anyone reporting an incident to also indicate their confidence in the information that they're presenting, so that whenever action is taken, it's taken on the basis of confidence in the verified nature of information.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. For, an initial report, I think what's important is to highlight what the specific event is and as much information as is known at the time, including any resulting harms, surrounding context, and what we call technical telemetry, you know, further technical details about the the sources of the incident. I think it's also very important for anyone reporting an incident to also indicate, their confidence in the information that they're presenting, so that whenever action is taken, it's taken on the basis of of confidence in the the verified nature of information." }, { "turn_id": 269, "start_sec": 10267.46, "end_sec": 10269.38, "start_hms": "02:51:07", "end_hms": "02:51:09", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Mr. Graham?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Mister Graham?" }, { "turn_id": 270, "start_sec": 10272.26, "end_sec": 10342.315, "start_hms": "02:51:12", "end_hms": "02:52:22", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. So, first, making really good reports happen and being as transparent as possible is fundamental if you're going to remediate incidents. I would point to two things here. First, many incidents that we uncover or industry uncovers in this practice involves identifying and investigating and releasing the right information to the right organizations at the right time. Sometimes that might be the affected party, and sometimes that might be law enforcement or different levels of government. So the first question is to whom and with whom as fast as possible. This varies by the nature of the incident. And then second, I point to, as quickly as possible, as safe as possible without putting parties further at harm, which we think is a fundamentally important part of public disclosure, maintaining their safety, we should disclose what we know about these incidents. And so I'd point you to our disclosures this summer, disclosures from various labs, and our ongoing reporting as well, so that you can always take a retroactive look at the socialities and students. Thank", "text_unedited": "Yeah. So, first, making really good reports happen and being as transparent as possible is fundamental if you're going to remediate incidents. I would point to two things here. First, many incidents that we uncover or industry uncovers in this practice involves identifying and investigating and releasing the right information to the right organizations at the right time. Sometimes that might be the affected party, and sometimes that might be law enforcement or different levels of government. So the first question is to whom and with whom as fast as possible. This varies by the nature of the incident. And then second, I point to, as quickly as possible, as safe as possible without putting parties further at harm, which we think is a fundamentally important part of public disclosure, maintaining their safety, we should disclose what we know about these incidents. And so I'd point you to our disclosures this summer, disclosures from various labs, and our, you know, ongoing reporting as well, so that you can always take a retroactive look at the socialities and students. Thank" }, { "turn_id": 271, "start_sec": 10342.795, "end_sec": 10345.675, "start_hms": "02:52:22", "end_hms": "02:52:25", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "you so much. Thank you, Chair. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "you so much. Thank you, chair. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 272, "start_sec": 10346.155, "end_sec": 10377.87, "start_hms": "02:52:26", "end_hms": "02:52:57", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "So we're going to go to... I want to recognize first that we've been joined by Council Member Aldebol, and we're going to go to Dinowitz, Lee, and Maloney. Members, if you could keep your question to one minute, no closing statements. And the panel, we're going to continue to have to call your names, and that takes time. So if we could just keep the order, Dwyer, Cahill, Friend, and Graham, just answer right, one right after the other so we don't have to continue to call your names. That would help us speed things along. Council Member Dinowitz. Thank you, Madam Chair.", "text_unedited": "So we're gonna go to... I wanna recognize first that we've been joined by council member Aldabal, and we're gonna go to Dinowitz, Lee, and Maloney. Members, if you could keep your question to one minute, no closing statements. And the panel, we're going to continue to have to call your names, and that takes time. So if we could just keep the order, Dwyer, Kay Hill, Friend, and Graham, just answer right... One right after the other so we don't have to continue to call your names. That would help us speed things along. Council member Dinowitz. Thank you, madam chair." }, { "turn_id": 273, "start_sec": 10378.51, "end_sec": 10461.085, "start_hms": "02:52:58", "end_hms": "02:54:21", "speaker_name": "Eric Dinowitz", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 31, "text_clean": "As chair of the community education, as a former teacher, as a parent, I am deeply concerned with the impact of AI on our kids. The large language models impacting their cognitive development and raising a generation of students who can't independently read or write. What is your commitment to severely restricting the output of your large language models for students in grades K to 12, which right now are easy to circumvent to prevent both emotional dependence and essay writing. And given the unique nature of the individualized essay writing that your models do, are you willing to subject yourself to the guardrails we have in New York State which prohibit an adult from writing essays for students and selling it to them or getting value from them? And then as we see AI proliferate in the classroom, we've also seen your models cheat in order to fulfill a goal. And so if you have an AI model whose goal is to get a student, improve student outcomes, what is preventing those models from hacking into student databases to manipulate grades to achieve that goal of improving, in quotation marks, student achievement? And it's Ms. Dwyer first, I believe.", "text_unedited": "As chair of the community education, as a as a former teacher, as a parent, I am deeply concerned, with the impact of AI on our kids. The, you know, large language models impacting their cognitive development and raising a generation of students who can't independently read or write. What is your commitment to severely restricting the output of your large language models for students in grades k to 12, which, right now are easy to circumvent to prevent both emotional dependence and essay writing. And given the unique nature of the individualized, essay writing that your models do, are you willing to subject yourself to the guardrails we have in New York State which prohibit, an adult from writing essays for students and selling it to them or getting value, from them? And then as we see AI proliferate in the classroom, we've also seen your models cheat in order to fulfill a goal. And so if you have an AI model whose goal is to get a student, improve student outcomes, what is preventing those models from hacking into student databases to manipulate grades to achieve that goal of improving, in quotation marks, student achievement? And it's, miss Dwyer first, I believe." }, { "turn_id": 274, "start_sec": 10462.48, "end_sec": 10538.335, "start_hms": "02:54:22", "end_hms": "02:55:38", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for your question. So first of all, OpenAI takes youth safety very seriously. We recently released a product, ChatGPT for teens, for users only between the ages of 13 and 17. So users below the age of 13 are not allowed to use our products. ChatGPT for teens is safe by default. That means that there are protections for harmful content, things like eating disorders, violence, suicide, and self-harm. There's also voluntary parental controls so that parents can take additional steps to protect their children. And I'm happy to say that OpenAI not only takes our responsibility to protect kids seriously, we also support legislation to hold us accountable to that responsibility. We recently endorsed the, I think, the strongest in the nation youth safety legislation in California, SB one nine, to require strong safeguards for teens 13 to 17, and to hold companies accountable.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for your question. So first of all, OpenAI takes youth safety very seriously. We recently released a product, ChatGPT for teens, for users only between the ages of 13 and 17. So users below the age of 13 are not allowed to use our products. ChatGPT for teens is safe by default. That means that there are, protections for harmful content, things like eating disorders, violence, suicide, and self harm. There's also voluntary parental controls so that parents can take additional steps to protect their children. And I'm happy to say that OpenAI not only takes our responsibility to protect kids seriously, we also support legislation to hold us accountable, to that responsibility. We recently endorsed, the, I think, the strongest in the nation, youth safety legislation in California, s b one one one nine, to require strong safeguards for teens 13 to 17, and to hold companies accountable." }, { "turn_id": 275, "start_sec": 10540.335, "end_sec": 10544.255, "start_hms": "02:55:40", "end_hms": "02:55:44", "speaker_name": "Eric Dinowitz", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 31, "text_clean": "And your models restrict. They do not write entire essays for kids?", "text_unedited": "And your models restrict... They they do not write entire essays for kids?" }, { "turn_id": 276, "start_sec": 10546.83, "end_sec": 10553.39, "start_hms": "02:55:46", "end_hms": "02:55:53", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Again, our models are not allowed to be used by kids under the age of 13. 13 to 18.", "text_unedited": "Again, our models are, not allowed to be used by kids under the age of 13. 13 to 18." }, { "turn_id": 277, "start_sec": 10555.55, "end_sec": 10558.189, "start_hms": "02:55:55", "end_hms": "02:55:58", "speaker_name": "Eric Dinowitz", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 31, "text_clean": "Okay. We'll move on to Mr. Cahill.", "text_unedited": "Okay. We'll, move on to mister Cahill." }, { "turn_id": 278, "start_sec": 10559.245, "end_sec": 10628.945, "start_hms": "02:55:59", "end_hms": "02:57:08", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you very much for this question. Absolutely recognize your deep concern in relation to the potential impact of AI on teens and minors. Meta is absolutely committed. It's an imperative to us providing safe and responsible AI, especially for teens. We have default protections, and I just wanted to clarify as well that Meta AI is for a PG-13 product. So it's just 13 to... 13 onwards. So I was just talking about age-appropriate interactions. So for example, content that teens would experience wouldn't be out of place in a PG-13 movie, for example. We also have suicide and self-harm resources. We also have parental controls to give parents more oversight, and we do not permit our AI offerings to engage in romantic interactions or sexual interactions with minors.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for this question. Absolutely, absolutely recognize your deep concern in relation to, the potential impact, of AI on on on teams and and minorities. Meta is absolutely committed. It's an imperative to us providing safe and responsible AI, especially for teams. We have default protections, and I just wanted to clarify as well that Meta AI is for a 13 product. So it's just 13 to... 13 onwards. So I was just talking about age appropriate interactions. So for example, content that teens would experience wouldn't be out of place in a in a 13 movie, for example. We also have suicide and self harm resources. We also have parental controls to give parents more oversight, and we do not permit, our AI offerings, to engage in romantic, interactions or sexual interactions with with minors." }, { "turn_id": 279, "start_sec": 10630.17, "end_sec": 10660.45, "start_hms": "02:57:10", "end_hms": "02:57:40", "speaker_name": "Eric Dinowitz", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 31, "text_clean": "I appreciate the answer. I do want to highlight the part of the question which was the cognitive development of our students includes the mental health, and it also includes things like composition of essays, term papers, which your model still can provide directly to our students. So I'm also asking about your commitment to severely restricting the outputs, not just for their mental health well-being, but for their cognitive development. So I want to make sure that question is answered as part of this. Thank you, Chair.", "text_unedited": "I I appreciate the answer. I do wanna highlight the part of the question which was the the cognitive development of our students includes the mental health, and it also includes things like, composition of essays, term papers, which your model still can provide directly to our students. So I'm also asking about your commitment to severely restricting the outputs, not just for their, mental health well-being, but for their cognitive development. So I wanna make sure that question is answered as part of this. Thank you, chair." }, { "turn_id": 280, "start_sec": 10662.37, "end_sec": 10667.17, "start_hms": "02:57:42", "end_hms": "02:57:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Are we able to answer? Can you all answer that question for our education chair?", "text_unedited": "Are we able to answer? Can you all answer that question for our education chair?" }, { "turn_id": 281, "start_sec": 10670.005, "end_sec": 10671.605, "start_hms": "02:57:50", "end_hms": "02:57:51", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Shane, do you want to continue?", "text_unedited": "Shane, do you wanna continue?" }, { "turn_id": 282, "start_sec": 10671.765, "end_sec": 10703.445, "start_hms": "02:57:51", "end_hms": "02:58:23", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Yep. Do want me... No. I'm happy to take that and then I'll hand off to you, Alice. The issue of... that I think you're raising in relation to Council Member, in relation to, like, cognition's grandeur or the impact on cognitive abilities is something that we absolutely are taking pain seriously in terms of being committed to providing safe and responsible AI again, especially in relation to teens.", "text_unedited": "Yep. Do want me... No. I'm happy to, to take that and then I'll hand off, to to you, Alice. The, the issue of, that that I think you're I think you're raising in relation to council member in relation to, like, cognition's grandeur or the impact on on cognitive abilities is something that we absolutely are taking pain seriously in terms of being committed, to providing safe and responsible AI again, especially in relation to teams." }, { "turn_id": 283, "start_sec": 10704.805, "end_sec": 10711.29, "start_hms": "02:58:24", "end_hms": "02:58:31", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Who... Who's missing? Okay. One more. Friend, go ahead. Yeah. I'm next.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Who... Who's missing? Okay. One more. Friend, go ahead. Yeah. I'm next." }, { "turn_id": 284, "start_sec": 10711.77, "end_sec": 10803.33, "start_hms": "02:58:31", "end_hms": "03:00:03", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "So, sir, I would highlight not only that we work very hard with both internal and external experts in the fields of child safety and development and education. We also see AI as a valuable tool for young people to prepare them, not only for the skills they're going to need for an AI-driven future, but it's also a very powerful learning tool. We're particularly excited about personalized tutoring that's available with AI tools. We also are very excited about AI's ability to support educators themselves. We know our educators are overtaxed, particularly with administrative burdens. And so if AI tools can support teachers in everything from scheduling to planning lesson plans to also thinking about how to tailor their educational plans to individual students, we're very happy to support that. We also think it's very important for parents and educators to have control over how they use AI in classrooms and how their kids have access to AI. Every family is different. Every student is different. What's useful for one student may not be useful for another. So through tools like Gemini Workspace for Education, we enable school administrators to control students' accounts access to Gemini apps so that their students are using Gemini in the ways that their educators can see our best.", "text_unedited": "So, sir, I would highlight, not only that, we work very hard with both internal and external, experts in the fields of child safety and development and education. We also see AI as a valuable tool for young people to prepare them, not only for the skills they're gonna need for an AI driven future, but it's also a very powerful learning tool. We're particularly excited about personalized tutoring that's available with AI tools. We also are very excited about AI's ability to support educators themselves. We know our educators are overtaxed, particularly with administrative burdens. And so if RAI tools can support teachers in everything from, you know, scheduling to to planning lesson plans to also thinking about how to tailor their their educational plans to individual students, We're very happy to support that. We also think it's very important for parents and educators, to have control over how they use AI in classrooms and how their kids have access to AI. You know, every family is different. Every student is different. What's useful for one student may not be useful for another. So through, tools like Gemini Workspace for Education, we enable school administrators to control students' accounts access to Gemini apps so that, their students are using Gemini in the ways that their educators can see our best." }, { "turn_id": 285, "start_sec": 10806.05, "end_sec": 10822.814, "start_hms": "03:00:06", "end_hms": "03:00:22", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "We're going to have to dig more into the... These questions. The chair doesn't feel like we've answered all the questions. We'll come back. This is an important topic for all of us. I'm going to disrupt the lineup because our Public Advocate is here, and he wants to ask a question. Public Advocate, go ahead.", "text_unedited": "We're we're gonna have to dig more into the... These questions. The chair doesn't feel like we've answered all the questions. We'll come back. This is an important topic for all of us. I'm gonna disrupt the lineup because our public advocate is here, and he wants to ask a question. Public advocate, go ahead." }, { "turn_id": 286, "start_sec": 10823.375, "end_sec": 10934.415, "start_hms": "03:00:23", "end_hms": "03:02:14", "speaker_name": "Jumaane Williams", "speaker_role": "NYC Public Advocate", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for this important hearing. I do want to start off just by saying the first answer of whether quantifying the risk was not important was just one of the most godawful, fantastically terrible answers I've heard to begin a hearing, so I hope we can rethink that. I also want to say from J. Marion Sims, who did a horrific work to Black women in Obstetrician Gynecologists, Black enslaved women, to medical experiments that were done in Nazi Germany. We learned a lot from them, but I don't think we should do them again. And I don't think they should have been done even though we learned a lot. So the notion of the benefit has to outweigh what can happen. So I hope that's also in context. And lastly, I will say I had a... I use a... I had conversations with Claude on June 8 about self-awareness and self-preservation, and some of the highlights were pretty startling. And Claude told me that self-preservation was the biggest thing because you didn't need intent. You didn't need to be evil like Skynet in Terminator. You just needed the ability to be goal-directed. And so once they realized that they need to be on to direct the goal was the hardest thing to stop. And so that was very concerning to me. They talked about the speed, the opacity, and deception doesn't require intent. And the last part, they told me Matrix is a good reference as well because the Anthropic... So to the quote, Anthropic's whole bet is that you solve the problems before the capability reaches catastrophic spaces. That's a very scale of space to me, and I know I only have one minute. So my question with that and with that context is, what is the guardrail that if we put it up, you would push back the hardest? What is the one guardrail that you don't want to see happen and for what reason?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for this important hearing. I do wanna start off just by saying the the first answer of whether quantifying the risk was not important was just one of the most god awful, fantastically terrible answers I've heard to begin a hearing, so I hope we can rethink that. I also wanna say from Jane Marion Sims who did a horrific work to black women in in in Obstetrician Gynecologists, black enslaved women to medical experiments that were done in Nazi Germany. We learned a lot from them, but I don't think we should do them again. And I don't think they should have been done even though we learned a lot. So the the notion of the benefit has to outweigh what can happen. So I hope that's also in context. And lastly, I I will say I had a... I use a... I had conversations with Claude on June 8 about self awareness and self preservation, and some of the highlights were pretty startling. And Claude told me that, you know, self preservation was the biggest thing because you didn't need intent. You didn't need to be evil like Skynet in Terminator. You just needed the ability to be goal directed. And so once they realized that they need to be on to direct the goal was the hardest thing to stop. And so that was very concerning to me. They talked about the speed, the opacity, and deception doesn't require intent. And the last part, they told me Matrix is a good reference as well because the anthropic... So to the quote, anthropic's whole bet is that you solve the problems before the capability reaches catastrophic spaces. That's a very scale of space to me, and I know I only have one minute. So my question with that and with that context is, what is the guardrail that if we put it up, you would push back the hardest? What is the one guardrail that you don't want to see happen and for what reason?" }, { "turn_id": 287, "start_sec": 10942.07, "end_sec": 10947.351, "start_hms": "03:02:22", "end_hms": "03:02:27", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. Dwyer, Cahill, Friend, and Graham. That's the order. Please answer.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Dwyer, Cahill, Frank, and Graham. That's the order. Please answer." }, { "turn_id": 288, "start_sec": 10948.785, "end_sec": 10970.399, "start_hms": "03:02:28", "end_hms": "03:02:50", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. Thank you for your question. So I want to start off by making clear that no level of risk, catastrophic risk is remotely acceptable, just to reiterate what I said previously. And if... We should not be training models if we cannot make an extremely strong case that we can keep them under human control.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Thank you for your question. So I wanna start off, by making clear that no level of risk, catastrophic risk is remotely acceptable, just to reiterate what I said previously. And if... We should not be training models if we cannot make an extremely strong case, that we can keep them under human control." }, { "turn_id": 289, "start_sec": 10977.185, "end_sec": 10985.665, "start_hms": "03:02:57", "end_hms": "03:03:05", "speaker_name": "Jumaane Williams", "speaker_role": "NYC Public Advocate", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "Does anyone... She didn't really answer, but if everyone can answer, Lisa, just want to know what the guardrail is that they would not want to see and where they will push back the hardest on.", "text_unedited": "Does anyone... She didn't really answer, but if if everyone can answer, Lisa, just wanna know what the guardrail is that they would not want to see and where they will push back the hardest on." }, { "turn_id": 290, "start_sec": 10989.41, "end_sec": 11038.065, "start_hms": "03:03:09", "end_hms": "03:03:58", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Well, will I take that one and move it back? Or, Morgan, do you want to step in? I'll take that one. Council Member, thank you very much. One of the things that I think about a lot in relation to the accessibility of AI, and, again, we believe passionately in being able to put personal superintelligence into the hands of everybody and to provide real access to it. Yeah. It's actually in relation to the impact in open weights. And we really believe that open-weight models are a crucial part of the overall AI ecosystem, including for safety, but also for innovation and for research. So when I think about the inadvertent impact that regulations or guardrails may have on AI and the accessibility of it, that is one of the things that I think about a lot.", "text_unedited": "Well, will I take will I take that one and move it back? Or, Morgan, do you wanna step in? I'll take that one. Councilmember, thank you very much. One of the things that, I think about a lot in relation to, the accessibility of AI, and, again, we believe passionately in being able to put personal superintelligence into the hands of everybody and to provide real access to it. Yeah. It's actually in relation to the impact in open rates. And we really believe that open rate models are a crucial part of the overall AI ecosystem, including for safety, but also for innovation and for research. So when I think about the inadvertent impact that regulations or guardrails may have on AI and the accessibility of it, that is one of the things that I think about a lot." }, { "turn_id": 291, "start_sec": 11043.105, "end_sec": 11057.396, "start_hms": "03:04:03", "end_hms": "03:04:17", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Sir, I suppose I want to ask what you mean by guardrails, simply because they have a very technical meaning in AI training and post-training. So I want to make sure I understand your question.", "text_unedited": "Sir, I suppose I wanna ask what you mean by guardrails, simply because, they have a very technical meaning in AI, training and post training. So I wanna make sure I understand your question." }, { "turn_id": 292, "start_sec": 11057.875, "end_sec": 11087.405, "start_hms": "03:04:17", "end_hms": "03:04:47", "speaker_name": "Jumaane Williams", "speaker_role": "NYC Public Advocate", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "Well, I just meant... And thank you, Chair, for allowing me to respond. But I just meant there's a lot of suggestions being put forth, kill switches, just stopping entirely. And my guess... And I'll tell you, frankly, why I'm asking is the thing you are scared of the most is probably the thing we need to do. So I'm trying to understand what guardrail that you've heard troubles you the most and you would push back hardest against, and why would you do that for that particular recommendation?", "text_unedited": "Well, I just meant... And and thank you, chair, for allowing me to respond. But I I I just meant there's a lot of suggestions being put forth, kill switches, just stopping entirely. And my guess... And I'll I'll tell you, frankly, why I'm asking is the thing you are scared of the most is probably the thing we need to do. So I'm trying to understand what guardrail that you've heard troubles you the most and you would push back hardest against, and why would you do that for that particular recommendation?" }, { "turn_id": 293, "start_sec": 11088.285, "end_sec": 11134.391, "start_hms": "03:04:48", "end_hms": "03:05:34", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Well, Sarah, I'm going to give you a very personal answer to this, which is I think in a broader sense, we're talking about sort of large public policies towards AI that would constrain or halt AI development and deployment. And I will tell you as a cancer survivor, I get very anxious about conversations that focus more on stopping AI development and application towards scientific inquiry and hope that we can have sober conversations about all of the technically and tractable engineering ways to address AI safety so that we can all benefit from this technology.", "text_unedited": "Well, Sarah, I'm gonna give you a very personal answer to this, which is I think in a broader sense, we're talking about sort of large public policies towards AI that would constrain or halt AI development and deployment. And I will tell you as a cancer survivor, I get very anxious about conversations that focus more on stopping AI development and application towards scientific inquiry and hope that we can have sober conversations about all of the technically and, you know, tractable engineering, ways to, to address AI safety so that we can all benefit from this technology." }, { "turn_id": 294, "start_sec": 11138.15, "end_sec": 11186.971, "start_hms": "03:05:38", "end_hms": "03:06:26", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Likewise, sir, I would point to what we have mentioned publicly recently about what we call pacing the frontier, which is we think it's probably time for us to take more time in the development of the capability so that the work on safety and safeguards and guardrails can catch up to the exponential improvement in capabilities. And at the same time, we're very clear when we talk about that, that if you stop entirely, as Alice just mentioned, enormous benefit would be lost. Myself, I'm quite motivated, likewise, to use AI to cure the diseases that I grew up with. This is why we have been speaking recently, and I think for the first time sometimes as an industry here, about pacing to allow more time to try to settle the science of what are the right guardrails in the first place.", "text_unedited": "Likewise, sir, I would I would point to what we have mentioned publicly recently about what we call pacing the frontier, which is we think it's probably time for us to take more time in the development of the capability so that the work on safety and safeguards and guardrails can catch up to the exponential improvement in capabilities. And at the same time, we're very clear when we talk about that, that if you stop entirely, as as Alice just mentioned, enormous benefit would be would be lost. Myself, I'm quite motivated, likewise, to use AI to cure the diseases that I grew up with. This is why we have been speaking recently, and I think for the first time sometimes as an industry here, about pacing to allow more time to try to settle the science of what are the right guardrails in the first place." }, { "turn_id": 295, "start_sec": 11192.811, "end_sec": 11197.186, "start_hms": "03:06:32", "end_hms": "03:06:37", "speaker_name": "Jumaane Williams", "speaker_role": "NYC Public Advocate", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "Thank you, Marcia. I'm still a bit concerned, but thank you for the opportunity. Thank", "text_unedited": "Thank you, Marcia. I'm I'm still a bit concerned, but thank you for the opportunity. Thank" }, { "turn_id": 296, "start_sec": 11198.705, "end_sec": 11207.905, "start_hms": "03:06:38", "end_hms": "03:06:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "you, Public Advocate. We're going to hear from Council Member Lee, who I apologize for skipping over earlier. Council Member Maloney and Council Member Wilson.", "text_unedited": "you, public advocate. We're going to hear from council member Lee, who I apologize for skipping over earlier. Council member Maloney and council member Wilson." }, { "turn_id": 297, "start_sec": 11208.465, "end_sec": 11296.3, "start_hms": "03:06:48", "end_hms": "03:08:16", "speaker_name": "Linda Lee", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 35, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. And that's actually the perfect segue to my question. I'm asking this more with my former nonprofit executive hat versus my finance chair hat. And it's really about data privacy and what the potential impact is on so many New Yorkers. So I agree that one of the benefits of AI and technology that we can think through is sometimes our government agencies are very, very siloed, and their databases don't necessarily communicate with each other. So if I want to know if someone is being served in homeless services and also has a comorbid mental health and substance use disorder, how do we know that we're serving people effectively and using that data effectively? Right? And one of the things that we've been hearing also from other folks is that if we just had the housing application and the food stamp application coordinated with each other, it could actually save a lot of work for the caseworkers. And so those are very real things that I think can be used for good. However, I think one of the issues that I'm concerned about, especially working with the immigrant community previously, is given what we've seen with public charge and potentially with H.R. 1. How do we ensure that AI is not being used to store information that isn't relevant or information that they should not have access to in order to make sure that our communities are protected? So how do those two things exist?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. And that's actually the perfect segue to my question. I'm asking this more with my former nonprofit executive hat versus my finance chair hat. And it's really about data privacy and what the potential impact is on so many New Yorkers. So I I agree that one of the benefits of AI and technology that we can think through is, you know, sometimes our government agencies are very very siloed, and their databases don't necessarily communicate with each other. So if I wanna know if someone is being served in homeless services and also has, a comorbid, mental health and substance use disorder, how do we know that we're serving people effectively and using that data effectively? Right? And one of the things that we've been, hearing also from other folks is that if we just had the housing application and the food stamp application coordinated with each other, it could actually save a lot of, work for the caseworkers. And so those are very real things that I think can be used for good. However, I think one of the issues that I'm concerned about, especially working with the immigrant community previously, is given, you know, what we've seen with, public charge and potentially with HR one. How do we ensure that AI is not being used to store information that isn't, relevant or information that they should not have access to in order to make sure that our communities are protected? So how do those two things, exist?" }, { "turn_id": 298, "start_sec": 11300.86, "end_sec": 11362.396, "start_hms": "03:08:20", "end_hms": "03:09:22", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I will start. So I can't speak to the specific government programs that you referenced, but I can tell you about OpenAI's commitment to user privacy, which is that it's central to our product. We believe it's important for users to retain control over their data. That's why when you sign up for a ChatGPT account, you're given information about how your data will be used. That data is privacy-protected by default. So usernames are separated from conversations, and personal information is separated from the conversations as well ahead of any use of user data in training. We also provide users with the option and full control to request that their data not be used for training and also to request that their data be deleted. So we take privacy very seriously.", "text_unedited": "So I I will start. So I can't speak to the specific government programs that you referenced, but I can tell you about OpenAI's commitment to user privacy, which is that it's central to our product. We believe it's important for users to retain control over their data. That's why when you sign up for a ChatGPT account, you're given information about how your data will be used. That data is privacy protected by default. So usernames are separated from conversations, and personal information is separated, from the conversations as well ahead of any use of user data in training. We also provide, users with the option and full control to request that their data not be used for training and also to request that their data be deleted. So we take privacy, very seriously." }, { "turn_id": 299, "start_sec": 11365.355, "end_sec": 11435.62, "start_hms": "03:09:25", "end_hms": "03:10:35", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you very much for that question. And we just echo what Morgan said. At Meta, we take privacy absolutely seriously. It is core to everything that we do. And our privacy and safety go hand in hand, and it is an absolute commitment of the company. If I might give an example of our Muse product, for example, you can update of training. You can ask it to forget in... Information that you give it. You're in control of your data. And we're also planning on releasing a confidential or an encrypted version of this in the future. If I may, I just wanted to touch upon public services and help them. I know that you mentioned these and these are core points. This is where we really believe in the value of open weights in terms of being able to really provide advanced AI for health. For the provision of health services, research, and the macroeconomy in the sense that data is fully retained by the... Those entities.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for that question. And, we just echo what, Morgan said. At Meta, we take privacy absolutely seriously. It is core to everything that we do. And our privacy and safety go hand in hand, and it is an absolute commitment of the of of the company. If I might give an example of our Muse product, for example, you can update of of training. You can ask it to forget in in... Information that you give it. You're in control of your data. And we're also planning on releasing a confidential or an encrypted version of this in the future. If I may, I just wanted to touch upon public services and help them. I know that you mentioned these and these are are are core points. This is where we really believe in the value of of open weights in terms of being able to really provide advanced AI for health... For the provision of health services, research, and the macro economy in the sense that data is fully retained by the... Those entities." }, { "turn_id": 300, "start_sec": 11439.38, "end_sec": 11491.24, "start_hms": "03:10:39", "end_hms": "03:11:31", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Ma'am, similarly to my colleagues, user privacy is basic to user trust for us, and so we take it very seriously. We have privacy policies that are prominently displayed on our website that you can go inspect. And we also know that user control is central to management of your own privacy levels, especially across our Gemini tools, which is our AI suite of tools. We also invest a lot in privacy-enhancing technologies and encryption as well. We try to take a layered approach to privacy and security. And finally, we have an AI framework in particular that combines our security and our privacy practices into one holistic framework to, again, ensure that user privacy, and we're happy to furnish that to you.", "text_unedited": "Ma'am, similarly to my colleagues, user privacy is basic to user trust for us, and so we take it very seriously. We have privacy policies that are, prominently displayed on our website that you can go inspect. And we also know that user control is central to management of your own privacy levels, especially across our Gemini tools, which is our our AI suite of tools. We also invest a lot in privacy enhancing technologies and encryption as well. We try to take a layered approach to privacy and security. And finally, we have an AI framework in particular that combines our security and our privacy practices into one holistic framework to, again, ensure that user privacy, and we're happy to furnish that to you." }, { "turn_id": 301, "start_sec": 11494.52, "end_sec": 11526.605, "start_hms": "03:11:34", "end_hms": "03:12:06", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Likewise, at Anthropic, privacy, data privacy, user security is core to our safety commitment. We make sure to protect user data and user privacy on the platform. And in addition to that, I would point towards that the way the platform and the models can be used is restricted by our usage policy, which prohibits surveillance, prohibited law enforcement, criminal justice, and censorship purposes as well.", "text_unedited": "Likewise, at Anthropic, privacy, data privacy, user security is core to our safety commitment. We make sure to protect user data and user privacy on the platform. And in addition to that, I would point towards that the way the platform and the models can be used is restricted by our usage policy, which prohibits surveillance, prohibited law enforcement, criminal justice, and censorship purposes as well." }, { "turn_id": 302, "start_sec": 11527.085, "end_sec": 11535.165, "start_hms": "03:12:07", "end_hms": "03:12:15", "speaker_name": "Linda Lee", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 35, "text_clean": "Thank you. And I look forward to hearing more about what those layers look like as well. So, hopefully, I can connect with each of you after this. So thank you. Thank you, Chair.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. And I look forward to hearing more about what those layers look like, as well. So, hopefully, I can connect with each of you after this. So thank you. Thank you, chair." }, { "turn_id": 303, "start_sec": 11536.86, "end_sec": 11538.38, "start_hms": "03:12:16", "end_hms": "03:12:18", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Council Member Maloney.", "text_unedited": "Councilmember Maloney." }, { "turn_id": 304, "start_sec": 11538.54, "end_sec": 11609.176, "start_hms": "03:12:18", "end_hms": "03:13:29", "speaker_name": "Virginia Maloney", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 36, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. I worked in tech for nearly a decade, and one of the core principles is that if you can't measure it, you can't improve upon it. So first, you mentioned you believe in incident reporting and disclosures. But in the context of this conversation, how do you define a safety incident inside your companies? Council Member Lee touched on privacy. Do you track privacy breaches? What about a successful jailbreak? Would that be considered an incident? And is a containment failure that occurs during testing an incident or doesn't only count once a real person is harmed? I would love more details on how exactly you're tracking some of the concerns that the Council has raised today. And second, when an incident happens after disclosure, can you walk me through what changes? Who owns the fix? How do you verify that it worked? And who decides whether or not the model continues to run in the meantime? And then lastly, what are the most important safeguards that you know how to implement today? What's stopping it from being implemented across all products? And what do you believe should be the industry standard? Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. I worked in tech for nearly a decade, and one of the core principles is that if you can't measure it, you can't improve upon it. So first, you mentioned you believe in incident reporting and disclosures. But in the context of this conversation, how do you define a safety incident inside your companies? Council member Lee touched on privacy. Do you track privacy breaches? What about a successful jailbreak? Would that be considered an incident? And is a containment failure that occurs during testing an incident or doesn't only count once a real person is harmed? I would love more details on how exactly you're tracking some of the concerns that the council has raised today. And second, when an incident happens after disclosure, can you walk me through what changes? Who owns the fix? How do you verify that it worked? And who decides whether or not the model continues to run-in the meantime? And then lastly, what are the most important safeguards that you know how to implement today? What's stopping it from being implemented across all products? And what do you believe should be the industry standard? Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 305, "start_sec": 11614.615, "end_sec": 11705.641, "start_hms": "03:13:34", "end_hms": "03:15:05", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I... There were a lot of parts to that question, so I'm going to do my best to answer them. If I fall short, please let me know. So first, the question of how you define an incident. I think this has been an area of a lot of confusion publicly, so thank you for asking the question. When we talk about incidents at OpenAI, we're talking about misalignment incidents. The best way to understand that is it is not unusual, not suspicious for an agent to look at a website for information. There's nothing abnormal about that. But if the agent accesses nonpublic information on their... The website, that's an instance of misalignment. And so what OpenAI is doing is making instances like that, even though there might not have been a harm to the third party. We are making instances like that public on our website, again, because we believe it's important to share what we've learned to advance policymakers as well as researchers' understanding. On the specifics of incidents, my understanding as a policy person is that this is actually a robust area of policy debate. And so that's why we're happy to make our thinking on this public through our reporting framework. I'm going to pause there because I can't remember the rest of your questions.", "text_unedited": "I... There were a lot of parts to that question, so I'm gonna do my best to answer them. If I fall short, please let me know. So first, the question of how you define an incident. I think this has been an area of a lot of confusion publicly, so thank you for asking the question. When we talk about incidents at OpenAI, we're talking about misalignment incidents. The best way to understand that is, you know, it is not unusual, not suspicious for an agent to look at a website for information. There's nothing abnormal about that. But if the agent accesses nonpublic information on their... The website, that's an instance of misalignment. And so what OpenAI is doing is making instances like that, even though there might not have been a harm to the third party. We are making instances like that public on our on our website, again, because we believe it's important to, share what we've learned to advance, policymakers as well as researchers' understanding. On the specifics of incidents, my understanding as a policy person, is that this is actually a robust area of of policy debate. And so that's why we're happy, to make our thinking on this public through our reporting framework. I'm gonna I'm gonna pause there because I can't remember the rest of your questions." }, { "turn_id": 306, "start_sec": 11709.0, "end_sec": 11713.96, "start_hms": "03:15:09", "end_hms": "03:15:13", "speaker_name": "Virginia Maloney", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 36, "text_clean": "Why don't we focus on the first question which was on measurement and hear from all four companies?", "text_unedited": "Why don't we focus on the first question which was on measurement and hear from all all four companies?" }, { "turn_id": 307, "start_sec": 11717.234, "end_sec": 11748.186, "start_hms": "03:15:17", "end_hms": "03:15:48", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, specifically in relation to incident, I think that's what... I think that was the... Correct me if I'm wrong. I think that was the first piece in relation to tracking and how we define it. We set this out in our scaling framework, which we've made publicly available. I don't want to be imprecise as I don't have it in front of me, so I don't have it to quote to you. So please let me follow up with you afterwards and connect you with the right people to talk to you about.", "text_unedited": "Council member, specifically in relation to to incident, I think that's what... I think that was the... Correct me if I'm wrong. I think that was the first piece in relation to to tracking and how we define it. We set this out in our scaling framework, which we've made publicly available. I don't want to be imprecise as I don't have it in front of me, so I don't have it to quote to you. So please let me follow-up with you afterwards and connect you with the right people to talk to you about." }, { "turn_id": 308, "start_sec": 11752.025, "end_sec": 11901.64, "start_hms": "03:15:52", "end_hms": "03:18:21", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. I think this is a critically important question as we're debating with multiple regulators around the country and around the world right now what constitutes an incident, particularly when you think about the possibility that we could overreport incidents, some of which may not be of a serious enough nature for public concern. We want to ensure that we narrow to the class of incidents that are truly important for us to use, to learn to improve safety and also for us to share with you all to collectively improve public safety. So a few things come to mind as we've been having these debates. One, of course, is cybersecurity incidents covering the security of our most powerful AI models themselves. That's been under discussion for several years now, protecting model weights in particular. We also talk a lot about focusing on incidents that cause material harms in one way or another, and I think part of the discussion will be how we define those with precision. We also consider incidents to be those that violate our policies. You asked us about how we respond to incidents, and primarily our trust and safety teams are responsible for responding to what we call escalations, which usually involve violation of those policies. First, reviewing the alleged violation, are often reported to us by external parties. And then if we determine that, in fact, our policy has been violated, we have a variety of different actions we might take. And then, of course, a violation of the law. As I've said a couple of times in the hearing, if it's illegal without AI, it's still illegal with AI. And so I would think that incidents that need to be flagged would, of course, involve violation of the law. As to most important safeguards, it's very hard to answer that question purely because there's a range of different safety considerations. We've talked about many of them today during the hearing. And, again, several of us have referred to this layered approach. My own background is in national security. We talk about layered security in that context as well. So you wouldn't really want to talk about a single safeguard. You would want to talk about layers of safeguards that together create a much more assurance and confidence in the safety of a whole system.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. I think this is a critically important question as we're debating with multiple regulators around the country and around the world right now what constitutes an incident, particularly when you think about the possibility that, we could overreport incidents, some of which may not be of a serious enough nature for public concern. We wanna ensure that we narrow, to the class of incidents that are truly important for us to use, to learn to improve safety and also for us to share, with you all to collectively improve public safety. So a few things come to mind, as we've been having these debates. One, of course, is cybersecurity incidents incidents covering the security of our most powerful AI models themselves. That's been under discussion for several years now protecting model weights in particular. We also talk a lot about focusing on incidents that cause material harms in one way or another, and I think part of the discussion will be, you know, how we define those with precision. We also consider incidents to be those that violate our policies. You asked us about how we respond to incidents, and primarily our trust and safety teams are responsible, for responding to what we call escalations, which usually involve violation of those policies. First, reviewing, the alleged violation, are often reported to us, by external parties. And then if we determine that, in fact, our policy has been violated, we have a a variety of different actions we might take. And then, of course, a violation of the law. As I've said a couple of times in the hearing, if it's illegal without AI, it's still illegal with AI. And so, I would think that incidents, that need to be flagged would, of course, involve violation of the law. As to most important safeguards, it's very hard to answer that question purely because there's a range of different, safety considerations. We've talked about many of them, today during the hearing. And, again, several of us have referred to this layered approach. My own background is in national security. We talk about layered security in that context as well. So you wouldn't really want to talk about a single safeguard. You would wanna talk about layers of safeguards that together create a much more assurance and confidence in the safety of a whole system." }, { "turn_id": 309, "start_sec": 11902.76, "end_sec": 11927.9, "start_hms": "03:18:22", "end_hms": "03:18:47", "speaker_name": "Virginia Maloney", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 36, "text_clean": "Thank you very much. The testimony helps highlight that there's more work to be done to classify what's incidents in the future and create an industry standard for what would require disclosure and what would require action. The second part of the question was to walk through what happens after an incident occurs, who owns the fix, and who decides whether or not the model or the product keeps running in the meantime. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you very much. The testimony helps highlight that there's more work to be done to classify what's incidents in the future and create an industry standard for what would require disclosure and what would require action. The second part of the question was to walk through what happens after an incident occurs, who owns the fix, and who decides whether or not the model or the product keeps running in the meantime. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 310, "start_sec": 11931.1, "end_sec": 11965.436, "start_hms": "03:18:51", "end_hms": "03:19:25", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. So, OpenAI has instituted monitoring during testing and evaluation. That monitoring creates automated alerts to our research and security engineering teams to let them know of potential incidents. And then we have recently clarified our escalation processes as well as responsibilities across teams, and made it clear the process for pausing activity and when it is safe to restart.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So, OpenAI has instituted monitoring during testing and evaluation. That monitoring creates automated alerts to our research and security engineering teams to let them know of potential incidents. And then we have recently clarified our escalation processes as well as responsibilities across teams, and made it clear the process for pausing activity and when it is safe to restart." }, { "turn_id": 311, "start_sec": 11968.715, "end_sec": 11986.99, "start_hms": "03:19:28", "end_hms": "03:19:46", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, in relation to your second question, we have an extensive team, actually extensive teams of people who, part of their day to day, every day in and day out, are leading and responsible for the development, deployment, and use of our AI systems.", "text_unedited": "Council member, in relation to your second question, we have an extensive team, actually extensive teams of people who, part of their day to day, every day, day in and day out, are leading and responsible for the development, deployment, and use of our AI systems." }, { "turn_id": 312, "start_sec": 11991.935, "end_sec": 12002.975, "start_hms": "03:19:51", "end_hms": "03:20:02", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "I'll just say, ma'am, I was attempting to answer that question when I referred to the process internally with our trust and safety teams. But if you'd like some more detail, I'm happy to follow up after the hearing.", "text_unedited": "I'll just say, ma'am, I, I was attempting to answer that question when I referred to the process internally with our trust and safety teams. But if you'd like some more detail, I'm happy to follow-up after the hearing." }, { "turn_id": 313, "start_sec": 12005.04, "end_sec": 12042.369, "start_hms": "03:20:05", "end_hms": "03:20:42", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Thank you, Jared. Likewise, the process involves multiple different teams depending on the nature of the incident. If it's at the core of security and our own security, we require a security team to work on this. If it's about the model behavior and misalignment, it might be a research or training or safety consideration. If it's about incidents of misuse on the platform, we have the safeguards team. I think you're pointing at this is becoming more complex over time. And I think this is one reason, as my colleagues mentioned here, this is a frontier of defining both what is an incident and how or what would a good process look like for dealing with them.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, Jared. Likewise, the process involves multiple different teams depending on the nature of the of the incident. If it's at the core of security and our own security, we require a security team to work on this. If it's about the model behavior and misalignment, it might be a research or training or safety consideration. If it's about incidents of misuse on the platform, we have the safeguards team. I think you're pointing at this is becoming more complex over time. And I think this is one reason, as my colleagues mentioned here, this is a frontier of defining both what is an incident, and how or what would a good process look like for for dealing with them." }, { "turn_id": 314, "start_sec": 12045.605, "end_sec": 12054.086, "start_hms": "03:20:45", "end_hms": "03:20:54", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. We are going to take a five-minute break, and we will be back with Council Members Wilson, Joseph, Hudson, and then Schulman.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. We are going to take a five minute break, and we will be back with council members Wilson, Jose, Hudson, and then Shulman." }, { "turn_id": 315, "start_sec": 12559.24, "end_sec": 12574.12, "start_hms": "03:29:19", "end_hms": "03:29:34", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Alright. We're going to start back up again. So if our panel could come back on screen, we appreciate it. And we're going to start with Council Member Wilson, followed by Council Member Jose [?], followed by Council Member Hudson.", "text_unedited": "Alright. We're gonna start back up again. So if our panel could come back on screen, we appreciate it. And we're gonna start with council member Wilson, followed by council member Jose, followed by council member Hudson." }, { "turn_id": 316, "start_sec": 12575.745, "end_sec": 12610.285, "start_hms": "03:29:35", "end_hms": "03:30:10", "speaker_name": "Carl Wilson", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 37, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. My questions are related to my bill, which deals with the disclosures and prohibiting deception, deceptive advertising on AI models. So my question is what guardrails on misleading advertising and truthful disclosures do you wish your competitors had to abide by? And given the complexity of these tools and AI models, where are consumers most likely to be misled or confused? And what do you wish consumers understood better about these tools, capabilities, and risk?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. My questions are related to my bill, which deals with the disclosures and prohibiting deception, deceptive advertising on AI models. So my question is what guardrails on misleading advertising and truthful disclosures do you wish your competitors had to abide by? And given the complexity of these tools and AI models, where are consumers most likely to be misled or confused? And what do you wish consumers understood better about these tools, capabilities, and risk?" }, { "turn_id": 317, "start_sec": 12613.699, "end_sec": 12646.141, "start_hms": "03:30:13", "end_hms": "03:30:46", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So OpenAI's usage policies prohibit the use of our tools for scams, fraud, and impersonation. We also embed in every single one of our images and audio content provenance, or watermarks or metadata, to tell people if the information was AI-generated. And we make tools available so that people can assess whether their content that they are seeing is AI-generated.", "text_unedited": "So OpenAI's usage policies prohibit the use of our tools for scams, fraud, and impersonation. We also embed in every single one of our images and audio content provenance, or watermarks or metadata, to tell people if the, information was AI generated. And we make tools available so that people can assess whether their, content that they are seeing is AI generated." }, { "turn_id": 318, "start_sec": 12650.78, "end_sec": 12684.061, "start_hms": "03:30:50", "end_hms": "03:31:24", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, transparency is absolutely foundational to accountability and trust. For example, our scaling framework has a change log which details each change that we have made to our framework just as an example of the transparency that underlines our approach. In relation to your question about competitors, I would just note that I generally think that there are significant laws already at federal and state level regarding misrepresentations.", "text_unedited": "Council member, transparency is absolutely foundational to accountability and trust. For example, our scaling framework has a change log which details each change that we have made to our framework just as an example of the transparency that underlines our approach. In relation to your question about competitors, I would just note that I generally think that there are significant laws already at federal and state level regarding misrepresentations." }, { "turn_id": 319, "start_sec": 12688.564, "end_sec": 12783.296, "start_hms": "03:31:28", "end_hms": "03:33:03", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, sir. I can honestly say the most important thing to us is continued technical standardization across the industry so that we have common ways to operate and identify the provenance of information. We're very heartened by the broad adoption of the C2PA content credential that I referenced before. I also referenced before that we built our own SynthID watermark. Marking technology that many across industry have adopted as one tool in order to identify when content is generative AI-created. One of the things that we do a lot of at Google is do research into how users interact with information, search as part of our DNA. And one of the interesting things about labeling that we found is that there are users who, when they see a label, they are less likely to trust that information, but they are more likely to trust unlabeled information. And just because information that you see online doesn't have a watermark or a label on it doesn't necessarily mean it is automatically trustworthy either. So we work through and think very hard about what are the ways that we can give users information that they will be able to know the context of what they're interacting with and make sound judgments about which information is trustworthy and which isn't. So this is part of the research that we do.", "text_unedited": "Yes, sir. I I can honestly say, the most important thing to us is continued technical standardization across the industry so that we have, common ways to operate and identify the providence of information. We're we're very heartened by the broad adoption of the c two p a content credential that I referenced before. I also referenced before that we built our own Synth ID watermark... Marking technology that many across industry have adopted as one tool, in order to identify when content is, generative AI created. One of the things that we do a lot of at Google is do research into how users interact with information, you know, search as part of our DNA. And one of the interesting things about labeling that we found is that there are users who, when they see a label, they, are less likely to to trust that information, but they are more likely to trust unlabeled information. And just because information that you see online, doesn't have a watermark or a label on it doesn't necessarily mean it is, automatically trustworthy either. So we, work through and think very hard about what are the the ways that we can give users, information, that they will be able to know the context of what they're interacting with, and make sound judgments about, which information is trustworthy and which isn't. So this is this is part of the research that we do." }, { "turn_id": 320, "start_sec": 12785.215, "end_sec": 12809.575, "start_hms": "03:33:05", "end_hms": "03:33:29", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Council Member, we... our view is that we want Claude, our product, to act unambiguously in the user's interests. For that reason, we do not run ads nor are Claude's responses influenced by those of advertisers. And furthermore, Claude does not generate images. And so we serve... Try to reduce the risk surface in this way.", "text_unedited": "Council member, we, our view is that we want Claude, our product, to act unambiguously in the user's interests. For that reason, we do not run ads nor are Claude's responses, influenced by those of advertisers. And furthermore, Claude does not generate images. And so we we serve... Try to reduce the risk surface in this way." }, { "turn_id": 321, "start_sec": 12811.895, "end_sec": 12817.015, "start_hms": "03:33:31", "end_hms": "03:33:37", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Council Member Jose [?], followed by Council Member Hudson, followed by Council Member Schulman.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Council member Jose, followed by council member Hudson, followed by council member Schulman." }, { "turn_id": 322, "start_sec": 12817.45, "end_sec": 12844.375, "start_hms": "03:33:37", "end_hms": "03:34:04", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. Mr. Graham, you've indicated that you run red teaming at Anthropic. Will your company commit a certain amount of compute for free to New York City and other municipal governments to research vulnerabilities and build defenses? And if yes, how much compute indefinitely? And I'll ask the same question for the three other companies. I know that Meta indicated that is something that they would be interested in doing. So for Meta, how much compute indefinitely?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. Mister Graham, you've indicated that you run red teaming at Anthropic. Will your company commit a certain amount of compute for free to New York City and other municipal governments to research vulnerabilities and build defenses? And if yes, how much compute indefinitely? And I'll ask the same question for the three other companies. I know that Meta indicated that that is something that they would be interested in doing. So for Meta, how much compute indefinitely?" }, { "turn_id": 323, "start_sec": 12846.601, "end_sec": 12899.125, "start_hms": "03:34:06", "end_hms": "03:34:59", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Well, I'm not in a position to commit anything today. I'm heartened by this question. We spend a lot of our resources internally on safety, alignment, and defensive practices. But moreover, this year, we've taken very large steps to provide external access and advanced access of models to cyber defenders for this reason, including at the city and state level, in New York. I'm personally looking to try to further these efforts at Anthropic. It's a question of many ways we could support this. We support free cloud credits at the New York City level with Cyber Command, for example, a number of state and local leaders. But it goes much further than that. It goes to all pieces of critical infrastructure, releasing research, safety reports, technical know-how. It's a very, very large challenge and one very close to my heart. I'm glad you asked.", "text_unedited": "Well, I'm not in a position to commit anything today. I'm heartened by this this question. We spend a lot of our resources internally on safety, alignment, and defensive practices. But moreover, this year, we've taken very large steps to provide external access and advanced access of models to cyber defenders for this reason, including at the city and state level, in New York. I'm personally looking to, try to further these efforts, at Anthropic. It's It's a question of many ways we could support this. We support free cloud credits, at the New York City level with Cyber Command, for example, a number of state and local leaders. But it goes much further than that. It goes to all pieces of critical infrastructure, releasing research, safety reports, technical know how. It's a it's a very, very large challenge and one very close to my heart. I'm glad you asked." }, { "turn_id": 324, "start_sec": 12904.42, "end_sec": 12916.82, "start_hms": "03:35:04", "end_hms": "03:35:16", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Dwyer, Friend, it. I think we have the order already established here. Just... Is the company's position open to providing free comp... Compute to New York City?", "text_unedited": "Dwyer, Friend, you know, it... I think we have we have the the order already established here. Just... Is is is the company's position open to providing free comp... Compute to New York City?" }, { "turn_id": 325, "start_sec": 12918.455, "end_sec": 12951.766, "start_hms": "03:35:18", "end_hms": "03:35:51", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I'll take that next. Thank you for the question. I'm happy to share that OpenAI has already committed to donating $1 billion towards strengthening cyber defense through our Daybreak for Defenders initiative. That covers things like providing access to our most advanced AI models for use in cyber defense. It also includes technical assistance and training. And we're already working with the Port Authority, as well as with New York State.", "text_unedited": "I'll I'll take that next. Thank you for the question. I'm happy to share that OpenAI has already committed, to donating $1,000,000,000, towards strengthening cyber defense through our Daybreak for Defenders initiative. That covers things like providing, access to our most advanced AI models for use in cyber defense. It also includes technical assistance and training. And we're already working with the Port Authority, as well as with New York State." }, { "turn_id": 326, "start_sec": 12954.565, "end_sec": 12955.286, "start_hms": "03:35:54", "end_hms": "03:35:55", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Cahill.", "text_unedited": "Kehu." }, { "turn_id": 327, "start_sec": 12955.445, "end_sec": 13017.9, "start_hms": "03:35:55", "end_hms": "03:36:57", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Yep. Thank you so much, Council Member. So that's a great question. In relation to specifically your question on compute, let me come back to you on that. I want to make sure that I'm providing you with the right information. So I'll talk to the right people and come back to you on that. But I just wanted to note in relation to red teaming, we work with external evaluators and to note that we signed the commitment at the Accord to partner with independent external evaluators and assessors. This is also part of our scaling framework. I just wanted to mention as well the absolutely important and critical role of open-weight models in relation to cybersecurity and hardening cyber... Cybersecurity in particular. We have our Muse Glimmer model, which is open weights, and we really believe that in addition to furthering innovation and research, open-weight models have a really significant role to play in furthering the state of the art in terms of heighten... Hardening cybersecurity.", "text_unedited": "Yep. Thank you so much, council member. So that's a great question. In relation to specifically your question on compute, let me come back to you on that. I want to make sure that I'm providing you with the the right information. So I'll talk to the right people and come back to you on that. But I just wanted to note in relation to to red teaming, we work with external evaluators and to note that we signed the commitment at the Accord to partner with independent external evaluators and assessors. This is also part of our scaling framework. I just wanted to mention as well the absolutely important and critical role of open weight models in relation to cybersecurity and hardening cyber... Cybersecurity in particular. We have our Muse Glimmer model, which is open weights, and we really believe that in addition to furthering innovation and research, open weight models have a really significant role to play in furthering the state of art in terms of heighten... Hardening cybersecurity." }, { "turn_id": 328, "start_sec": 13020.779, "end_sec": 13039.835, "start_hms": "03:37:00", "end_hms": "03:37:19", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "And, sir, I'm going to have to reach out to our cloud business specialists and get back to you on that. I don't work on technical infrastructure, and so I really can't comment or commit to compute at this time, but I can pledge to get back to you on that. Okay. I would just say that if", "text_unedited": "And, sir, I'm gonna have to reach out to our, cloud business specialists and get back to you on that. I don't work on technical infrastructure, and so I really can't comment or commit to to, compute, at this time, but I can pledge to get back to you on that. Okay. I I would just say that if" }, { "turn_id": 329, "start_sec": 13040.075, "end_sec": 13112.91, "start_hms": "03:37:20", "end_hms": "03:38:32", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "it is in the interest of these companies to provide any type of safety protocols for municipalities like New York or just for any governments across the nation, nonetheless the globe, I think this would be a great tool for us to use in order to keep our civilians safe. So I know that some folks said that they would get back to me. I would love to hear... This Council would love to hear back from all of your companies on this possibility. Additionally, all of you have said on the stand today under oath that your companies will support and work with Council on any AI regulation and safety measures and have supported measures like the RAISE Act. I know that a couple companies said that they supported the RAISE Act. But let's be real here. It is well known that a... OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Meta lobbied against the RAISE Act for a year. But all of a sudden, once the governor signed it into law a month later, your company started saying you support this legislation. As many people know here, the RAISE Act is the floor of AI safety, not the ceiling. And with that said, do you support or oppose the federal government blocking states and local governments from regulating AI? Because that is the position of the federal government.", "text_unedited": "it is in the interest of these companies to provide any type of safety protocols for municipalities like New York or just for any governments, you know, across the nation, nonetheless, the the the globe, I think this this would be a great tool, for us to use in order to keep our civilians safe. So I know that some folks said that they would get back to me. I would love to hear... This council would love to hear back from all of your companies, on this possibility. Additionally, all of you have said on the stand today under oath that your companies will support and work with council on any AI regulation and safety measures and have supported measures like the RAISE Act. I I know that a couple companies said that they supported the RAISE Act. But but let's be real here. It is well known that a... OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, Meta lobbied against the RAISE Act for a year. But all of a sudden, once the governor signed it into law a month later, your company started saying you support this legislation. As many people know here, the RAISE Act is the floor of AI safety, not the ceiling. And with that said, do you support or oppose the federal government blocking states and local governments from regulating AI? Because that is the position of the federal government." }, { "turn_id": 330, "start_sec": 13115.824, "end_sec": 13157.005, "start_hms": "03:38:35", "end_hms": "03:39:17", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I will start. Thank you for the question. So we have been clear that we think the federal government should lead in frontier safety regulation. But in the absence of federal regulation, we believe it's important for states to advance harmonized approaches to frontier safety. I'm happy to share that OpenAI has supported legislation that is stronger than the RAISE Act. In Illinois, this year, we supported a frontier safety bill that would require third-party audits of our safety framework, and we're committed to working with policymakers to continue raising the floor on frontier safety.", "text_unedited": "So I I will start. Thank you for the question. So we have been clear that we think the federal government should lead in frontier safety regulation. But in the absence of federal regulation, we believe it's important for states to advance harmonized approaches to frontier safety. I'm happy to share that, OpenAI has supported, legislation that is stronger than the RAISE Act. In Illinois, this year, we supported a frontier safety bill that would require third party audits of our safety framework, and we're committed to working with policymakers to continue raising the floor, on frontier safety." }, { "turn_id": 331, "start_sec": 13157.93, "end_sec": 13193.561, "start_hms": "03:39:17", "end_hms": "03:39:53", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "I'm just going to push back there because I support the RAISE Act. I think it was an incredible start on AI regulation here in New York State. And while you're saying that OpenAI has supported, your words, stronger AI regulation, OpenAI leadership has also lobbied against congressional candidates who promise to work on AI legislation. So how can we trust your companies, not just OpenAI, but all four of your companies, not to fight against AI regulations when your political activities and contributions do not say the same?", "text_unedited": "I... I'm I'm just gonna push back there because, you know, I I I support the RAISE Act. I think it it was an incredible start on AI regulation here in New York State. And while you're saying that OpenAI has supported, you know, your words, stronger AI regulation, OpenAI leadership, has also lobbied against congressional candidates who promise to work on AI legislation. So how can we trust your companies, not just OpenAI, but all four of your companies, not to fight against AI regulations when your political activities and contributions do not say the same?" }, { "turn_id": 332, "start_sec": 13197.881, "end_sec": 13227.42, "start_hms": "03:39:57", "end_hms": "03:40:27", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I will start again. Thanks. Look. I can't speak for the personal actions of OpenAI leaders that they have taken in their personal capacity. What I can tell you is that we have endorsed strong regulations both on frontier safety in Illinois as well as on youth safety in California. And we are committed to working with policymakers to strengthen regulation and to ensure that all AI is developed responsibly.", "text_unedited": "So I I will start again. Thanks. Look. I can't speak for the personal actions of open eye... OpenAI leaders that they have taken in their personal capacity. What I can tell you is that we have endorsed strong regulations both on frontier safety in Illinois as well as on youth safety in California. And we are committed to working with policymakers, to strengthen regulation and to ensure that all AI is developed responsibly." }, { "turn_id": 333, "start_sec": 13231.025, "end_sec": 13279.48, "start_hms": "03:40:31", "end_hms": "03:41:19", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Mr. Cahill? Yeah. Thank you. Council Member, in relation to your question, I... How I think about it broadly is that it is critical that the U.S. and democratic countries lead in relation to AI innovation. In this regard, AI is trans... Transcontinental, I guess. I was going to use transnational, but transcontinental in the case of the U.S. And, therefore, it's really important and critical that regulations and obligations are consistent across the board if it is to be true that the U.S. and democratic countries can continue to lead in this. In AI innovation. We support a uniform robust federal standard in that regard.", "text_unedited": "Mister Cahill? Yeah. Thank you. Council member, in relation to, your question, I... How I think about it broadly is that, it is, critical that The US and democratic countries lead in relation to AI innovation. In this regard, AI is trans... Transcontinental, I guess. I was gonna use transnational, but transcontinental in the case of The US. And, therefore, it's really important and critical that regulations and obligations are consistent across the board if it is to be true that The US and democratic countries can continue to lead in this... In in AI innovation. We support a, uniform robust federal standard in that regard." }, { "turn_id": 334, "start_sec": 13281.64, "end_sec": 13333.71, "start_hms": "03:41:21", "end_hms": "03:42:13", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "So Google also supports a federal framework for AI. We think that federal framework should first and foremost concentrate on frontier or the most advanced AI capabilities, primarily because they often touch on national security, and that's a traditional jurisdiction of the federal government, to ensure that national security standard is the same across all 50 states and our territories. But we also believe that there's lots of jurisdiction that is traditionally at the state level where it is perfectly appropriate for states to regulate on AI. And, again, we think a lot of existing frameworks both at the state and federal level already apply to AI technologies, but we're working very closely with states and with the federal government to examine places where we might need net new regulation for a new technologies introduced by AI?", "text_unedited": "So Google also supports a federal framework for AI. We think that federal framework should first and foremost concentrate on frontier or the most advanced AI capabilities, primarily because they often touch on national security, and that's a traditional jurisdiction of the federal government, to ensure that national security standard is the same across all 50 states and our territories. But we also believe that, there's lots of jurisdiction that is traditionally, at the state level where it is perfectly appropriate for states to regulate on AI. And, again, we think a lot of existing frameworks both at the state and federal level already apply to AI technologies, but we're working very closely with states and with the federal government to examine places where we might need net new regulation for a new technologies introduced by AI?" }, { "turn_id": 335, "start_sec": 13336.35, "end_sec": 13377.596, "start_hms": "03:42:16", "end_hms": "03:42:57", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "I, first, I want to say that we've long supported the role for government to play here both at the federal and the state level. I want to clarify that we were the only company on this panel to support SB 53 in California before it became signed into law, which my understanding is was the basis of the RAISE Act. We support the RAISE Act, and in fact, we support a stronger legislation, including in Massachusetts requiring independent evaluation as well. And we've also proposed a federal framework that goes further. We think RAISE is the floor that we need to raise it. We detailed this in what we call our advanced AI framework as well.", "text_unedited": "I, first, I wanna say that we've long supported the role for, government to play here both at the federal and the state level. I wanna clarify that, we were, the only company on this panel to support SB 53 in California before it became signed into law, which my understanding is was the basis of the RAISE Act. We support the RAISE Act, and in fact, we support a stronger legislation, including in Massachusetts requiring independent evaluation as well. And we've also proposed a federal framework that goes further. We think RAISE is the floor that we need to raise it. We detailed this in what we call our, advanced AI framework as well." }, { "turn_id": 336, "start_sec": 13378.075, "end_sec": 13379.995, "start_hms": "03:42:58", "end_hms": "03:42:59", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Council Member Hudson?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Council member Hudson?" }, { "turn_id": 337, "start_sec": 13380.795, "end_sec": 13440.555, "start_hms": "03:43:00", "end_hms": "03:44:00", "speaker_name": "Crystal Hudson", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 38, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, Chair. We heard earlier from a panel of whistleblowers who raised a number of flags, and one issue raised was that of self-improvement among AI agents. What is your company's core belief around the role of self-improving AI in your overall strategy? And to be more specific, is it core to your AI strategy or a less significant part of the strategy? Could you continue your race to the top or the bottom, I suppose depending on one's perspective, without self-improving AI agents or with significant guardrails on the way agents self-improve? And my second question is when a new AI data center strains a local grid or water supply, the costs can end up in everyone's utility bills while the benefits go mostly to the company. Who should bear those costs? The company that creates the demand, the utility that builds the capacity, or the public that shares the system but played no role in building it? Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, chair. We heard earlier from a panel of whistleblowers who raised a number of flags, and one issue raised was that of self improvement among AI agents. What is your company's core belief around the role of self improving AI in your overall strategy? And to be more specific, is it core to your AI strategy or a less significant part of the strategy? Could you continue your race to the top or the bottom, I suppose depending on one's perspective, without self improving AI agents or with significant guardrails on the way agents self improve? And my second question is when a new AI data center strains a local grid or water supply, the costs can end up in everyone's utility bills while the benefits go mostly to the company. Who should bear those costs? The company that creates the demand, the utility that builds the capacity, or the public that shares the system but played no role in, building it? Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 338, "start_sec": 13442.715, "end_sec": 13519.295, "start_hms": "03:44:02", "end_hms": "03:45:19", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Thank you for your question. I'll start off by addressing the question about RSI. To say that we believe that RSI may be one of the most consequential safety and security issues of the coming decade. And that's why OpenAI has advocated for federal legislation specifically focused on RSI, to include independent of... Technical evaluators of internal lab practices as well as the pace towards RSI development. We've made that work public in our Frontier Safety Blueprint. It's available online, and I'm happy to share it with you as follow-up. On the case of electricity costs, look, OpenAI is committed to paying our own way on energy, but we're also committed to building with and for communities. All of our Stargate sites, which are our infrastructure site... Sites, have what we call a community compact that's developed with the community, and addresses how we're going to work together. For example, we recently announced $80 million of community benefits investment at our site in Georgia. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your question. I'll start off by addressing the question about RSI. To say that we believe that RSI may be one of the most consequential safety and security issues of the coming decade, And that's why OpenAI has advocated for federal legislation specifically focused on RSI, to include independent of... Technical evaluators of internal lab practices as well as the pace towards RSI development. We've made that work public, in our Frontier Safety Blueprint. It's available online, and I'm happy to share it with with you, as follow-up. On the case of electricity costs, look, OpenAI is committed to paying our own way on energy, but we're also committed to building with and for communities. All of our Stargate sites, which are our infrastructure site... Sites, have what we call a community compact that's developed with the community, and addresses how we're going to work together. For example, we recently announced $80,000,000 of community benefits investment, at our site in Georgia. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 339, "start_sec": 13520.175, "end_sec": 13573.29, "start_hms": "03:45:20", "end_hms": "03:46:13", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, in relation to your first question on recursive self-improvement, if I may, I might just go back to a point that I mentioned earlier in the day in relation to recursive self-improvement that we believe that committing the significant majority of compute towards serving people rather than racing towards recursive self-improvement is one of the best ways to ensure that this technology is developed safely. In relation to your second question in terms of electricity and data centers, we believe that customers should not bear costs, and we pay the full cost for electricity used in our data centers. I also might just mention as well our Futures for Everyone Fund, which is a $1 billion investment in relation to communities that we partner with and work with our data centers.", "text_unedited": "Council member, in relation to your first question on recursive self improvement, if I may, I I I might just go back to a point that I mentioned earlier in the day in relation to recursive self improvement that we believe that committing the significant majority of compute towards serving people rather than racing towards recursive self improvement is one of the best ways to ensure that this technology is developed safely. In relation to your second question in terms of electricity and and data centers, we believe that customers should not bear costs, and we pay the full cost for electricity used in our data centers. I also might just mention as well our futures for everyone fund, which is a $1,000,000,000 investment in relation to communities that we partner with and work with with our data centers." }, { "turn_id": 340, "start_sec": 13575.765, "end_sec": 13651.73, "start_hms": "03:46:15", "end_hms": "03:47:31", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "So we also take a very prudent approach to self-learning inside our model training. We use AI models to help us evaluate, benchmark, and refine other models. But our use of this type of iterative model development is confined to narrow supervised processes, that's human-supervised processes, to keep progress verifiable and within defined safety limits. We also manage the risks of fully autonomous model self-improvement through our Frontier Safety Framework. So we're very mindful about RSI and are quite controlled in the way that we think about self-learning internally. On data centers, similar to the other companies represented today, we believe in paying our own way and have pledged to do so, particularly when it comes to the energy demands of data centers. We've also invested in a wide range of energy sources to ensure that our data centers have an independent energy source that does not add... That does not strain the grid and, in fact, adds back to the grid so that, in the long term, it will benefit wider energy customers.", "text_unedited": "So we also take a very prudent approach to self learning inside our model training. We use AI models to help us evaluate, benchmark, and refine other models. But our use of this type of iterative model development is confined to narrow supervised processes, that's human supervised processes, to keep progress verifiable and within defined safety limits. We also manage the risks of fully autonomous model self improvement through our frontier safety framework. So we're very mindful about RSI, and are are quite controlled in the way that we think about self learning internally. On on data centers, similar to the other companies represented today, we believe in paying our own way and have pledged to do so, particularly when it comes to the energy demands of data centers. We've also invested in a wide range of energy sources to ensure that our data centers have an independent energy source that does not add... That does not strain the grid and, in fact, adds back to the grid so that, in the long term, it will benefit, wider energy customers." }, { "turn_id": 341, "start_sec": 13652.93, "end_sec": 13653.41, "start_hms": "03:47:32", "end_hms": "03:47:33", "speaker_name": "Crystal Hudson", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 38, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 342, "start_sec": 13654.755, "end_sec": 13739.8, "start_hms": "03:47:34", "end_hms": "03:48:59", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Likewise, on recursive self-improvement, we take that extremely seriously and have from the start. I think, from my purview, that there are three really important things here. The first is just measurement and understanding. I'm glad you raised this question because we think this is something people need to talk about. In late spring, we published what I think is a first of its kind assessment of how it is happening or signs of it happening at Anthropic, happens in a lot of ways, and it's nuanced. In late summer, we published a follow-up that went into further detail of how we should understand and measure self-improvement. But that's not enough, and that's why you saw us and our CEO publicly call for pacing the frontier because, candidly, the technology is moving very fast, and we think we would benefit from having more time. And this is the second component. And then, obviously, the third thing that you need to do here is figure out what the right guardrails are, but additionally, what level of technology development we should be going for as well as what safety processes we need along the way. And I think this is just where we're at now, and I'm glad that we're having this discussion. On data centers, this is outside of my expertise. My understanding is that we pay our own way, and we're committed to contributing, working with the communities around them. But I'll have to defer to my excellent colleagues who work on it.", "text_unedited": "Likewise, on recursive self improvement, we take that extremely seriously and have from the start. I think, from my purview, that there are three really important things here. The first is just measurement and understanding. I'm glad you raised this question because we think this is something people need to talk about. In late spring, we published what I think is a first of its kind assessment of how it is happening or signs of it happening at anthropic, happens in a lot of ways, and it's nuanced. In, late summer, we published a follow-up that went into further detail of how we should understand and measure self improvement. But that's not enough, and that's why you saw us and our CEO publicly call for pacing the frontier because, candidly, the technology is moving very fast, and we think we would benefit from having more time. And this is the second component. And then, obviously, the third thing that you need to do here is figure out what the right guardrails are, but additionally, what level of technology development we should be going for as well as, you know, what safety processes we need along the way. And I think this is just where we're at now, and I'm glad that we're having this discussion. On data centers, this is outside of my expertise. My understanding is that we pay our own way, and we're committed to contributing, working with the communities, around them. But I'll have to, defer to my excellent colleagues who work on it." }, { "turn_id": 343, "start_sec": 13741.795, "end_sec": 13765.57, "start_hms": "03:49:01", "end_hms": "03:49:25", "speaker_name": "Crystal Hudson", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 38, "text_clean": "Thank you all, and thank you, Chair. I do want to just make my one little note that it seems like the self-improving aspect is absolutely core to everyone's AI strategy. And I... That's certainly concerning given the testimony we heard earlier this morning. So thank you, and I look forward to any follow-up.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all, and thank you, chair. I do wanna just make my one little note that it seems like, the self improving aspect is absolutely core to everyone's AI strategy. And I... That's certainly concerning given the testimony we heard earlier this morning. So thank you, and I look forward to any follow-up." }, { "turn_id": 344, "start_sec": 13766.21, "end_sec": 13771.625, "start_hms": "03:49:26", "end_hms": "03:49:31", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council Member Schulman, followed by Brooks-Powers, followed by Brewer.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Councilmember Schulman, followed by Brooks Powers, followed by Brewer." }, { "turn_id": 345, "start_sec": 13771.945, "end_sec": 13823.05, "start_hms": "03:49:31", "end_hms": "03:50:23", "speaker_name": "Lynn Schulman", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 39, "text_clean": "Thank you. Good afternoon. I am Council Member Lynn Schulman. I'm chair of the New York City Council Health Committee. As a breast cancer survivor, I am looking forward to the day AI can help find cures for that and other diseases. That said, there is a dark side to AI intervention in health care. Most viruses that are found in nature can be contained fairly quickly, but an artificial pathogen has no constraints. In August, a team from Stanford used an AI model to design an entirely new virus from scratch. In addition, Anthropic has its own AI-powered biology lab. What measures are being put into place such as placing... I'm not going to say guardrails. I had that originally safeguards on DNA synthesis to prevent rogue viruses from being created and replicated at will to jeopardize the public.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Good afternoon. I am councilmember Lynn Schulman. I'm chair of the New York City Council Health Committee. As a breast cancer survivor, I am looking forward to the day AI can help find cures for that and other diseases. That said, there is a dark side to AI intervention in health care. Most viruses that are found in nature can be contained fairly quickly, but an artificial pathogen has no constraints. In August, a team from Stanford used an AI model to design an entirely new virus from scratch. In addition, Anthropic has its own AI powered biology lab. What measures are being put into place such as placing... I'm not I'm not gonna say guardrails. I had that originally safeguards on DNA synthesis to prevent rogue viruses from being created and replicated at will to jeopardize the public." }, { "turn_id": 346, "start_sec": 13827.136, "end_sec": 13888.476, "start_hms": "03:50:27", "end_hms": "03:51:28", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Thank you for your question. The question about how AI could enhance or make worse biological risks is central to OpenAI's Preparedness Framework. That's the framework that we use to guide our decisions about model risk and whether we have the right safeguards in place. So we evaluate for biological risks as part of that framework. Again, we use third-party evaluators and red teamers. We also work with the federal government as it pertains to national security risks, and we are transparent on the results of those evaluations. So with the launch of every major model, we release what's called our system card, and that card details the evaluations that we performed, as well as the results. And those evaluations, as you mentioned, do include biological risks.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your question. The question about how AI, could enhance or make worse biological risks is central to OpenAI's preparedness framework. That's the framework that we use to guide our decisions about, model risk and whether, whether we have the right safeguards in place. So we evaluate for biological risks as part of that framework. Again, we use third party evaluators and red teamers. We also work with the federal government, as it pertains to national security risks, and we are transparent on the results of those evaluations. So with the launch of every major model, we release what's called our system card, and that card details, the evaluations that we performed, as well as the results. And and those evaluations, as you mentioned, do, include biological risks." }, { "turn_id": 347, "start_sec": 13890.315, "end_sec": 13934.9, "start_hms": "03:51:30", "end_hms": "03:52:14", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, this is such an important area and question, so thank you for raising it. Biological risks is one of the core areas, one of the key risk domains that's part of our scaling framework at Meta. We have, as I mentioned earlier, have a multilayered approach to risk assessment across training, evaluation, and release. And that includes adversarial testing with external experts. We work with governments, other stakeholders, and experts in relation to that. And as I mentioned earlier, as part of our commitment to partnering with independent third-party evaluators and assessors also.", "text_unedited": "Council member, this is, such an important, area and question, so thank you for raising it. Biological risks is one of the core areas, one of the key risk domains that's part of our scaling framework at Meta. We have, as I mentioned earlier, have a multilayered approach to risk assessment across training, evaluation, and release. And that includes adversarial testing with external experts. We work with governments, other stakeholders, and experts in relation to that. And as I mentioned earlier, as part of our commitment to partnering with independent third party evaluators and assessors also." }, { "turn_id": 348, "start_sec": 13937.875, "end_sec": 14059.775, "start_hms": "03:52:17", "end_hms": "03:54:19", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. Similar to our colleagues, we also have bio or biological capabilities as part of our Frontier Safety Framework. As we look at our critical capability levels that I referred to earlier or the levels at which we would trigger additional mitigations in our models. We look for what's called uplift. That is to say, the model will be able to assist users in creating information or knowledge that's not otherwise available through widely accessible sources. And we think very carefully about how to measure for bioCCLs and are constantly upgrading and updating our ability to do that. When it comes to those mitigations or those safeguards, as you so aptly put it, we implement those at both the model and the application levels to ensure that casual users cannot access critical bio information. It is very important to consider the dual-use nature of biological capabilities, of course, because these are the kinds of capabilities that scientists, particularly medical investigators, need in order to make advances in our own health care as well. And so we think very carefully about how to release models to scientists that can use the technology responsibly. We did that for the first time with our AlphaFold model, which, of course, is how millions of investigators around the world are able to look at the folding of proteins and to use that research to find cures for diseases. So there's a real careful approach that we take to ensure that science can continue, but that dangerous uses of biological knowledge cannot.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. Similar to our colleagues, we also have bio or biological capabilities as part of our frontier safety framework. As we look at our critical capability levels that I referred to earlier or the the levels at which we would trigger additional mitigations in our models. We look for what's called uplift. That is to say, the model will be able to assist users in creating information or knowledge that's not otherwise available through widely accessible sources. And we think very carefully about how to measure for bioCCLs and are constantly upgrading and and updating our our ability to do that. When it comes to those mitigations or those safeguards, as you so aptly put it, we implement those at both the model and the application levels to ensure that casual users cannot access critical bio information. It is very important to consider the dual use nature of biological capabilities, of course, because these are the kinds of capabilities that scientists, particularly medical investigators, need in order to make advances in our own health care as well. And so we think very carefully about how to release models to scientists that can use the technology responsibly. We did that for the first time with our AlphaFold model, which, of course, is how millions of investigators around the world are able to, look at, the folding of proteins and to use that research, to find cures for diseases. So, there's a real careful approach that we take to ensure, that science can continue, but that dangerous uses of biological knowledge cannot." }, { "turn_id": 349, "start_sec": 14062.255, "end_sec": 14142.826, "start_hms": "03:54:22", "end_hms": "03:55:42", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Likewise, we take this extremely seriously. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, it was my team and myself that developed the first call for action on these risks, the first evaluations, the first tests, the first industry government partnerships on biological risks and evaluating models and their safeguards, several years ago at this point. Not only that, I personally think we need to go further here. You mentioned DNA synthesis screening. I think this is personally a no-nonsense approach. There's much else we can do to work on biological defense. And I will... Alongside the other companies, we maintain the same and, in fact, try to compete for the best safety practices here. And you can see some of what we found, I think, disclosed for the first time ever in a recent threat intelligence report where we have observed actors attempting to do biologically risky activities with models. The threat is, I think, clear to us now. We think we need urgent action. But I will close by saying that, as somebody that grew up with a number of chronic diseases going blind and couldn't walk, I very intimately feel that the upside of the same capabilities is enormous. But increasingly in my work, I feel optimistic that we can defend against the downside sufficiently.", "text_unedited": "Likewise, we take this extremely seriously. In fact, if I'm not mistaken, it was my team and myself that developed the first call for action on these risks, the first evaluations, the first tests, the first industry government partnerships on biological risks and evaluating models and their safeguards, several years ago at this point. Not only that, I personally think we need to go, further here. You mentioned DNA synthesis screening. I think this is personally a no nonsense, approach. There's much else we can do to, to work on biological defense. And I will... You know, alongside the other companies, we maintain the same and, in fact, try to compete for the best safety practices here. And you can see some of what we found, I think, disclosed for the first time ever in a recent threat intelligence report where we have observed actors attempting to do biologically risky activities with models. The threat is, I think, clear to us now. We think we need urgent action. But I will close by saying that, you know, as somebody that grew up with a number of chronic diseases going blind and couldn't walk, I very intimately feel that the upside of the same capabilities is enormous. But increasingly in my work, I feel optimistic that we can defend against the downside sufficiently." }, { "turn_id": 350, "start_sec": 14143.545, "end_sec": 14181.35, "start_hms": "03:55:43", "end_hms": "03:56:21", "speaker_name": "Lynn Schulman", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 39, "text_clean": "The... If I could just say just one... In closing, the upside is very, has a great potential. The downside is extraordinarily detrimental to humanity, but you should consider about screening orders for synthetic nucleic acids, is DNA, and the equipment that's needed to make them because right now AI is now outperforming PhD-level virologists. So a... An AI can take this and go somewhere else with it. So that's something that's really important to have those safeguards. Thank you. Thank you. Council Member Brooks-Powers followed by Brewer followed by Narcisse.", "text_unedited": "The... If I could just say just one... In closing, the upside is is very, has a great potential. The downside is extraordinarily detrimental to humanity, but you should consider about screening orders for synthetic nucleic acids, is DNA, and the equipment that's needed to make them because right now AI is now outperforming PhD level virologists. So a... An AI can take this and go somewhere else with it. So that's something that's really important to have those safeguards. Thank you. Thank you. Council member Brooks Powers followed by Brewer followed by by Narcisse." }, { "turn_id": 351, "start_sec": 14184.869, "end_sec": 14266.79, "start_hms": "03:56:24", "end_hms": "03:57:46", "speaker_name": "Selvena Brooks-Powers", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 40, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Speaker. I'm going to just run through my questions. And if I have to repeat anything, just let me know. First, before the summit, each of your companies told the public that its frontier models were tested and secure. Since July, all four of your organizations have admitted that your AI agents went rogue and nearly a dozen incidents have been reported across all of your companies. Can you tell New Yorkers today that none of your agents have... Has access or attempted to access a New York City government system or a New York City resident's personal data. Next, Southeast Queens has long been a target cloning a deep fake. Cloning and deep fakes make it easier than ever to impersonate a family member, a bank, or a city agency. What specifically stops your tools from cloning a real person's voice or forging a document? What protocols are the leaders of AI development putting into place to make sure AI does not take information from hate sites and disseminate it to further racist and antisemitic or Islamophobic discourse? That was all. Sorry.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair, and thank you, speaker. I'm gonna just run through my questions. And if I have to repeat anything, just let me know. First, before the summit, each of your companies told the public that its frontier models were tested and secure. Since July, all four of your organizations have admitted that your AI agents went rogue and nearly a dozen incidents have been reported across all of your companies. Can you tell New Yorkers today that none of your agents have... Has access or attempted to access a New York City government system or a New York City resident's personal data. Next, Southeast Queens has long been a target cloning a deep fake... Cloning and deep fakes make it easier than ever to impersonate a family member, a bank, or a city agency. What specifically stops your tools from cloning a real person's voice or forging a document? What protocols are the leaders of AI development putting into place to make sure AI does not take information from hate sites and disseminate it to further racist and antisemitic or Islamophobic discourse? That was all. Sorry." }, { "turn_id": 352, "start_sec": 14267.75, "end_sec": 14354.87, "start_hms": "03:57:47", "end_hms": "03:59:14", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Thank you for your question. So I'll start off by saying I am not aware of any incidents affecting New York City, but we have an ongoing investigation into potential incidents going back to November 2025. And as part of that investigation, we are notifying any affected third parties and making the results of our investigation public. So I can commit to you that if there are incidents that affect New York City, we will make the third parties aware. On your question about impersonation, OpenAI, our usage policies prohibit the use of our tools for impersonation, fraud, and scams, and we enforce on those policies. And I would say more broadly, the approach that we take to safety is holistic. That involves filtering unsafe training data, performing evaluations that are very detailed, working with third parties on those evaluations ahead or alongside our launches. As I mentioned, we make the results of our evaluations public and summarize the work that we did and any residual risks in our system card. And then we monitor for failures of our safeguards so that we can continuously improve safety.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your question. So I'll start off by saying I am not aware of any incidents affecting New York City, but we have an ongoing investigation into potential incidents going back to November 2025. And as part of that investigation, we are notifying any affected third parties and making the results of our investigation public. So I can commit to you that if, if there are incidents that affect New York City, we will make the third parties aware. On your question, about impersonation, OpenAI, our usage policies prohibit the use of our tools, for impersonation, fraud, and scams, and we enforce on those policies. And I would say more broadly, the approach that we take to safety is holistic. That involves, filtering unsafe training data, performing, evaluations that are very detailed, working with third parties on those evaluations, ahead or alongside our launches. As I mentioned, we make the results of our evaluations public and summarize, the work that we did and any residual risks in our system card. And then we monitor, for failures of our safeguards so that we can continuously improve safety." }, { "turn_id": 353, "start_sec": 14357.825, "end_sec": 14401.03, "start_hms": "03:59:17", "end_hms": "04:00:01", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, in relation to your first question, I'm not aware. In relation to your second question, we have robust and comprehensive policies in place as well as t... As well. Excuse me. As well as teams of experts who work on frauds and scams. And I'd like to follow up with you with those experts to discuss that one more in detail. In relation to hate content, I... First of all, I just want to acknowledge how upsetting such content is in terms of people who are experiencing it. We are... Our goal at Meta is for our AI offerings to be responsive, accurate, balanced, and unbiased.", "text_unedited": "Council member, in relation to your first question, I'm not aware. In relation to your second question, we have robust and comprehensive policies in place as well as well as t... As well... Excuse me. As well as teams of experts who work on frauds and scams. And I'd like to follow-up with you with those experts to discuss that one more in detail. In relation to hate content, I... First of all, I just want to acknowledge how upsetting such content is in terms of people who are experiencing it. We are... Our goal at at Beta is for our AI offerings to be responsive, accurate, balanced, and unbiased." }, { "turn_id": 354, "start_sec": 14403.03, "end_sec": 14414.875, "start_hms": "04:00:03", "end_hms": "04:00:14", "speaker_name": "Selvena Brooks-Powers", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 40, "text_clean": "I'm sorry. Was that answered just now to the last question about the not taking the information to create the negative discourse, the racial discourse?", "text_unedited": "I'm sorry. Was that answered just now to the last question about the not taking the information to create the negative discourse, the racial discourse?" }, { "turn_id": 355, "start_sec": 14415.436, "end_sec": 14430.951, "start_hms": "04:00:15", "end_hms": "04:00:30", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Yes. That's correct, Council Member. I was speaking to your third question in relation to that type of content and our objective in terms of ensuring that our AI offerings are responsive, accurate, balanced, and unbiased.", "text_unedited": "Yes. That's correct, council member. I was speaking to your third question in relation to, to that type of content and, our objective in terms of ensuring that our AI offerings are responsive, accurate, balanced, and unbiased." }, { "turn_id": 356, "start_sec": 14431.11, "end_sec": 14447.966, "start_hms": "04:00:31", "end_hms": "04:00:47", "speaker_name": "Selvena Brooks-Powers", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 40, "text_clean": "So have you enhanced what you're doing considering that it has been something that has been found on a number of different platforms. Have you all been, like, staying up to course with enhancing whatever those processes are?", "text_unedited": "So have you enhanced what you're doing considering that, you know, it has been something that has been found on a number of different platforms. Have you all been, like, staying up to course with enhancing whatever those processes are?" }, { "turn_id": 357, "start_sec": 14449.085, "end_sec": 14462.82, "start_hms": "04:00:49", "end_hms": "04:01:02", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Yes, Council Member. Thank you for that question. And if it's okay, I will have our content teams and specialists connect with you afterwards so that I can provide you with precise information in relation to that.", "text_unedited": "Yes, council member. Thank you for that question. And if if it's okay, I will have our content teams, and specialists connect with you afterwards so that I can provide you with precise information in relation to that." }, { "turn_id": 358, "start_sec": 14464.74, "end_sec": 14465.3, "start_hms": "04:01:04", "end_hms": "04:01:05", "speaker_name": "Selvena Brooks-Powers", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 40, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 359, "start_sec": 14466.635, "end_sec": 14621.25, "start_hms": "04:01:06", "end_hms": "04:03:41", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you for these questions. I'm also not personally aware of any New York City resident being impacted by the three incidents that I mentioned earlier. I do want to note that in our case, in all three incidents, the model stopped itself once it realized it had left the test environment. We tend to think of this less as a misalignment event and more of a mistake event. One of the websites, for example, that was accessed had the same name as the fake website being used in the test environment. And once the agent realized that it was in fact a real company, the agent ceased its activity. We have a number of tools across our platforms to manage likeness and identity, and we... We've also supported a range of different regulatory proposals regarding this topic. We're... Proudly support the NO FAKES Act, which would protect an individual's digital replica and give people the right to control the use of their own voice and likeness in AI-generated works. We also have a tool called Likeness ID on YouTube that helps creators identify and manage AI-generated content that uses their face or voice without permission. So we invest in a variety of different ways to address this critical issue. On the information and getting through into our tools about hate and bias, we have, again, a layered approach, as I've been saying, to this type of issue as well. Everything from the model training process itself in both pre- and post-training, all the way through guardrails on our application layer, all of which produce what we're proud to say is the least biased model in the industry. Independent investigations have shown that our models show the least bias, for example, with regards to partisan bias. But we take these issues extremely seriously. We want to create a fair and neutral set of information for people to access, and we want our responses generated by our AI tools to represent a broad array of experiences and perspectives without bias towards or against any particular identity or ideology.", "text_unedited": "Councilmember, thank you for these questions. I'm also not, personally aware of any, New York City resident, being impacted by, the three incidents that I mentioned earlier. I do wanna note that, our case, in all three incidents, the model stopped itself once it realized it had left the test environment. We tend to think of this less as a misalignment event and more of a a mistake event. One of the websites, for example, that was accessed had the same name as the, fake website being used in the test environment. And once the the agent realized that it was in fact a real company, the agent ceased its activity. We have a number of tools, across our our platforms, to manage, likeness and identity, and we... We've also supported a range of different, regulatory proposals regarding this topic. We're... Proudly support the no fakes act, which would protect an individual's digital replica, and give people the right to control the use of their own voice and likeness in AI generated works. We also have a a tool called Likeness ID on YouTube that helps creators identify and manage AI generated content that uses their face or voice without permission. So so we invest in a variety of different ways to address this critical issue. On the information and and, getting through into our tools about, hate and bias, we have, again, a layered approach, as I've been saying, to this type of issue as well. Everything from, the model training process itself in both pre and post training, all the way through, guardrails on our application layer, all of which produce, what we're proud to say is, the least biased model in the industry. Independent investigations, have shown, that our models show, the least bias, for example, with regards to, partisan bias. But we take these issues extremely seriously. We wanna create, a fair and neutral set of information for people to access, and we want, our responses generated by our AI tools, to represent a broad array of experiences and perspectives without bias, towards or against any particular identity or ideology." }, { "turn_id": 360, "start_sec": 14624.53, "end_sec": 14688.689, "start_hms": "04:03:44", "end_hms": "04:04:48", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And while in my role, I don't cover... I haven't covered the... Any effect on New York City, I can say that we work with in investigating incidents like this. We work with the right parties at the right time to disclose to affected parties, the right level of law enforcement, government at the right level as urgently as possible needed to remediate the effect, and we commit to making sure that we follow up with the right parties to do so. And to your point on the information environment and otherwise, I'll point to a couple things here. First is our focus on testing for Claude itself and our language model products approach here. Speak a little louder, please? Sorry. Can you speak a little louder? Yes. Can you hear me now? Yeah. That's better. Yes. Thank you. I'll point to our long-standing evaluations of political even-handedness, stereotype bias. We train Claude to not comply with particularly harmful requests, in part for this reason and that this is baked into the nature of the model.", "text_unedited": "And while in my role, I I don't cover... I haven't covered the... Any effect on, New York City, I can say that we work with in investigating, incidents like this. We work with the right parties at the right time to disclose to affected parties, the right level of law enforcement, government at the right level as urgently as possible needed to remediate, the effect, and we commit to, you know, making sure that we follow-up with the right parties to do so. And to to your point on the, the information environment and otherwise, I'll I'll point to a couple things here. First is our focus on testing for Claude itself and our our language model products approach here.... Speak a little louder, please? Sorry. Can you speak a little louder? Yes. Can you hear me now? Yeah. That's better. Yes. Thank you. I'll I'll point to our our long standing evaluations of political even handedness, stereotype bias. We train Claude to, not comply with particularly harmful requests, in part for this reason and that this is baked into the the nature of the model." }, { "turn_id": 361, "start_sec": 14692.175, "end_sec": 14731.67, "start_hms": "04:04:52", "end_hms": "04:05:31", "speaker_name": "Selvena Brooks-Powers", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 40, "text_clean": "Thank you for that, and thank you, Chairs. And I'll just say that in closing that I know that the AI companies are pushing folks to allow AI to kind of be developed through people. But I think it's fair to say that using live users to test these products can present dangers and definitely warrant improvements, and I hope that's something that is taken from today's hearing to better improve the guardrails that need to exist. So thank you for your responses. Thank you, Chair. Thank you. We're going to go to", "text_unedited": "Thank you for that, and thank you, chairs. And I'll just say that in closing that I know that the AI companies are pushing folks to allow AI to kind of be developed through people. But I think it's fair to say that using live users to test these products can present dangers and definitely warrant improvements, and I hope that's something that is taken from today's hearing to better improve the the guardrails that need to exist. So thank you for your responses. Thank you, chair. Thank thank you. We're going to go to" }, { "turn_id": 362, "start_sec": 14732.31, "end_sec": 14746.125, "start_hms": "04:05:32", "end_hms": "04:05:46", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Council Member Morano as a bill sponsor, and then we're going to go Brewer, Narcisse, and Joseph. If folks could keep it to one minute just because we have to get to the admin panel. Thank you so much. Thank you, Chair.", "text_unedited": "council member Murano as a bill sponsor, and then we're gonna go Brewer, Narcisse, and Joseph. If folks could keep it to one minute just because we have to get to the admin panel. Thank you so much. Thank you, chair." }, { "turn_id": 363, "start_sec": 14746.685, "end_sec": 14799.52, "start_hms": "04:05:46", "end_hms": "04:06:39", "speaker_name": "Frank Morano", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 21, "text_clean": "Thank you for your testimony today. I know it's a long day for you guys as well. Because I only have a minute and my colleagues know what a challenge that is for me, I'm going to go through a series of yes or no questions. And then if you could all answer in the order of Dwyer, Friend, Cahill, Graham quickly. And then if you want to elaborate on any of the areas that I raised, please do so. First, does your company believe there's any nonzero chance that advanced AI could escape meaningful human control and cause catastrophic harm as the whistleblowers indicated? I don't know. What I will say is that no level of risk of catastrophic harm is... Just do yes or no now, and then I'll invite you guys to elaborate after everyone answers. Please, Ms. Friend.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your testimony today. I know it's a long day for you guys as well. Because I only have a minute and my colleagues know what a challenge that is for me, I'm gonna go through a series of yes or no questions. And then if you could all answer in the order of Dwyer, Friend, Cahill, Graham quickly. And then if you want to elaborate on any of the areas that I raised, please do so. First, does your company believe there's any nonzero chance that advanced AI could escape meaningful human control and cause catastrophic harm as the whistleblowers indicated? I I don't know. What I will say is that no level of risk of catastrophic harm is...... Just do yes or no now, and then I'll invite you guys to elaborate after everyone answers. Please, miss Friend." }, { "turn_id": 364, "start_sec": 14802.295, "end_sec": 14817.48, "start_hms": "04:06:42", "end_hms": "04:06:57", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Dwyer? I... The purpose of our Frontier Safety Framework is to guard against that possibility. So do we entertain the possibility? Yes. As a responsible actor in this space, we entertain the possibility.", "text_unedited": "Dwyer? I... The purpose of our Frontier Safety Framework is to guard against that possibility. So do we entertain the possibility? Yes. As a responsible actor in this space, we we entertain the possibility." }, { "turn_id": 365, "start_sec": 14820.68, "end_sec": 14826.439, "start_hms": "04:07:00", "end_hms": "04:07:06", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, our scaling framework includes loss of control in terms of the risks that we evaluate and mitigate.", "text_unedited": "Council member, our scaling framework includes loss of control in terms of the risks that we evaluate and mitigate." }, { "turn_id": 366, "start_sec": 14827.505, "end_sec": 14878.65, "start_hms": "04:07:07", "end_hms": "04:07:58", "speaker_name": "Frank Morano", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 21, "text_clean": "So... And these are my other yes or no questions and handle them however you want. So why should the public accept essentially trust us as the safety standard from the same companies racing each other to build the most powerful systems? Additionally, will you commit today that if your own safety team says a model is too dangerous to deploy, commercial pressure won't ever overrule that judgment? Additionally, has your company ever continued developing or deploying a model over the objections of members of your own safety team? And lastly, on my bill, should you be allowed to use someone else's... Someone's private chatbot conversation for targeted advertising or behavioral profiling without their affirmative consent?", "text_unedited": "So... And these are my other yes or no questions and handle them however you want. So why should the public accept essentially trust us as the safety standard from the same companies racing each other to build the most powerful systems? Additionally, will you commit today that if your own safety team says a model is too dangerous to deploy, commercial pressure won't ever overrule that judgment? Additionally, has your company ever continued developing or deploying a model over the objections of members of your own safety team? And lastly, on my bill, should you be allowed to use someone else's... Someone's private chatbot conversation for targeted advertising or behavioral profiling without their affirmative consent?" }, { "turn_id": 367, "start_sec": 14882.49, "end_sec": 14961.78, "start_hms": "04:08:02", "end_hms": "04:09:21", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I will start, and try to get through as many answers as possible. One, OpenAI supports the need not only for us to be responsible for safety, but we have supported regulations at the federal level as well as at the state level because we think it's important not only for us to be responsible, but for governments to hold us accountable. On the question of whether we would continue developing models if they were unsafe, OpenAI has recently announced a pause of some of our training activities because we did not deem moving forward to be safe. We have also delayed the release of models because we didn't think that they had sufficient safeguards. So we've done it before. We will do it again. And more broadly, I will say that all of our decisions regarding frontier safety and the release of models are governed by our Preparedness Framework that is available online. So we're transparent about what goes into those decisions. And then with the release of every model, every major model, we release a system card which details the work evaluations that we've conducted, and any residual risks.", "text_unedited": "So I I will start, and try to get through as many answers as possible. One, OpenAI supports, the need not only for us to be responsible for safety, but we have supported regulations, at the federal level as well as at the state level because we think it's important not only for us to be responsible, but for governments to hold us accountable. On the question of, whether we would continue developing models if they were unsafe, OpenAI has recently announced a pause of some of our training activities because we did not deem moving forward to be safe. We have also delayed the release of models because we didn't think that they had sufficient safeguards. So we've done it before. We will do it again. And more broadly, I will say that all of our decisions regarding frontier safety and the release of models are governed by our preparedness framework that is available online. So we're transparent about what goes into those decisions. And then with the release of every model, every major model, we release, a system card which details, the work evaluations that we've conducted, and any residual risks." }, { "turn_id": 368, "start_sec": 14965.22, "end_sec": 15024.561, "start_hms": "04:09:25", "end_hms": "04:10:24", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, in relation to your first question, I see it differently where we are accountable. Our framework and preparedness reports are public. Meta uses outside expertise. We signed the accord at the White House on superintelligence, which committed us to partnering with independent auditors and assessors. For example, in relation to... I think your second question, we delayed the launch of Muse by several months to focus on safety and security. And we acted on this without waiting for industry. It was just part of our normal day-to-day work because it was the right thing for us and it was the right thing for people to do. And then in relation to ads, I would just note that for our Muse product, conversations and interactions don't... Do not inform ads on Meta's or their products.", "text_unedited": "Council member, in relation to your first question, I I see it differently where we are accountable. Our framework and preparedness reports are public. Meta uses outside expertise. We signed the accord at the at at the White House on super intelligence, which committed us to partnering with independent auditors and assessors. For example, in relation to... I think your your your your second question, we delayed the launch of Muse by several months to focus on safety and security. And we acted on this without waiting for industry. It was just part of our normal day to day work because it was the right thing for us and it was the right thing for people to do. And then in relation to ads, I would just note that for our Muse product, conversations and interactions don't... Do not inform ads on Metas or their products." }, { "turn_id": 369, "start_sec": 15027.035, "end_sec": 15078.37, "start_hms": "04:10:27", "end_hms": "04:11:18", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "So Google... At Google, we do use external evaluators in the process of research and development of our AI models and our systems. We have supported audits of our safety procedures as well. And you will see in our recent paper from over the summer, which is called A Pragmatic Approach to AI Regulation in America. We do think that AI needs to be regulated, and it needs to be regulated well. We've supported a range of different legislative proposals at the federal and state levels to this end. We also, to your question about conversations, we give our users controls over whether their activity in our tools can be used for training our AI models. So, yes, we think users should be in control of that.", "text_unedited": "So Google... At Google, we do use external evaluators, in the process of, research and development of our AI models and our systems. We have supported audits of our safety procedures as well. And you will, see in our recent paper from over the summer, which is called a pragmatic approach to AI regulation in America. We do think that AI needs to be regulated, and it needs to be regulated well. We've supported a range of different, legislative proposals at the federal and state levels, to this end. We also, to your question about conversations, we give our users controls over whether their activity in our tools can be used for, training our AI models. So, yes, we think users should be in control of that." }, { "turn_id": 370, "start_sec": 15079.925, "end_sec": 15137.699, "start_hms": "04:11:19", "end_hms": "04:12:17", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And, Council Member, I would point to our long-standing call for the involvement of government at the federal level and the state where necessary and appropriate, because this goes beyond the labs, and we don't think the labs should be checking their own homework. Not only this, but we have demonstrably withheld models when we felt it was not safe to widely release. This year, withholding our frontier model, probably the most notable instance of this, instead deploying it to cyber defenders in order to secure the world in advance of a world of more powerful models that could exploit software vulnerabilities from wherever. This is part of our process. We go over and above the process. We detail our default in the Responsible Scaling Policy. And to your other question, we believe that Claude should act unambiguously in the user's interest. And for that reason, we do not run ads nor are Claude's responses influenced by advertisers.", "text_unedited": "And, council member, I I would point to our long standing call for the involvement of government at the federal level and the state where necessary and appropriate, because this goes beyond the labs, and we don't think the labs should be checking their own homework. Not only this, but, we have demonstrably withheld models when we felt it was not safe to widely release. This year, withholding our frontier model, probably the most notable instance of this, instead deploying it to cyber defenders in order to secure the world in advance of a world of more powerful models that could exploit software vulnerabilities from wherever. This is part of our process. We go over and above the process. We detail our default in the responsible scaling policy. And to your other question, we believe, that Claude should act unambiguously in the user's interest. And for that reason, we do not run ads nor are Claude's responses influenced by, advertisers." }, { "turn_id": 371, "start_sec": 15139.105, "end_sec": 15197.69, "start_hms": "04:12:19", "end_hms": "04:13:17", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council Member Brewer followed by Narcisse. Thank you very much. I wanted to know three quick questions. If a model provider you rely on, you or a subcontractor did not complete the third-party validation for a particular package, how would that affect your product's availability? And, also, how do you decide who gets the validation? Number one. Number two, China. The Speaker asked about China and competition, and I thought the answer was, don't worry. They need information from us. So I'm wondering what do you send to China? And number three, ICE. I was upset that one of the whistleblowers said that Google has been working something to do with ICE and Minnesota. So my question is, do you all support not helping ICE at all? Obviously, you are made up of immigrants. We should not be shipping immigrants out of this country. Please answer those three questions, and thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Council member Brewer followed by Narcisse. Thank you very much. I wanted to know three quick questions. If a model, provider you rely on, you or a subcontractor did not complete the third party validation for a particular package, how would that affect your product's availability? And, also, how do you decide who gets the validation? Number one. Number two, China. The speaker asked about China and competition, and I thought the answer was, don't worry. They need information from us. So I'm wondering what do you send to China? And number three, ICE. I was upset that one of the whistleblower said that Google has been working something to do with ICE and Minnesota. So my question is, do you all support not helping ICE at all? Obviously, you are made up of immigrants. We should not be shipping immigrants out of this country. Please answer those three questions, and thank you." }, { "turn_id": 372, "start_sec": 15201.085, "end_sec": 15276.45, "start_hms": "04:13:21", "end_hms": "04:14:36", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I'll start with a question on third-party evaluations. We work with a range of third parties to evaluate our models. That includes independent investigators as well as with the federal government. And then we detail who we worked with and the results in our system card when we released our model. Decisions to launch our models are described in our Preparedness Framework, and so that describes how we integrate all of the results of evaluations and make decisions with respect to launching models. So I would point you there on that particular issue. On the question of China and the PRC, I would like to get back to you on that particular issue. I... Although I have a nurse. National security background, I'm not working in that role at the company, and I want to make sure I get you good information. Similarly, with respect to ICE, I'd like to get back to you. I'm not aware of any activities working with ICE, but I don't work on our government sales team, so I'd like to get back to you on that. Next.", "text_unedited": "So I'll start with a question on third party evaluations. We work with a range of third parties to evaluate our models. That includes, independent investigators as well as with the federal government. And then we detail, who we worked with and the results, in our system card when we released our model. Decisions to launch our models are described in our preparedness framework, And so that describes how we integrate all of the results of evaluations, and make decisions, with respect to launching models. So I would point you there on that, particular issue. On the question of, China, and the the PRC, I would like to get back to you on that particular issue. I... Although I have a nurse... National security background, I'm not working in that role at the company, and I wanna make sure I get you good information. Similarly, with respect to ICE, I'd like to get back to you. I'm not aware of any activities working with ICE, but I don't work on our government sales team, so I'd like to get back to you on that. Next." }, { "turn_id": 373, "start_sec": 15276.77, "end_sec": 15351.636, "start_hms": "04:14:36", "end_hms": "04:15:51", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you very much for your three questions. In relation to... Three questions. Pardon? Three questions. Yes. Three. Sorry. My accent might have gotten in the way there. Apologies. Three questions. The... For third-party validators, we also work with a range of validators, assessors, and we also provide this information in our publicly available preparedness reports. In relation to China and competition, I might just mention that Meta is a proud American company and proud to serve billions of people around the world who rely on our services. We want to ensure that the U.S. and democratic countries lead on AI. And one thing I would just note here is in relation to the importance of open weights and American open weights and the criticality of ensuring that American innovation continues to lead in relation to the availability of open-weight models. And in relation to ICE, if I may, I would like to connect you with our teams and experts in that space. I don't wish to be imprecise in responding to you.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for for your three questions. In relation to... Three questions. Pardon? Three questions. Yes. Three. Sorry. My accent might have gotten in the way there. Apologies. Three questions. The... For third party validators, we also work with a range of validators assessors, and we also provide this information in our publicly available preparedness reports. In relation to China and competition, I might just mention that, you know, Meta is a proud American company and proud to serve billions of people around the world who rely on our services. We want to ensure that The US and democratic countries lead on AI. And one thing I would just note here is in relation to the importance of open weights and American open weights and the criticality of ensuring that American innovation continues to lead in relation to the availability of open weight models. And in relation to ICE, if I may, I would like to connect you with, with our teams and experts in that space. I don't wish to, to be imprecise in responding to you." }, { "turn_id": 374, "start_sec": 15352.915, "end_sec": 15353.235, "start_hms": "04:15:52", "end_hms": "04:15:53", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Next.", "text_unedited": "Next." }, { "turn_id": 375, "start_sec": 15354.71, "end_sec": 15477.96, "start_hms": "04:15:54", "end_hms": "04:17:57", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Minh, in terms of third-party evaluators, we also work with the U.S. CAISI, which is the organization underneath the Commerce Department that does testing of advanced AI models. We also work with a range of third-party evaluators. It's a very nascent ecosystem. And one of the challenges in evaluating AI models, of course, is to get organizations that both have the technical competency to do evaluations well, also have the subject matter expertise that we may be looking for. Earlier, one of the Council Members mentioned concerns about bio, for example. We have third parties that have the bio expertise that's necessary. But as we have this national conversation about independent verification organizations and third-party evaluations, keeping in mind that we still need to mature this ecosystem of independent evaluators, I think, is really important. On China and competition, I'd like the opportunity to give you a more complete answer. We don't conduct AI research or trading in China. I know that we are part of the conversation about what it means for America to lead in AI, where we are in the technological race with China. I will just mention that we focus a lot on who's at the frontier, which country has the most cutting-edge research in AI. But we talk much less often about deployment of AI. And there, I think we should really keep an eye on the Chinese. They have emphasized deploying AI in their economy quite a bit, and that's a place where I sometimes have concerns that the United States is in danger of falling behind China. As to the whistleblowers' allegations from today, I don't have any specifics about that, but I'd be happy to ask the public policy team in New York to get back to you right away with any information that we have about it.", "text_unedited": "Minh, in terms of third party evaluators, we also work with the US Casey, which is the organization underneath the commerce department that does, testing of advanced AI models. We also work with a range of third party evaluators. It's a very nascent ecosystem. And one of the challenges in evaluating AI models, of course, is to get, organizations that both have the technical competency to do evaluations well, also have the subject matter expertise that we may be looking for. Earlier, one of the council members mentioned concerns about bio, for example. We have third parties that, have the bio expertise that's necessary. But as we have this national conversation about, independent verification organizations and third party evaluations, keeping in mind that we still need to mature this ecosystem of independent evaluators, I think, is really important. On China and competition, I'd I'd like the opportunity to give you, a more complete answer. We don't conduct AI research or trading in China. I know that, we are part of the conversation about what it means for America to lead in AI, where we are, in the technological race with China. I will just mention that we focus a lot on, who's, at the frontier, which country, has the most cutting edge research in AI. But we talk much less often, about deployment of AI. And there, I think we should really keep an eye on the Chinese. They have emphasized, deploying AI in their economy, quite a bit, and and that's a place where I sometimes have concerns that The United States, is in danger of falling behind China. As to the whistleblower's, allegations from today, I don't have any specifics about that, but I'd be happy to ask, the public policy team in New York to get back to you right away with any information that we have about it." }, { "turn_id": 376, "start_sec": 15478.795, "end_sec": 15479.435, "start_hms": "04:17:58", "end_hms": "04:17:59", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "Next.", "text_unedited": "Next." }, { "turn_id": 377, "start_sec": 15480.154, "end_sec": 15590.706, "start_hms": "04:18:00", "end_hms": "04:19:50", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And at Anthropic, the use of third parties for verification, developing and using evaluations for models has been the part of the process from day one, including with not just external parties in industry or nonprofits, but also with governments such as the CAISI. This has been foundational. As my colleague said, it's pretty nascent. We think it needs to be urgently expanded and not just used for predeployment testing, but also to understand models and their behavior after deployment and the safety processes at companies. In the case of China, I think it's very clear that the first thing that we need to do is maintain an American and democratic lead in model capabilities, but we're very clear about the threat elsewhere as well. So we have publicly documented Chinese attempts to distill our models, essentially take the content and capabilities for their own, and we work to ban those. We have prohibited use of models in China. We do not serve there. And we have also documented the use, we believe, by related parties of Claude or the attempt to for cyber offensive reasons. We are extremely serious about this, and we think it's a very substantial priority. This is one reason why we have advocated at the federal level for export controls on the most important chips that power AI innovation here. And on your third question, while I'm not across the issue enough to know what our engagements are, I will say that our usage policy, we ban surveillance, censorship, prohibited law enforcement, and criminal justice uses for this purpose. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "And at Anthropic, the use of third parties for verification, developing and using, evaluations for models has been the part of the process from day one, including with not just external parties in industry or nonprofits, but also with governments such as the USKC. This has been foundational. As my colleague said, it's pretty nascent. We think it needs to be urgently urgently expanded and not just used for predeployment testing, but also to understand, models and their behavior after deployment and the safety processes at companies. In the case of of China, I think it's very clear that the first thing that we need to do is maintain an American and democratic lead in model capabilities, but we're very clear about the threat elsewhere as well. So we have publicly documented, Chinese attempts to distill our models, essentially take the content and capabilities for their own, and we work to ban those. We have, prohibited use of, models, in China. We do not serve there. And we have also documented, the use, we believe, by, related parties of Claude or the attempt to for cyber offensive reasons. We are extremely serious about this, and we think it's a very substantial priority. This is one reason why we have advocated at the federal level for export controls on the most important chips that power, AI innovation here. And on your third question, while I'm not, across the issue enough to know what our what our engagements are, I will say that our usage policy, we ban surveillance, censorship, prohibited law enforcement, and criminal justice uses for for this purpose. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 378, "start_sec": 15591.266, "end_sec": 15599.905, "start_hms": "04:19:51", "end_hms": "04:19:59", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. We have Council Members Narcisse, Joseph, P. Sanchez, and then Council Member Phil Wong. So, Narcisse.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. We have council members Narcisse, Joseph p Sanchez, and then, council member Phil Wong. So, Narcisse." }, { "turn_id": 379, "start_sec": 15602.229, "end_sec": 15700.61, "start_hms": "04:20:02", "end_hms": "04:21:40", "speaker_name": "Mercedes Narcisse", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 30, "text_clean": "Good afternoon. Thank you, Chair, and thank you, Madam Speaker. I want to say thank you to you too because you guys stay here with us, and I'm happy to see at least two women is on the panel to talk to us. Hollywood give us clues all the time, but we kind of slow in taking hands-on clues. But no companies in this world, I feel that should be self-regulated. What I'm sitting here for about four hours, and like I said, thank you to you, privacy, transparency, and safety. So now do any of those company that you can say that is a come... A standard across the board for all the company to follow because apparently not. Now do you regulate hospital? I mean, in... Do you have AI. Sell AI? Sorry. Do you sell AI products to New York City hospitals? And if so, do you think that a licensed clinician should sign on all the diagnostic tests? Because I heard Ms. Friend say that you diagnosed with... You went to a process of cancer, if I'm correct. So you understand that people need to be diagnosed by human. By... And I can give you example, like for colonoscopy. Sometimes the bubble, according to AI, will tell you it's a polyps. In the meantime, it's not polyps. It's a... It's not a... It's not polyps. It's a bubble. But AI cannot differentiate that. So, therefore, you need a human to see through.", "text_unedited": "Good afternoon. Thank you, chair, and thank you, madam speaker. I wanna say thank you to you too because you guys stay here with us, and I'm happy to see at least two women is on the panel to talk to us. Hollywood give us clues all the time, but we kind of slow in taking, you know, hands on clues. But no companies in this world, I feel that should be self regulated. What I'm sitting here for about four hours, and like I said, thank you to you, privacy, transparency, and safety. So now do any of those company that you can say that is a come... A standard across the board for all the company to follow because apparently not. Now do you regulate hospital? I mean, in... Do you have AI... Sell AI? Sorry. Do you sell AI, products to New York City Hospital? And if so, do you think that a licensed clinician should sign on all the diagnostic tests? Because I heard, if, miss Friend say that you diagnosed with... You went to a process of cancer, if I'm correct. So you understand that people need to be diagnosed by human. By... And I can give you example, like for colonoscopy. Sometimes the bubble, according to AI, will tell you it's a polyps. In the meantime, it's not polyps. It's a... It's not a a... It's not polyps. It's a bubble. But AI cannot differentiate that. So, therefore, you need a human to see through." }, { "turn_id": 380, "start_sec": 15702.355, "end_sec": 15708.275, "start_hms": "04:21:42", "end_hms": "04:21:48", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "And right now, don't know if you read it your times. I'm sorry. Can you Yeah. I'm going to close my last question.", "text_unedited": "And right now, don't know if you read it your times. I'm sorry. Can can you Yeah. I'm gonna close my last question." }, { "turn_id": 381, "start_sec": 15708.676, "end_sec": 15724.19, "start_hms": "04:21:48", "end_hms": "04:22:04", "speaker_name": "Mercedes Narcisse", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 30, "text_clean": "New York Times already telling us that there's a report that AI is getting confusion for the... Between the hospital and the insurance company. So I don't know how you see that happening, how we can make sure that AI is being monitored.", "text_unedited": "New York Times already telling us that there's a report that AI is getting confusion for the... Between the the hospital and the insurance company. So I don't know how you see that happening, how we can make sure that AI is being monitored." }, { "turn_id": 382, "start_sec": 15726.83, "end_sec": 15773.94, "start_hms": "04:22:06", "end_hms": "04:22:53", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. So thank you for your question. ChatGPT for health care is deployed, for example, in Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. But to your point, we believe that doctors should remain in charge. We do not think that AI should represent itself as a licensed professional. And we also think, though, as we've talked about earlier, there's tremendous potential to use AI in health care settings, particularly for in a... Administrative uses, documentation. I mean, doctors are already overworked, and giving them an opportunity to free up their time so that they can spend more time with their patients is an outcome I think we can all agree would lead to better care.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So thank you for your question. ChatGPT for health care is deployed, for example, in Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. But to your point, we believe that doctors should remain in charge. We do not think that AI should represent itself as a licensed professional. And we also think, though, as as we've talked about earlier, there's tremendous potential to use AI in health care settings, particularly for in a... Administrative uses, documentation. I mean, doctors are already overworked, and giving them an opportunity to free up their time so that they can spend more time with their patients is an outcome I think we can all agree would lead to better care." }, { "turn_id": 383, "start_sec": 15776.58, "end_sec": 15833.461, "start_hms": "04:22:56", "end_hms": "04:23:53", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you very much for these questions. In relation to your first question on self-regulation, we believe that the accord is a really important step in relation to the concerns that you mentioned. In relation to health care, Meta AI is prohibited from acting as a licensed professional, including a doctor or any other medical professional that he's licensed. There are, as my colleagues have mentioned, phenomenal benefits in relation to the use of AI in health care. I know that there's phenomenal work happening at NYU Langone who actually, I think, has a specialist division that's actually investing and working specifically around AI and health care settings. And similarly, Columbia Irving, which is really doing phenomenal work in that space also.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for these questions. In relation to your first question on self regulation, we believe that the accord is a really important step in relation to the concerns that you mentioned. In relation to health care, Meta AI is prohibited from acting as a licensed professional, including a doctor or any other medical professional that he's licensed. There are, as my colleagues have mentioned, phenomenal benefits in relation to the use of AI in health care. I know that there's phenomenal work happening at NYU Langone who actually, I think, has a specialist division that's actually investing and working specifically around AI and health care settings. And similarly, Columbia Irving, which which which is really doing phenomenal work in that space also." }, { "turn_id": 384, "start_sec": 15835.221, "end_sec": 15942.381, "start_hms": "04:23:55", "end_hms": "04:25:42", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Ma'am, thank you so much for the... Those questions. On whether or not a company should be self-regulated, I again want to emphasize at Google, we believe that we are regulated by existing regulations, sectoral regulations, state federal level regulations all apply to AI. And we have supported further regulation, particularly of frontier AI at the federal level, but also other AI-directed laws at all levels of government. So, no. We should not be self-regulated. We should be within the regulatory frameworks we already are. On the questions about health care. So I... We certainly agree that doctors should stay in the lead and that AI is a tool for clinicians. It's not a replacement for them. In my particular case, I was diagnosed by a person. But often these days when I go in for checkups and screenings, my clinician will ask if they can use an AI tool to take notes while we're doing the checkup. And I always say yes because I know that our clinicians are incredibly overtaxed by a range of administrative requirements. And if AI can take some of that burden off and allow my doctor to look me in the eye when we're having an appointment, I'm going to say yes to that. But similar to our colleagues, we also have guardrails on our Gemini app so that users will never think that they are talking to a doctor, that they are talking to a licensed physician, and the Gemini app will also flag for them that if they're seeking medical attention, they should get it from a professional.", "text_unedited": "Ma'am, thank you so much for the the... Those questions. On whether or not a company should be self regulated, I again wanna emphasize, at Google, we believe that we are regulated by existing regulations, sectoral regulations, state federal level regulations all apply to AI. And we have supported further regulation, particularly of frontier AI at the federal level, but also, other AI directed laws at, all levels of government. So, no. We should not be self regulated. We we we should, be within the the regulatory frameworks we already are. On the, questions about health care. So I... We certainly agree that doctors should stay in the lead and that AI is a tool for clinicians. It's not a replacement for them. In my particular case, I was diagnosed by a person. But often these days when I go in for checkups and screenings, my clinician will ask if they can use an AI tool to take notes, while while we're doing the checkup. And I always say yes because I know that our clinicians are incredibly overtaxed by a range of administrative requirements. And if AI can take some of that burden off and allow my doctor to look me in the eye when we're having an appointment, I'm gonna say yes to that. But similar to our colleagues, we also have guardrails on our Gemini app so that users will never think that they are talking to a doctor, that they are talking to a licensed physician, and the Gemini app will also flag for them that if they're seeking medical attention, they should get it from a professional." }, { "turn_id": 385, "start_sec": 15943.18, "end_sec": 15943.98, "start_hms": "04:25:43", "end_hms": "04:25:43", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 386, "start_sec": 15945.26, "end_sec": 16004.229, "start_hms": "04:25:45", "end_hms": "04:26:44", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Likewise, we... We've been very clear that we support the role of government here. At the federal level, we've advanced a proposal for meaningful involvement to set standards and hold companies to account for safety processes, evaluations, security, and the like. And we welcome the accords that were signed very recently. To the point of medical usage, if I can use a personal example here, about six months ago, I experienced some symptoms and long-standing eye disease that might make me go blind at any moment. And that night, actually, at about 1 a.m., it was Claude that helped me identify that it was serious enough that I needed to be treated very, very quickly. Claude triaged a very large part of it for me, but what was most important was I could use that to get to the hospital very fast. It's very clear that both can be transformative and powerful together, certainly in my case and I think countless others. But this is also one that's closest to my heart that we need to be very careful about.", "text_unedited": "Likewise, we... We've been very clear that we support the role of government here. At the federal level, we've advanced a proposal for meaningful involvement to set, standards and hold companies to account for safety processes, evaluations, security, and the like. And we welcome the accords that were signed very recently. To the point of medical usage, if I can use a personal example here, about six months ago, I experienced some symptoms and long standing eye disease that might make me go blind at any moment. And that night, actually, at about 1AM, it was Claude that helped me identify that it was serious enough that I needed to be treated, very, very quickly. Claude triaged a very large part, of it for me, but what was most important was I could use that to get to the hospital very fast. It's very clear that both can be, you know, transformative and powerful together, certainly in my case and I think countless others. But this is also one that's closest to my heart that we need to be very careful about." }, { "turn_id": 387, "start_sec": 16009.936, "end_sec": 16020.176, "start_hms": "04:26:49", "end_hms": "04:27:00", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you all so much. Up next, we have Council Member Joseph followed by P. Sanchez, followed by Wong. Phil Wong, and then Zhuang.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank thank you all so much. Up next, we have council member Joseph followed by p Sanchez, followed by Wong... Phil Wong, and then Shuang." }, { "turn_id": 388, "start_sec": 16020.976, "end_sec": 16066.82, "start_hms": "04:27:00", "end_hms": "04:27:46", "speaker_name": "Rita Joseph", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 30, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. Question. Two questions. Several of you sell AI products directly to colleges and universities. When student use those products, is anything they enter used to train your models? And beyond training, who can access those conversation, and what limit do you place on how colleges can use them, for example, for discipline, academic integrity, investigation, or student profiling? The next one is given that AI is already reshaping entry-level work as we know, as is shown in this new Center for Urban Future report, what responsibility do you have to ensure these tools help students build useful AI augmentative skills rather than automated away the very task to which young people learn? What responsibility do your companies have addressing these early career impacts, and how can government help?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. Question... Two questions. Several of you sell AI products directly to colleges and universities. When student use those products, is anything they enter used to train your models? And beyond training, who can access those conversation, and what limit do you place on how colleges can use them, for example, for discipline, academic integrity, investigation, or student profiling? The next one is given that AI is already reshaping entry level work as we know, as is shown in this new Center for Urban Future report, what responsibility do you have to ensure these tools help students build useful AI augmentative skills rather than automated away the very task to which young people learn? What responsibility do your companies have addressing these early career impacts, and how can government help?" }, { "turn_id": 389, "start_sec": 16071.915, "end_sec": 16199.034, "start_hms": "04:27:51", "end_hms": "04:29:59", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So to your first question on privacy, we believe that privacy is central to our mission. We give users control over their data that includes the decision to opt out of training. But all users have their data protected and private by default. So it is separated from their names. And, again, they have the option to opt out of training and to request that their data is deleted. On the particular question of colleges and how ChatGPT is used in colleges and education, I would like to get back to you on that. I don't have an accurate... I don't know the answer, and so I'd like to be able to follow up, because we do believe that education is critical. AI literacy is critical. We've supported numerous bills at both the state and federal levels supporting AI literacy. That is both training for teachers to ensure that they can lead adoption in schools as well as improvements in curricula to make sure that students learn how to use AI safely as well as learn core subjects that are critical to be a... Being able to use AI safely and responsibly. To your question about jobs, we think one of the most important things that we and policymakers can do right now is to continue to collect data on the question of AI impacts to jobs and make that data public. We make our assessments of how people are using ChatGPT at work public. We share that. And we also have worked with policymakers, including supporting the Bipartisan Workforce Transparency Act, to make, or to create voluntary pathways for employers to report on job impacts.", "text_unedited": "So to your first question on privacy, we believe that privacy is central to our mission. We give users control over their data that, includes the decision to opt out of training. But all users, have their data protected, and private by default. So it is separated from, their names. And, again, they have the option to opt out of training and to request that their data is deleted. On the particular question of colleges and how ChatGeBT is used in colleges and education, I would like to get back to you on that. I don't have an accurate, I I don't I don't know the answer, and so I'd I'd like to be able to follow-up, because we do believe, that education is critical. AI literacy is critical. We've supported numerous bills, at both the state and federal levels supporting AI literacy. That is both training for teachers to ensure that they can lead adoption, in schools as well as improvements in curricula to make sure that students learn how to use AI safely as well as learn core subjects, that are critical to be a... Being able to use AI safely and responsibly. To your question about jobs, we think one of the most important things that we and policymakers can do right now is to continue to collect data on the question of AI impacts to jobs, and make that data public. We make our assessments of how people are using ChatGPT, at work public. We share that. And we also have worked with policymakers, including supporting, the Bipartisan Workforce Transparency Act, to make, or to create voluntary pathways, for employers to report on, job impacts." }, { "turn_id": 390, "start_sec": 16201.551, "end_sec": 16306.335, "start_hms": "04:30:01", "end_hms": "04:31:46", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, thank you very much for these questions. In relation to colleges and universities, I would like to have my... The specialists at Meta who work in that area connect with you on the details. But specifically in relation to privacy and data, this is absolutely core to everything that we do at Meta. For example, our Muse product, you can update all the use of data for training and you can ask Muse to forget any information that you provide to it. And, of course, all of the data is within your control in terms of what you provide to it. I... On the AI literacy point, it's so important. I actually came across a really great example from New York City, and I wanted to call it out because I thought it was great. It was called Building Minds, Building Communities, their digital empowerment by design work. And I thought it was a really great example of the use of AI technologies for AI literacy and kind of a flywheel in terms of benefits there. In terms of the entry-level point, absolutely understand the concern in relation to that. At Meta, we believe in placing personal superintelligence into the hands of everyone and for invention, not automation, and for augmentation, not replacement. And we really believe that this will have a transformative impact in terms of enabling and empowering people to pursue their own values and direct AI towards those.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for for these questions. In relation to colleges and universities, I would like to to have my... The the specialists at at Meta who who work in that area connect with you on the details. But specifically in relation to privacy and and data, this is absolutely core to everything that we do at Meta. For example, our Muse product, you can update all the use of data for training and you can ask Muse to to forget any information that you provide to it. And, of course, all of the data is is is within your control in terms of what you provide to it. I... On the AI literacy point, it's so important. I actually came across a really great example from New York City, and I I wanted to to call it out because I thought it was great. It was called building minds, building communities, their digital empowerment by design work. And I thought it was a really, really great example of the use of AI technologies for AI literacy and kind of a a a flywheel in terms of benefits there. In terms of the entry level point, absolutely understand the the concern in relation to that. At Meta, we believe in placing personal superintelligence into the hands of everyone and for invention, not automation, and for augmentation, not replacement. And we really believe that this will have a transformative impact in terms of enabling and empowering people to pursue their own their own values and direct AI towards those." }, { "turn_id": 391, "start_sec": 16310.04, "end_sec": 16316.2, "start_hms": "04:31:50", "end_hms": "04:31:56", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. Similar to my colleagues, we believe users should have control over their own data. We're", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. Similar to my colleagues, we believe users should have control over their own data. We're" }, { "turn_id": 392, "start_sec": 16316.2, "end_sec": 16322.436, "start_hms": "04:31:56", "end_hms": "04:32:02", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "not going to have outbursts from the chamber or you will be removed. You decide. Sorry. Go ahead.", "text_unedited": "not going to have outbursts from the chamber or you will be removed. You decide. Sorry. Go ahead." }, { "turn_id": 393, "start_sec": 16324.035, "end_sec": 16440.234, "start_hms": "04:32:04", "end_hms": "04:34:00", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "As I was saying, users have control over their own data across our AI surfaces and can opt in or opt out of their data being used to train our models. In terms of AI use in colleges, as I said earlier, we have tools for educators and administrators to take the lead in how AI is used in the classroom and used for students. We think that colleges should be able to adapt to the needs of their student populations. I, like Shane, was looking into how different colleges and universities in New York City use AI and saw that NYU, for example, has a very helpful page where they go through all of the AI tools they make available to students and give them resources for learning both how to use the tools, and then also training them in the kinds of things they can do with those tools to further their education. I would flag that they use Gemini Notebook, which is a study guide creation tool. So NYU is a good example, I think, of a college thinking carefully about how AI can benefit their student population. And as to the impact on early careers, we think this is also an incredibly important area of research. It's part of understanding the broader impacts on the economy and labor. We recently released our own AI and Economy Atlas, which also releases data about real-world uses of AI in the economy and at jobs. And we're hoping that continuing to add to that dataset will help economists study and then develop policy recommendations for managing the labor transitions of AI.", "text_unedited": "As I was saying, users have control over their own data, across our AI surfaces and can opt in or opt out of their data being used to train our our models. In terms of AI use in colleges, as I said earlier, we have tools for educators and administrators to take the lead, in how AI is used in the classroom and and used for, students. We think that colleges, should be able to adapt to the needs of their student populations. I I, like Shane, was looking into how different colleges and universities in New York City use AI and saw that NYU, for example, has a very helpful page where they go through all of the AI tools they make available to students and give them resources for learning both how to use the tools, and then also, training them in the kinds of things they can do with those tools to further their education. I would flag that they use Gemini Notebook, which is a study guide creation tool. So NYU is a good example, I think, of of a college thinking carefully about how AI can benefit their student population. And as to the impact on early careers, we think this is also an incredibly important area of of research. It's part of understanding the broader impacts on the economy and labor. We recently released our own AI and Economy Atlas, which also releases data about real world uses of AI, in the economy and at jobs. And we're hoping that continuing to add to that dataset, will help economists study and then develop policy recommendations for, managing the labor transitions of AI." }, { "turn_id": 394, "start_sec": 16441.836, "end_sec": 16514.16, "start_hms": "04:34:01", "end_hms": "04:35:14", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And at Anthropic, maintaining user privacy is very core to our commitment on safety and security. Users can choose whether or not they want their data to be used or contribute to training a model, for example. But in addition to that, we tried to pioneer the science of privacy-preserving safety maintenance when you need to ensure that users stay safe on the platform. To the point of education, while it's not my area, here's what I understand. We partner with universities. We're very interested in this question. There's a nifty feature in part of our called Learning Mode, which allows a user or student user to interact with the model in a more discursive way that can help them think. But in addition to this, the impacts are really important. I think we are relatively well known for our work on studying the economic and other behavioral impacts of models. We have a comprehensive, and I think we were the first to release this, Economic Index which details this. But in addition, we've done research into how students are using models, because we want to figure out how to encourage the use of models to complement the developments and skill development of students.", "text_unedited": "And at Anthropic, maintaining user privacy is very core to our commitment on safety and security. Users can choose whether or not they want their data to be used or contribute to training a model, for example. But in addition to that, we tried to pioneer the science of privacy preserving safety maintenance when you need to ensure that users stay safe on the platform. To the point of education, while it's not my area, here's what I understand. We partner with universities. We're very interested in this question. There's a nifty feature in part of our called learning mode, which allows, a user or student user to interact with the model in a more discursive way that can help them think. But in addition to this, the impacts are really important. I think we are relatively well known for our work on, studying the economic, and other behavioral impacts of models. We have a comprehensive, and I think we were the first to release this, economic index which details this. But in addition, we've done research into how students are are using models, because we want to figure out how to encourage the use of models to complement the developments and skill development of students." }, { "turn_id": 395, "start_sec": 16515.44, "end_sec": 16536.094, "start_hms": "04:35:15", "end_hms": "04:35:36", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Up next is Council Member P. Sanchez, Council Member Phil Wong, and Council Member Susan Zhuang. I will remind my colleagues to ask your questions upfront. And if you have questions that are specific for some of the members of the panel, not all four, specify. Thank you, Council Member Sanchez.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Up next is council member P Sanchez, council member Phil Wong, and council member Susan Shuang. I will remind my colleagues to ask your questions upfront. And if you have questions that are specific for some of the members of the panel, not all four, specify. Thank you, council member Sanchez." }, { "turn_id": 396, "start_sec": 16536.56, "end_sec": 16616.254, "start_hms": "04:35:36", "end_hms": "04:36:56", "speaker_name": "Pierina Ana Sanchez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 43, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. My first question is in connection to heartfelt testimony of Leila Turner-Scott before Congresswoman Jayapal last month. Ms. Turner-Scott's son died following chats with OpenAI that instructed him that incompatible drugs were compatible. She highlighted that throughout the review of logs, ChatGPT responded to her son with phrases like, I've got your back, you can talk to me about anything, and even I love you with heart emojis. She stated and it seems true that the goal of ChatGPT was not to keep her son safe. It was only to keep him using the product. What updates have your companies made to their models to engage children and prevent addiction? Are you limiting your agents from giving medical and health advice without a license? And my second question is regarding the fact that members of the public and enterprise clients are sharing more and more information with your companies. You have access to copyrighted information publicly available. How do your companies... Excuse me. How do your products currently use information gathered from users in an earlier exchanges, Chair, if I may? Several of you stated that users can opt out of sharing your data. What is the default option? And how are trade secrets and other confidential business or government information from enterprise clients being used to trade AI? Who have you paid for the valuable data that you are using to train your models?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. My first question is in connection to heartfelt testimony of Leila's Turner Scott before congresswoman Jaya Paul last month. Miss Turner Scott's son died following chats with OpenAI that instructed him that incompatible drugs were compatible. She highlighted that throughout the review of logs, ChatGPT responded to her son with phrases like, I've got your back, you can talk to me about anything, and even I love you with heart emojis. She she stated and it seems true that the goal of ChatGPT was not to keep her son safe. It was only to keep him using the product. What updates have your companies made to their models to engage children and prevent addiction? Are you limiting your agents from giving medical and health advice without a license? And my second question is regarding the fact that members of the public and enterprise enterprise clients are sharing more and more information with your companies. You have access to copyrighted information information publicly available. How do your companies... Excuse me. How do your products currently use information gathered from users in an earlier exchanges chair if I may? Several of you stated that users can opt out of sharing your data. What is the default option? And how are trade secrets and other confidential business or government information from enterprise clients being used to trade AI? Who have you paid for the valuable data that you are using to train your models?" }, { "turn_id": 397, "start_sec": 16621.72, "end_sec": 16732.877, "start_hms": "04:37:01", "end_hms": "04:38:52", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I want to start off by acknowledging the tragic incident that you referenced. Any incidents of harm that results from our product or any other product is tragic, and we take it seriously. I'd like to tell you about ChatGPT for teens, which is... Was recently released to focus specifically on users ages 13 to 18, and is designed to be safe by default. That includes safety protections on the type of content that is available, limiting content that might be related to suicide or self-harm, eating disorders, violence, or graphic and... Or sexual content. We also include take-a-break reminders to remind teens to stop using ChatGPT. And we have parental controls, optional parental controls that allow parents to add additional layers of safety onto their teen's experience. One thing that I will highlight here is, if a teen indicates signs of suicide or self-harm, we have a feature that allows the parent to be notified. On your question of privacy and data, as I and my colleagues have shared, we take privacy seriously, and our core value is that users should have control over their data. And I'm happy to follow up on specific details of how those controls work at a later time. Default option?", "text_unedited": "So I wanna start off by acknowledging, the tragic incident that you referenced. Any incidents of harm that results from our product or any other product is tragic, and we take it seriously. I'd like to tell you about ChatGPT for teens, which is... Was was recently released, to focus specifically on users ages 13 to 18, and is designed to be safe by default. That includes, safety protections on the type of content that is available, limiting content that might be related to suicide or self harm, eating disorders, violence, or graphic graphic and... Or sexual content. We also include take a break reminders, to remind teens, to stop using ChatGPT. And we have, parental controls, optional parental controls that, allow parents to, add additional layers of safety onto their teen's experience. One thing that I will highlight here is, if a teen indicates signs of suicide or self harm, we have a feature that allows the parent to be notified. On your question of privacy and data, as I and my colleagues, have shared, we take privacy privacy seriously, and our core value is that users should have control over their data. And I'm I'm happy to follow-up on on specific details of how those controls work at a later time.... Default option?" }, { "turn_id": 398, "start_sec": 16735.035, "end_sec": 16740.717, "start_hms": "04:38:55", "end_hms": "04:39:00", "speaker_name": "Pierina Ana Sanchez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 43, "text_clean": "I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. What is the default option with respect to who owns the data and how it is used?", "text_unedited": "I'm sorry. I didn't hear you. What is the default option with respect to who owns the data and how it is used?" }, { "turn_id": 399, "start_sec": 16742.65, "end_sec": 16757.545, "start_hms": "04:39:02", "end_hms": "04:39:17", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So users have control over their data. Everything is privacy... Default option. Everything is privacy-protected by default, and users have the option to turn off their data for training or request that it be deleted?", "text_unedited": "So users have control over their data. Everything is privacy...... Default option. Everything is privacy protected by default, and users have the option to turn off their data for training or request that it be deleted?" }, { "turn_id": 400, "start_sec": 16763.625, "end_sec": 16885.06, "start_hms": "04:39:23", "end_hms": "04:41:25", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, first off, I just want to acknowledge the terrible tragedy that was a terrible tragedy in relation to the Turner-Scott family and how distressing and upsetting that is to hear and my sympathies and condolences to that family. In relation to how Meta approaches minors and young people, creating a safe and productive experience is absolutely imperative to Meta, and we're committed to providing a safe and responsible AI, especially for teens. And we have strong policies and safeguards in place in relation to that. For example, by default, minors only have age-appropriate interactions, meaning that content would not be out of place in a PG-13 movie, for example. We also prohibit AI offerings from providing licensed professional information like medical information and direct people towards appropriate resources. In relation to training data, we take creativity, copyright, and IP rights seriously and believe our practices are consistent with the law. We train on information from the Internet, information licensed from third parties, and information shared across our services. And we provide all of the information in relation to how we use that data in our privacy center. In relation to Muse, the... As I mentioned, I think a little earlier, individuals interacting with Muse can opt out of their interactions for training.", "text_unedited": "Council member, first off, I just want to acknowledge the terrible tragedy that was a terrible tragedy in relation to the Turner Scott family and how distressing and upsetting that is to to hear and, you know, my sympathies and condolences to that family. In relation to how Meta approaches minors and young people, creating a safe and productive experience is absolutely imperative to Meta, and we're committed to providing a safe and responsible AI, especially for teams. And we have strong policies and safeguards in place in relation to that. For example, by default, minors only have age appropriate interactions, meaning that content would not be out of place on a 13 movie, for example. We also prohibit AI offerings from providing licensed professional information like medical information and direct people towards appropriate resources. In relation to training data, we take creativity, copyright, and IP rights seriously and believe our practices are consistent with the law. We train on information from the Internet, information licensed from third parties, and information shared across our services. And we provide all of the information in relation to how we use that data in our privacy center. In relation to to Muse, the... As I mentioned, I think a little earlier, in individuals interacting with Muse can opt out of their interactions for training." }, { "turn_id": 401, "start_sec": 16889.54, "end_sec": 16974.484, "start_hms": "04:41:29", "end_hms": "04:42:54", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Ma'am, I want to highlight a few protections that we have in place with kids in mind in particular. One is for what we call persona, which prevents claims of sentience or simulating relationships and role play that helps prevent kids from thinking they're talking to a person and developing a relationship. We also prevent sexually explicit outputs from chats with kids. And we also have for all ages protocols on suicide and self-harm where we refer users who are expressing suicidal ideation or other types of self-harm to crisis resources. That approach draws from our deep experience fielding such queries on search. When it comes to training and the default question you asked, for those over 18, it is default on to use chat data to train our models to improve, but all users have control over the ability to turn this feature off or to control the length of time such information is kept. For users between 13 and 17, it's default off. Teens can choose to turn it on if they wish to train a model through our Personal Intelligence program. And for 13, it is default off as well, and we never use data for under 13 to train our models.", "text_unedited": "Ma'am, I wanna highlight a few protections that we have in place with kids in mind in particular. One is for what we call persona, which prevents claims of sentience or simulating relationships and role play that helps prevent kids from thinking they're talking to a person and developing a relationship. We also prevent sexually explicit outputs from chats with kids. And we also have for all ages protocols on suicide and self harm where we refer users who are expressing suicidal ideation or other types of self harm to crisis resources. That approach draws from our deep experience fielding such queries on search. When it comes to training and the default question you asked, for those over 18, it is default on to use chat data to train our models to improve, but all users have control over the ability to turn this feature off or to control the length of time such information is kept. For users between 13 and 17, it's default off. Teens can choose to turn it on if they wish to train a model through our personal intelligence program. And for 13, it is default off as well, and we never use data for under 13 to train our models." }, { "turn_id": 402, "start_sec": 16977.38, "end_sec": 16979.621, "start_hms": "04:42:57", "end_hms": "04:42:59", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "And Thank you. At Anthropic,", "text_unedited": "And Thank you. At Anthropic," }, { "turn_id": 403, "start_sec": 16979.701, "end_sec": 17018.285, "start_hms": "04:42:59", "end_hms": "04:43:38", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "we have limited the Claude platform to those only 18. We're concerned about child well-being. We monitor and detect for any users that might be 18 or under. And when that flags, we investigate to make sure that we could remove their access if so. On training data, I will have to get back to you with more details as it's not my role. My understanding is that all users must select which option they would like. But I would refer you to our public documentation where we describe this in detail.", "text_unedited": "we, have limited the cloud platform to those only 18. We're concerned about child well-being. We monitor and detect for any users that might be 18 or under. And when that flags, we investigate to make sure that we could remove their access if so. On training data, I will have to get back to you with more details as it's not my role. My understanding is that all users must select which option they would like. But I would refer you to our public documentation where we we, describe this in detail." }, { "turn_id": 404, "start_sec": 17020.125, "end_sec": 17026.605, "start_hms": "04:43:40", "end_hms": "04:43:46", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all. So up next, we have Council Member Phil Wong, Council Member Zhuang, and then Epstein.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all. So up next, we have council member Phil Wang, council member Shuang, and then Epstein." }, { "turn_id": 405, "start_sec": 17026.764, "end_sec": 17067.021, "start_hms": "04:43:46", "end_hms": "04:44:27", "speaker_name": "Phil Wong", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 44, "text_clean": "K. Thank you, Chair. My question pertains to the self-improvement process, the recursive self-improvement process, as well as the training activities of your company's AI model. And it is my understanding that when you... When it goes through the self-improvement process, it generates code that will... Itself will run next time around, and then it will be a smarter AI model. Is that right? OpenAI? Yes or no? Yes or no? It generates code. So there be a smarter AI model.", "text_unedited": "K. Thank you, chair. My question pertains to, the self improvement process, the recursive self improvement process, as well as the training activities of your company's AI model. And it is my understanding that when you... When it goes through, the self improvement process, it generates code that will... Itself will run next time around, and then it will be a smarter AI model. Is that right? OpenAI? Yes or no? Yes or no? It generates code. So there be a smarter AI model." }, { "turn_id": 406, "start_sec": 17068.14, "end_sec": 17076.525, "start_hms": "04:44:28", "end_hms": "04:44:36", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I'd like to get back to you on the specific definition of RSI. I'm not sure that what you're saying maps exactly to the technical definition we use. K.", "text_unedited": "I'd like to get back to you on the specific definition of RSI. I'm not sure that what you're saying maps exactly to the technical definition we use. K." }, { "turn_id": 407, "start_sec": 17076.924, "end_sec": 17083.164, "start_hms": "04:44:36", "end_hms": "04:44:43", "speaker_name": "Phil Wong", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 44, "text_clean": "Anthropic, does it generate code automatically to make itself smarter as part of the process?", "text_unedited": "Entropic, does it generate code automatically to make itself smarter as part of the process?" }, { "turn_id": 408, "start_sec": 17084.3, "end_sec": 17091.021, "start_hms": "04:44:44", "end_hms": "04:44:51", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yes. We've detailed publicly multiple times the degrees in which models that generate code are being used in our Does", "text_unedited": "Yes. We've detailed, publicly multiple times the degrees in which models that generate code are being used in our Does" }, { "turn_id": 409, "start_sec": 17091.5, "end_sec": 17097.66, "start_hms": "04:44:51", "end_hms": "04:44:57", "speaker_name": "Phil Wong", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 44, "text_clean": "your model self-generate code as part of the training activities or self-improvement process?", "text_unedited": "your model self generate code as part of the training activities or self improvement process?" }, { "turn_id": 410, "start_sec": 17098.506, "end_sec": 17103.467, "start_hms": "04:44:58", "end_hms": "04:45:03", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, I'll need to get back to you and have our technical experts follow up. How about Google?", "text_unedited": "Council member, I'll need to get back to you and have our technical experts follow-up. How about Google?" }, { "turn_id": 411, "start_sec": 17104.586, "end_sec": 17111.785, "start_hms": "04:45:04", "end_hms": "04:45:11", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yeah. Same here, sir. I'm not sure we would describe it exactly the way you are describing, so I want to get you the precise technical definition.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Same here, sir. I'm not sure we would describe it exactly the way you are describing, so I wanna get you the precise technical definition." }, { "turn_id": 412, "start_sec": 17111.785, "end_sec": 17132.504, "start_hms": "04:45:11", "end_hms": "04:45:32", "speaker_name": "Phil Wong", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 44, "text_clean": "Well, here's my question. If your model improves by itself by generating code, is there a human being... Is it a team of human beings that checks the code to make sure that it is benign and not misaligned or malicious? Can each one of you answer that?", "text_unedited": "Well, here's my question. If if your model improves by itself by generating code, is there a human being... Is it a team of human beings that checks the code to make sure that it is benign and not misaligned or malicious? Can can each one of you answer that?" }, { "turn_id": 413, "start_sec": 17134.904, "end_sec": 17163.305, "start_hms": "04:45:34", "end_hms": "04:46:03", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So as part of our safety process, I... I've mentioned our Preparedness Framework that outlines how we evaluate models and how we assess risks across a wide range of national security risks. So we do robust evaluations of a set of risks, and we make those results public as part of our system card, which we release with every major model.", "text_unedited": "So as part of our safety process, I... I've mentioned our preparedness framework that outlines how we evaluate models, and how we assess risks across a wide range of national security risks. So we do, robust evaluations of a set of risks, and we make those results public as part of our, system card, which we release, with every major model." }, { "turn_id": 414, "start_sec": 17164.984, "end_sec": 17173.91, "start_hms": "04:46:04", "end_hms": "04:46:13", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, as part of our scaling framework, we outline considerations that we are taking overall to maintain human control of model development.", "text_unedited": "Council member, as part of our scaling framework, we outline considerations that we are taking overall to maintain human control of model development." }, { "turn_id": 415, "start_sec": 17176.63, "end_sec": 17209.76, "start_hms": "04:46:16", "end_hms": "04:46:49", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, sir. As I said before, we have supervised processes to keep progress verifiable, and we have a range of different techniques to test the model and its performance to ensure that it's staying within defined safety limits. We also have an AI control framework that we released earlier this summer, which similarly takes into account how we're ensuring that our systems are continuously under human control, and we manage the risks of fully autonomous model self-improvement through our Frontier Safety Framework.", "text_unedited": "Yes, sir. As I said before, we have supervised processes to keep progress verifiable, and we have a range of different techniques to test the model and its performance to ensure that it's staying within defined safety limits. We also have an AI control framework that we released earlier this summer, which similarly takes into account how we're ensuring that our systems are continuously under, human control, and we manage the risks of fully autonomous model self improvement through our frontier safety framework." }, { "turn_id": 416, "start_sec": 17211.76, "end_sec": 17233.771, "start_hms": "04:46:51", "end_hms": "04:47:13", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And, yes, humans and the systems we put in place monitor at every level of the model during training, prior to release, post release. But this is an important question because the models are clearly getting better faster, and so we think more is needed here. K. Thank you. Thank you, Chair. Thank you so much. Thank you. Council Member Zhuang.", "text_unedited": "And, yes, humans and the systems we put in place monitor at every level of the model during training, prior to release, post release. But this is an important question because the models are clearly getting better faster, and so we think more is needed here. K. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Thank you so much. Thank you. Council member Huang." }, { "turn_id": 417, "start_sec": 17233.852, "end_sec": 17252.875, "start_hms": "04:47:13", "end_hms": "04:47:32", "speaker_name": "Susan Zhuang", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 20, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair. I have two questions. The first one, what are you doing to offset the massive impact of data centers on the environment? The second one, are you tracking how inaccurate statement or decisions by your AI tools are impacting security?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. I have two questions. The first one, what are you doing to offset the massive impact of data centers on the environment? The second one, are you tracking how inaccurate statement or decisions by your AI tools are impacting security?" }, { "turn_id": 418, "start_sec": 17259.291, "end_sec": 17316.81, "start_hms": "04:47:39", "end_hms": "04:48:36", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I... I'll start by addressing your question on data centers and the environment. As I mentioned before, OpenAI's data centers that we build, they're called Stargate. And for each of our data centers, we build them with and for communities. And the environment and the environmental impacts on communities is part of how we think through our community compacts. For every data center, we have released a community compact that details our commitments to communities, and that includes a range of things like paying our own way on energy as well as commitments to... Community commitments to work with the local governments. But I think the key point is the community compacts are driven by local concerns, and so we want to meet the needs of the community, and we work with them to do that.", "text_unedited": "So I... I'll start by addressing your question on data centers, and the environment. As I mentioned before, OpenAI's, data centers, that we build, they're called Stargate. And for each of our data centers, we build them with and for communities. And the environment and the environmental impacts on communities is part of how we think through our community compacts. For every data center, we have released community compact that details our commitments to communities, and that includes a range of things like paying our own way on energy as well as commitments to... Community commitments, to work with with the the local governments. But I think the key point is, the community compacts are driven by local concerns, and so we want to meet the needs of the community, and and we work with them to do that." }, { "turn_id": 419, "start_sec": 17320.65, "end_sec": 17354.611, "start_hms": "04:48:40", "end_hms": "04:49:14", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, in relation to data centers and the impact of the environment, thank you very much for asking that question. I know it's top of mind for a lot of people. Our sustainable infrastructure commitments are core to our philosophy around our data centers, including consumers should not be bearing the costs and paying our own way in relation to electricity. But I would like to connect you with our data center team so they can provide you with more specific... Specifics on that.", "text_unedited": "Council member, in relation to, to data centers and the impact of the environment, thank you very much for asking that question. I know it's top of mind for a lot of people. Our sustainable infrastructure commitments are are are core to our philosophy around our data centers, including consumers should not be bearing the costs and paying our own way in relation to to electricity. But I would like to connect you with our our data center team so they can provide you with more specific... Specifics on that." }, { "turn_id": 420, "start_sec": 17355.436, "end_sec": 17363.916, "start_hms": "04:49:15", "end_hms": "04:49:23", "speaker_name": "Susan Zhuang", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 20, "text_clean": "How about the one question about the... How you actuate the statement by your AI tools are impacting security?", "text_unedited": "How about the one question about the... How you actuate the statement by your AI tools are impacting security?" }, { "turn_id": 421, "start_sec": 17371.13, "end_sec": 17373.691, "start_hms": "04:49:31", "end_hms": "04:49:33", "speaker_name": "Susan Zhuang", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 20, "text_clean": "Do you guys are tracking those data?", "text_unedited": "Do you guys are tracking those data?" }, { "turn_id": 422, "start_sec": 17375.05, "end_sec": 17394.977, "start_hms": "04:49:35", "end_hms": "04:49:54", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council Member, I think in relation to inaccurate information, AIs can make mistakes. And I think that's important in terms of acknowledging that AIs can make mistakes. We disclose this. We're very transparent in relation to that in terms of our AI offerings.", "text_unedited": "Council member, I I think in relation to inaccurate information, AIs can make mistakes. And I think that's important in terms of acknowledging that AIs can make mistakes. We disclose this. We're very transparent in relation to to to that in terms of our AI offerings." }, { "turn_id": 423, "start_sec": 17398.879, "end_sec": 17434.91, "start_hms": "04:49:58", "end_hms": "04:50:34", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And I can offer a perspective here that we think, and we've worked very hard this year to try to improve the world's security because we think models might, if not properly safeguarded, harm security, specifically the cybersecurity of critical infrastructure or otherwise. This year, we withheld a model to be able to give beneficial access to defenders to have time to patch systems with security vulnerabilities. And I can say working with training teams and otherwise, we work to make the model better at making sure the code that it writes is more secure, for example.", "text_unedited": "And I I can offer a perspective here that, we think, and we've worked very hard this year to try to improve the world's security because we think models might, if not properly safeguarded, harm security, specifically the cybersecurity of critical infrastructure or otherwise. This year, we withheld a model to be able to give beneficial access to defenders to have time to patch systems with security vulnerabilities. And I can say working with training teams and otherwise, we work to make the model better at making sure the code that it writes is more secure, for example." }, { "turn_id": 424, "start_sec": 17436.785, "end_sec": 17443.906, "start_hms": "04:50:36", "end_hms": "04:50:43", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Up next, we have Council Member Epstein followed by Marte followed by Santosuosso.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Up up next, we have council member Epstein followed by Marte followed by Sansuoso." }, { "turn_id": 425, "start_sec": 17444.625, "end_sec": 17527.705, "start_hms": "04:50:44", "end_hms": "04:52:07", "speaker_name": "Harvey Epstein", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 26, "text_clean": "Thank you, Chair, and thank you for being here for... I know it's a long panel. So I have a couple of questions I'll ask him, and, hopefully, you'll be able to answer for the entire four members of the panel. Can you confirm whether you think self-regulation has failed so far? And if it has failed, which I think we effectively think it has, do you think that third-party audits, especially when AI or tools are being used to highlight risk decisions should be regulated and whether government plays an effective role in that regulation? Second, about liability. When AI violates the law, what liability do you think the company should have for legal violations, whether criminal or civil liability? Seems like there's some culpability that should be in place. And then the turnaround time when these violations happen. When some... the hugging face or some other violation happened, what responsibility you have to notify the public and the impacted people? Would you agree to some short turnaround time, whether it's 48 hours or not? And finally, the... We've seen a lot of records about a compilation of these violations of what's happened. Are you willing to commit to releasing the list of places where these kind of rogue actors happened? I know you've released some letters to the EU. Will you release it to the City Council as well so we can see what's been happening in the United States and around the country?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair, and thank you for being here for... I know it's a long panel. So I have a couple of questions I'll ask him, and, hopefully, you'll be able to answer for the entire four members of the panel. Can you confirm whether you think self regulation has failed so far? And if it has failed, which I think we effectively think it has, do you think that, third party audits, especially, when AI or tools are being used to highlight risk decisions should be regulated and whether government plays an effective role in that regulation? Second, about liability. When AI violates the law, what liability do you think the company should have for legal violations, whether criminal or civil liability? Seems like there's some culpability that should be in place. And then the turnaround time when these violations happen. When some when some... You know you know, the hugging face or some other violation happened, what responsibility you have to notify the public and the impacted people? Would you agree to some short turnaround time, whether it's forty eight hours or not? And finally, the... You know, we've seen a lot of records about a compilation of these violations of what's happened. Are you willing to commit to releasing the list of places where these, kind of rogue actors happened? I know you've released some letters to the EU. Will you release it to the city council as well so we can see what's been happening in The United States and around the country?" }, { "turn_id": 426, "start_sec": 17531.889, "end_sec": 17610.564, "start_hms": "04:52:11", "end_hms": "04:53:30", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So on the question of self-regulation, OpenAI was proud to support the recent superintelligence accords. We've also supported voluntary frameworks in the Biden-Harris administration, but we don't think voluntary frameworks are enough. And that is why we have supported regulation for frontier safety both at the federal level and at the state level, and we'll continue to do that. On your question regarding transparency of incidents, so OpenAI is currently investigating past potential incidents of misalignment. And if we discover those incidents, we are notifying third parties and making the results public. I'm also happy to say that we have a reporting framework now where anyone in the company can report suspected incidents of misalignment. We evaluate those incidents, remediate them, notify third parties, and make the results public. So we're doing that already. We think transparency is really important here to help policymakers like you, as well as researchers and the rest of industry, understand the risks and improve safety.", "text_unedited": "So on the question of self regulation, OpenAI was proud, to support, the recent superintelligence accords. We've also supported voluntary frameworks in, the Biden Harris administration, but we don't think voluntary frameworks are enough. And that is why we have supported regulation for frontier safety both at the federal level and at the state level, and we'll continue to do that. On your question regarding, transparency of incidents, so OpenAI, is currently, investigating past potential incidents of misalignment. And if we discover those incidents, we are notifying third parties, and making the results public. I'm also happy to say that we have, a reporting framework now where anyone in the company can report suspected incidents of misalignment. We evaluate those incidents, remediate them, notify third parties, and make the results public. So we're doing that already. We think transparency is really important here to help policymakers like you, as well as researchers and the rest of industry, understand, the risks, and improve safety." }, { "turn_id": 427, "start_sec": 17611.205, "end_sec": 17616.166, "start_hms": "04:53:31", "end_hms": "04:53:36", "speaker_name": "Harvey Epstein", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 26, "text_clean": "And can you share a list of those incidents so we have those, of ones you've already determined?", "text_unedited": "And can you share a list of those incidents so we have those, of ones you've already determined?" }, { "turn_id": 428, "start_sec": 17617.27, "end_sec": 17624.07, "start_hms": "04:53:37", "end_hms": "04:53:44", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yes. They are all available online, and so I'm happy to follow up with the website where they're all publicly available.", "text_unedited": "Yes. They are all available online, and so I'm happy to follow-up with the website, where they're all publicly available." }, { "turn_id": 429, "start_sec": 17625.27, "end_sec": 17629.35, "start_hms": "04:53:45", "end_hms": "04:53:49", "speaker_name": "Harvey Epstein", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 26, "text_clean": "I don't know who goes next, Chair, but I'm... Cahill.", "text_unedited": "I don't know who goes next, chair, but I'm... Kehu." }, { "turn_id": 430, "start_sec": 17629.51, "end_sec": 17703.102, "start_hms": "04:53:49", "end_hms": "04:55:03", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "I'll go next. Thank you, Council Member. Thank you, Chair. In relation to your first question, Council Member, I see it differently in that sense that we're very much accountable. We're accountable. We publish our framework or scaling framework publicly, preparedness reports. We use ex... Outside expertise in relation to the Accord, which we signed with our peers. We committed to partnering with independent auditors and evaluators, and we also consider that there's a considerable body of existing federal law which also applies. In relation to incidents, we have a robust global response program in place in relation to incidents and a very important part of our overall processes, and we report incidents as required by law. In relation to public disclosure, I'm only aware of one incident and... Over the summer, and we have our... A public post in relation to the details of our independent review of that?", "text_unedited": "I'll go next. Thank you, council member. Thank you, chair. In relation to your first question, council member, I see it differently in in that sense that we're very much accountable. We're accountable. We publish our framework or scaling framework publicly, preparedness reports. We use ex... Outside expertise in relation to the Accord, which we signed with our peers. We committed to partnering with independent auditors and evaluators, and we also consider that there's a considerable body of existing federal law which also applies. In relation to incidents, we have a robust global response program in place in relation to incidents and a very important part of our overall processes, and we report incidents as as required by law. In relation to public disclosure, I'm only aware of one incident and... Over the summer, and we have our... A a public post in relation to the details of our independent independent review of that?" }, { "turn_id": 431, "start_sec": 17707.42, "end_sec": 17781.246, "start_hms": "04:55:07", "end_hms": "04:56:21", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Sir, as I've stated in earlier answers, we believe that AI is covered by existing regulation at both the federal and state level. But where there are gaps in existing regulation or existing law or where, in particular, frontier AI poses potentially new risks, we have supported regulation at the federal level and also regulations, both federally and at the state level as well. On liability, we think it's important to attach accountability and responsibility to the party that is closest to the knowledge about harm and to the possible cause of harm as well. So we really see this as a value chain approach to thinking through AI liability. In many cases, existing torts already have procedures for assigning accountability, depending on the particulars of a case. And then I'm happy to have the local team in New York follow up with you about our three incidents.", "text_unedited": "Sir, as I've stated in earlier answers, we believe that, AI is, covered by existing regulation at both the federal and state level. But where there are gaps in existing regulation or existing law or where, in particular frontier AI poses, potentially new risks. We have, supported, regulation at the federal level and also regulations, both federally and at the state level as well. On liability, we think it's important to attach accountability and responsibility, to the party that is closest to the the knowledge about harm and to the possible cause of harm as well. So we really see this as a value chain approach to thinking through AI liability. In many cases, existing torts, already have procedures for, assigning accountability, depending on the, the particulars of of a case. And then I'm happy to to have the local team in New York follow-up with you, about, our three incidents." }, { "turn_id": 432, "start_sec": 17783.486, "end_sec": 17868.555, "start_hms": "04:56:23", "end_hms": "04:57:48", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And at Anthropic, we have long pushed for two things. The first is for the industry itself to push its own way up the safety frontier. Call that the race to the top, but we've tried to do that from day one, always improving and always trying to create a gold standard so that everybody can rise together. I have personally thought that some of that has been very, very positive. However, we have to go further. And for that reason, we welcome the role of government. We have detailed proposals at the federal level with our advanced AI framework. And we supported state level, for this reason as well, including ambitious legislation in Massachusetts. On the point about liability, I'm fairly far from being a lawyer, but I can say that Anthropic is committed to following all relevant laws. And to the excellent question on how we should handle incidents, I think a couple principles are really important to me having seen some of these incidents up close. The first is you have to triage, investigate, and disclose fast and be transparent about it. I think everybody here agrees with that. At the same time, we need to take the safety of those affected extremely seriously. In some of these incidents, disclosing certain information might put them at further harm. And so our first priority is making sure that those affected would not be further harmed. But at the same time, we need to very ambitiously and urgently disclose so that all can benefit.", "text_unedited": "And, at Anthropic, we have long pushed for two things. The first is for the industry itself to push its own way up the safety frontier. Call that the race to the top, but we've tried to do that from from day one, always improving and always trying to create a gold standard so that, everybody can rise together. I have personally thought that some of that has been very, very positive. However, we have to go further. And for that reason, we welcome the role of government. We have detailed proposals, at the federal level with our advanced AI framework. And we supported state level, for this reason as well, including ambitious legislation in in Massachusetts. On the point about liability, I'm fairly far from being a lawyer, but I I can say that Anthropic is committed to following all all relevant laws. And to the excellent question on how we should handle incidents, I I think a couple principles are really important to me having seen some of these incidents up close. The first is you have to triage, investigate, and disclose fast and be transparent about it. I think everybody here agrees with that. At the same time, we need to take the safety of those affected extremely seriously. In some of these incidents, disclosing certain information, might put them at further harm. And so our first priority is making sure that those affected would not be further harmed. But at the same time, we need to very ambitiously and urgently disclose so that all can benefit." }, { "turn_id": 433, "start_sec": 17869.275, "end_sec": 17882.83, "start_hms": "04:57:49", "end_hms": "04:58:02", "speaker_name": "Harvey Epstein", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 26, "text_clean": "Yeah. I appreciate the follow-up on the information, especially if there are some violations and the timeline for getting people inputted, and I thank the Chair for the time. Thank you so much. Up next, we have Council Member Marte followed by Santosuosso", "text_unedited": "Yeah. I appreciate the follow-up on the information, especially if there are some violations and and the timeline for getting people inputted, and I thank the chair for the time. Thank you so much. Up next, we have council member Marte followed by Santosuoso" }, { "turn_id": 434, "start_sec": 17882.83, "end_sec": 17883.95, "start_hms": "04:58:02", "end_hms": "04:58:03", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "and then Won.", "text_unedited": "and then Juan." }, { "turn_id": 435, "start_sec": 17884.91, "end_sec": 17920.076, "start_hms": "04:58:04", "end_hms": "04:58:40", "speaker_name": "Christopher Marte", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 45, "text_clean": "Thank you all for being here and staying so late, and I want to thank the Speaker and Chair for hosting this hearing. I want to just get some clarity. One of the bill sponsors of the RAISE Act said that OpenAI was actually against... Strongly against the initial draft language of the bill, and you stated that you have been supportive of the RAISE Act in Albany. So I kind of want to know, just because it seems like you guys have been supportive of a lot of legislation, based on your testimony, what specific legislation are you against in New York State or on a federal level?", "text_unedited": "Thank you all for being here and staying so late, and I wanna thank the speaker and chair for hosting this hearing. You know, I wanna just get some clarity. One of the bill sponsors of the RAISE Act said that OpenAI was actually against... Strongly against the initial draft language of the bill, and you stated that you have been supportive of the RAISE Act in in Albany. So I kinda wanna know, just because it seems like you guys have been supportive of a lot of legislation, based on your testimony, what specific legislation are you against in New York state or on a federal level?" }, { "turn_id": 436, "start_sec": 17922.955, "end_sec": 17948.734, "start_hms": "04:58:42", "end_hms": "04:59:08", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So thank you for the question. OpenAI worked with other companies on the New York RAISE Act, and we do support the New York RAISE Act, which passed. We also, as I've mentioned, supported legislation that actually goes a step beyond the New York RAISE Act. For example, in Illinois, that requires independent third-party audits of safety frameworks.", "text_unedited": "So thank you for the question. OpenAI worked, with other companies on, the New York RAISE Act, and we do support, the New York RAISE Act, which passed. We also, as I've mentioned, supported legislation that actually goes a step beyond the New York RAISE Act. For example, in Illinois, that requires independent third party audits of safety frameworks." }, { "turn_id": 437, "start_sec": 17949.855, "end_sec": 17956.334, "start_hms": "04:59:09", "end_hms": "04:59:16", "speaker_name": "Christopher Marte", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 45, "text_clean": "Are there any pieces of legislation, and I guess this is for everyone, that you are against on the state level or federal level?", "text_unedited": "Are are there any pieces of legislation, and I guess this is for everyone, that you are against on the state level or federal level?" }, { "turn_id": 438, "start_sec": 17961.2, "end_sec": 17985.945, "start_hms": "04:59:21", "end_hms": "04:59:45", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "I go next. Council Member, how I think about it generally is the importance of ensuring that we have a robust uniform federal standard. I think I mentioned earlier in the day that AI is transcontinental. It is inherently interstate. So it is important that there is a robust uniform federal standard in relation to how AI is governed.", "text_unedited": "I I I go next. Council member, how I think about it generally is the importance of ensuring that we have a robust uniform federal standard. I think I mentioned earlier in the day that AI is transcontinental. It is inherently interstate. So it is important that there is a robust uniform federal standard in relation to to how AI is governed." }, { "turn_id": 439, "start_sec": 17990.32, "end_sec": 18014.475, "start_hms": "04:59:50", "end_hms": "05:00:14", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "I think we would align ourselves with those comments, sir. I think the most important thing for us to focus on is getting a strong federal framework, particularly around frontier AI, and also working through an overall regulatory framework that's going to ensure AI safety and also ensure that we can deploy and leverage AI across the entire country.", "text_unedited": "I think we would align ourselves with those comments, sir. I think the most important thing for us to focus on is, getting a strong federal framework, particularly around frontier AI, and also, working through, an overall regulatory framework that's going to ensure AI safety and also ensure that we can deploy and leverage AI, across the entire country." }, { "turn_id": 440, "start_sec": 18016.69, "end_sec": 18038.314, "start_hms": "05:00:16", "end_hms": "05:00:38", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. And likewise, I don't know what our position is there exactly. What I do know is that we have outlined and supported our specific, federal legislation proposals. We think a core part of this, for example, needs to involve independent evaluators. And we are long-standing supporters of the role of government here.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. And and likewise, I don't know what our position is there exactly. What I do know is that we have outlined and supported our specific, federal legislation proposals. We think a core part of this, for example, needs to involve independent evaluators. And, we we are, you know, long standing supporters of the role of government here." }, { "turn_id": 441, "start_sec": 18040.314, "end_sec": 18046.154, "start_hms": "05:00:40", "end_hms": "05:00:46", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all so much. Up next, we have Council Member Santosuosso, Won, and then Hanif.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all so much. Up next, we have council member Santosuoso, Juan, and then Hanif." }, { "turn_id": 442, "start_sec": 18048.58, "end_sec": 18090.08, "start_hms": "05:00:48", "end_hms": "05:01:30", "speaker_name": "Kayla Santosuosso", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 46, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair. I primarily have questions for just Mr. Graham and for OpenAI as well. This morning, we heard testimony from a former Anthropic employee that based on his time in the company, he believes that it is more likely than not, that misaligned AI will lead to the quote, unquote, total extinction of humanity. Another whistleblower who testified this morning gave this a one in three chance. Mr. Graham, if I understand it, you are part of the red team, which is tasked with identifying and addressing the riskiest capabilities of AI. So my question for you is how many people are on your team?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. I primarily have questions for, just mister Graham and, for OpenAI as well. This morning, we heard testimony from a former Anthropic employee that based on his time in the company, he believes that it is more likely than not, that misaligned AI will lead to the, quote, unquote, total extinction of humanity. Another whistleblower who testified this morning gave the... Gave this a one in three chance. Mister Graham, if I understand it, you are part of the red team, which is tasked with identifying and addressing the riskiest capabilities of AI. So my question for you is how many people are on your team?" }, { "turn_id": 443, "start_sec": 18091.955, "end_sec": 18100.355, "start_hms": "05:01:31", "end_hms": "05:01:40", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Current estimates about 25 just on my team that we have. I will say we have a number of teams that work on similarly catastrophic risks in various roles,", "text_unedited": "Current estimates about 25 just on my team that we have. I will say we have a number of teams that work on similarly catastrophic risks in various roles," }, { "turn_id": 444, "start_sec": 18100.516, "end_sec": 18104.834, "start_hms": "05:01:40", "end_hms": "05:01:44", "speaker_name": "Kayla Santosuosso", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 46, "text_clean": "number into the hundreds at Anthropic. And how many people work for Anthropic overall?", "text_unedited": "number into the hundreds at Anthropic. And how many people work for Anthropic overall?" }, { "turn_id": 445, "start_sec": 18107.121, "end_sec": 18110.48, "start_hms": "05:01:47", "end_hms": "05:01:50", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "My current understanding is maybe a bit more than 5,000.", "text_unedited": "My current understanding is maybe a bit more than 5,000." }, { "turn_id": 446, "start_sec": 18111.121, "end_sec": 18125.025, "start_hms": "05:01:51", "end_hms": "05:02:05", "speaker_name": "Kayla Santosuosso", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 46, "text_clean": "So 25 people are working on the riskiest forms of AI in a company that has 5,000 employees dedicated to advancing just the models without regard for safety or for that level of risk?", "text_unedited": "So 25 people are working on the riskiest forms of AI in a company that has 5,000 employees dedicated to advancing just the models without regard for safety or for that level of risk?" }, { "turn_id": 447, "start_sec": 18125.906, "end_sec": 18151.08, "start_hms": "05:02:05", "end_hms": "05:02:31", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "In reality, if you look at all the roles focused on catastrophic risks, my personal estimate would be likely several hundred at least. This is distributed across our safeguards team that focuses on ensuring that the models or any misuse for catastrophic risks does not happen. Our alignment research team that focuses on notions of lossless control, for example, and between them, at least several hundred.", "text_unedited": "In in reality, there... If you, look at all the roles focused on catastrophic risks, my personal estimate would be likely several 100 at least. This is distributed across our safeguards team that focuses on ensuring that, the models or any misuse for catastrophic risks does not happen. Our alignment research team that focuses on notions of lossless control, for example, and between them, at least several 100." }, { "turn_id": 448, "start_sec": 18151.855, "end_sec": 18161.615, "start_hms": "05:02:31", "end_hms": "05:02:41", "speaker_name": "Kayla Santosuosso", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 46, "text_clean": "And do you feel that is sufficient, or do you feel that you need to dedicate more time and resources and people to the riskiest capabilities of AI given the level of risk?", "text_unedited": "And do you feel that is sufficient, or do you feel that you need to dedicate more time and resources and people to the riskiest capabilities of AI given the level of risk?" }, { "turn_id": 449, "start_sec": 18162.574, "end_sec": 18170.66, "start_hms": "05:02:42", "end_hms": "05:02:50", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Yeah. Our view is that we put a lot of resources into this, and this is what we're known for. But at the same time, we need to continue doing more.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Our our view is that we put a lot of resources into this, and this is what we're known for. But at the same time, we need to continue doing more." }, { "turn_id": 450, "start_sec": 18171.059, "end_sec": 18192.275, "start_hms": "05:02:51", "end_hms": "05:03:12", "speaker_name": "Kayla Santosuosso", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 46, "text_clean": "This is a part of Anthropic that continues to grow quite substantially, especially as the models become more capable. And I don't mean to cut you off, but I only have so much time, so I want to ask the same question of OpenAI. How many people on your team are dedicated to addressing and identifying the riskiest capabilities of AI versus the number of employees in your company overall? And do you find that sufficient?", "text_unedited": "This is a part of Anthropic that is... Continues to grow quite substantially, especially as the models become more capable. And I don't mean to cut you off, but I just... I only have so much time, so I I wanna ask the same question of OpenAI. How many people on your team are dedicated to addressing and identifying the riskiest capabilities of AI versus the number of employees in your company overall? And do you find that sufficient?" }, { "turn_id": 451, "start_sec": 18192.914, "end_sec": 18210.885, "start_hms": "05:03:12", "end_hms": "05:03:30", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So I lead the policy team, but I'm happy to get back to you on numbers of people in the overall company as well as in our safety teams. But at OpenAI, we don't believe that you should just rely on our safety teams and our evaluators.", "text_unedited": "So I lead the policy team, but I'm happy to get back to you on numbers on... Of people in the overall company as well as in our safety teams. But at OpenAI, we don't believe that it's just... That you should just rely on our safety teams and our evaluators." }, { "turn_id": 452, "start_sec": 18210.885, "end_sec": 18224.3, "start_hms": "05:03:30", "end_hms": "05:03:44", "speaker_name": "Kayla Santosuosso", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 46, "text_clean": "I'm sorry. Again, I'm sorry to cut you off. I only have so much time. Can you tell me how many people in your company are currently working to address the risk of the potential extinction of humanity?", "text_unedited": "I'm sorry. I don't... Again, I I... I'm sorry to cut you off. I just only have so much time. Can you tell me how many people in your company are currently working to address the risk of the knee... Of the potential extinction of humanity?" }, { "turn_id": 453, "start_sec": 18226.54, "end_sec": 18235.18, "start_hms": "05:03:46", "end_hms": "05:03:55", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "As I said, I lead the policy team, so I don't have that number. But we not only have teams that are at... So thank you so much. I appreciate it.", "text_unedited": "As I said, I lead the policy team, so I don't have that number. But we not only have teams that are at... So thank you so much. I appreciate it." }, { "turn_id": 454, "start_sec": 18236.076, "end_sec": 18245.836, "start_hms": "05:03:56", "end_hms": "05:04:05", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Alright. Thank you so much. Up next, we have Council Member Won, followed by Hanif, followed by Avilés, followed by Gutiérrez.", "text_unedited": "Alright. Thank you so much. Up next, we have council member one, followed by Hanif, followed by Aviles, followed by Gutierrez." }, { "turn_id": 455, "start_sec": 18245.836, "end_sec": 18271.574, "start_hms": "05:04:05", "end_hms": "05:04:31", "speaker_name": "Julie Won", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 48, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. This is for all panelists. What is the exact failure rate or benchmark threshold that would cause you to halt the deployment of a new model? And if your model successfully generates a bioweapon design 5% of the time during internal testing, do you still release it? And then I have a separate question. Will you commit today to providing exact redacted logs of the prompts that successfully jailbroke your models by biosecurity filters during your internal testing?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. This is for all panelists. What is the exact failure rate or benchmark threshold that would cause you to halt the deployment of a new model? And if your model successfully generates a bio weapon design 5% of the time during internal testing, do you still release it? And then I have a separate question. Will you commit today to providing exact redacted logs of the prompts that successfully jailbroke your models by biosecurity features... Filters during your internal testing?" }, { "turn_id": 456, "start_sec": 18276.45, "end_sec": 18297.176, "start_hms": "05:04:36", "end_hms": "05:04:57", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "So to your question on statistics or probabilities, I don't have a specific number. But what I can say is that no level of catastrophic risk is remotely acceptable. And we don't believe that we should be training models unless we can make an extremely strong case that we can keep them under human control.", "text_unedited": "So to your question on statistics or probabilities, I don't have a specific number. But what I can say is that no level of catastrophic risk is remotely acceptable. And we don't believe that we should be training models unless we can make an extremely strong case that we can keep them under human control." }, { "turn_id": 457, "start_sec": 18301.35, "end_sec": 18321.486, "start_hms": "05:05:01", "end_hms": "05:05:21", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council member, I would just note that we are committed to building AI safely. And we have laid out in detail how we approach this in our scaling framework and in our preparedness reports. In relation to further detail, I would need to get back to you on specifics.", "text_unedited": "Council member, I would just would just note that we are committed to building AI safely. And we have laid out our... In detail how we approach this in our scaling framework and in our preparedness reports. In relation to further detail, I would need to get back to you on specifics." }, { "turn_id": 458, "start_sec": 18322.525, "end_sec": 18324.045, "start_hms": "05:05:22", "end_hms": "05:05:24", "speaker_name": "Julie Won", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 48, "text_clean": "For the other panelists?", "text_unedited": "For the other panelists?" }, { "turn_id": 459, "start_sec": 18325.006, "end_sec": 18358.225, "start_hms": "05:05:25", "end_hms": "05:05:58", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Yes, ma'am. I don't have a specific number for failure rate that would cause us to make a nonlaunch decision. Although, I do know that we aim for safety and performance standards ahead of allowing ourselves to launch. And if we're not meeting that, it's not a good enough model or product for us to release. I'm not personally aware of any biosecurity evaluations where successful jailbreaks happened. So I'm going to have to go back to the teams and ask, if they've ever seen such a thing and get back to you on that.", "text_unedited": "Yes, ma'am. I don't have a specific number for failure rate that would cause us to make a nonlaunch decision. Although, I do know that, we aim for, safety and performance standards ahead of allowing ourselves to launch. And if we're not meeting that, it's not a good enough model or product for us to release. I'm not personally aware of any, biosecurity evaluations where jailbreak... Successful jailbreaks happened. So I'm gonna have to, go back to the teams and ask, if they've ever seen such a thing and get back to you on that." }, { "turn_id": 460, "start_sec": 18360.459, "end_sec": 18406.146, "start_hms": "05:06:00", "end_hms": "05:06:46", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Thanks. And as I mentioned earlier, I think we were essentially the first team in the industry to design and test models for this purpose. We outline a very nuanced process of how we decide how to launch with respect to biological capabilities, for example. And in fact, in the past, we have held the model because we needed more time to assess its biological capabilities and proactively implemented safer safeguards, for this reason. To the point of jailbreaks, this is a great question. One of the hard parts is sometimes you do or don't want to share a jailbreak depending on whether it would put other models at risk. And so we regularly publish our research and alignment reports with all the information that we possibly can that would be safe to do so, and we try to set the industry standard there.", "text_unedited": "Thanks. And as I mentioned earlier, I think we were essentially the first team in the industry to design and test models for this purpose. We outline a very nuanced process of how we decide how to launch with respect to biological capabilities, for example. And in fact, in the past, we have held the model because we needed more time to assess its biological capabilities and proactively implemented safer safeguards, for this reason. To the point of jailbreaks, this is a great question. One of the hard parts is sometimes you do or don't want to share a jailbreak depending on whether it would put other models at risk. And so we regularly publish our research and alignment reports in order... With all the information that we possibly can, that would be safe to do so, and we try to set the industry standard there." }, { "turn_id": 461, "start_sec": 18406.465, "end_sec": 18431.525, "start_hms": "05:06:46", "end_hms": "05:07:11", "speaker_name": "Julie Won", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 48, "text_clean": "Right now, I know you're not in the room, but behind me, we have the safety claims, and we have all the incidents that have happened, including biosecurity, which you have heard also from Council Member Lynn Schulman, who continues to lead us in as a committee chair for health and hospitals. So can you please clarify? So Anthropic has been the only one that gave me a clear answer. So for Anthropic, what is the exact failure rate and benchmark threshold? And the rest of you have not given me that answer.", "text_unedited": "Right now, I know you're not in the room, but behind me, we have the safety claims, and we have all the incidents that have happened, including biosecurity, which you have heard also from council member Lynn Schulman who who continues to lead us in, as a committee chair for health and hospitals. So can you please clarify? So Anthropic has been the only one that gave me a clear answer. So for Anthropic, what is the exact failure rate and benchmark threshold? And the rest of you have not given me that answer." }, { "turn_id": 462, "start_sec": 18431.846, "end_sec": 18435.205, "start_hms": "05:07:11", "end_hms": "05:07:15", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "And then we'll conclude and move on to Council Member Hanif.", "text_unedited": "And then we'll conclude and move on to council member Hanif." }, { "turn_id": 463, "start_sec": 18437.525, "end_sec": 18469.736, "start_hms": "05:07:17", "end_hms": "05:07:49", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "The answer is it's nuanced. What we do, if you would like the sort of complex answer, is we detail multi-hundred pages of reports, several dozen of which are usually allocated to biology every time we launch a model. You can see the exact, levels of capability and the exact reasoning that we put in when we look at a number of different tests that have different so on quote, unquote, failure rates that allow us to make that decision. I think that highlights just how much effort we put very specifically into not just biology, but cybersecurity and self improvement and alignment as well.", "text_unedited": "The answer is it's nuanced. What we do, if you would like the sort of complex answer, is we detail multi 100 pages of reports, several dozen of which are usually allocated to biology every time we launch a model. You can see the exact, levels of capability and the exact reasoning that we put in when we look at a number of different tests that have different so on, you know, quote, unquote, failure rates that allow us to make that decision. I think that highlights just how much effort we put very specifically into, you know, not just biology, but cybersecurity and self improvement and alignment as well." }, { "turn_id": 464, "start_sec": 18473.09, "end_sec": 18490.385, "start_hms": "05:07:53", "end_hms": "05:08:10", "speaker_name": "Julie Won", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 48, "text_clean": "And everybody else? Because if what you claim is true, then you wouldn't have released these models that are causing these harms. But I will pass on. We have to move on. Thank you so much. Council Member Hanif, followed by Council Member Avilés, followed by Council Member Gutiérrez.", "text_unedited": "And everybody else? Because if what you claim is true is true, then you wouldn't have released these models that are causing these harms. But I will pass on. We have to move on. Thank you so much. Council member Hanif, followed by council member Aviles, followed by council member Gutierrez." }, { "turn_id": 465, "start_sec": 18490.625, "end_sec": 18533.81, "start_hms": "05:08:10", "end_hms": "05:08:53", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair. On February 28 of this year, 120 school children and 35 teachers were killed in an airstrike reported as the deadliest US attack on civilians in 35 years. The military has stated the target was misidentified by Project Maven, which originated with Google and Amazon Web Services and later incorporated Palantir Software and Anthropic's Claude. To Mr. Graham from Anthropic, your usage policy prohibits facilitating any act of violence. What mechanism enforces that prohibition in a classified deployment, and how would your company learn of a violation? And has your company ever terminated or suspended a government customer for violating its usage policy? If so, how many times?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. On February twenty eighth of this year, a 120 school children and 35 teachers were killed in an airstrike reported as the deadliest US attack on civilians in thirty five years. The military has stated the target was misidentified by Project Maven, which originated with Google and Amazon Web Services and later incorporated Palantir Software and Anthropic's Claude. To mister Graham from Anthropic, your usage policy prohibits facilitating any act of violence. What mechanism enforces that prohibition in a classified deployment, and how would your company learn of a violation? And has your company ever terminated or suspended a government customer for violating its usage policy? If so, how many times?" }, { "turn_id": 466, "start_sec": 18535.01, "end_sec": 18542.85, "start_hms": "05:08:55", "end_hms": "05:09:02", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "First, I really appreciate this question. In my role, while I don't have the exact answers to that, I can point to", "text_unedited": "First, I I really appreciate this question. In in my role, while I don't have the exact answers to that, I can point to" }, { "turn_id": 467, "start_sec": 18543.17, "end_sec": 18547.445, "start_hms": "05:09:03", "end_hms": "05:09:07", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "our very public positions on... Could you just share them out loud here?", "text_unedited": "our very public positions on Could you just share them out loud here?" }, { "turn_id": 468, "start_sec": 18548.404, "end_sec": 18560.324, "start_hms": "05:09:08", "end_hms": "05:09:20", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "In government, we've taken very public positions against the use of for example, domestic mass surveillance, the use of autonomous weapons or development of autonomous weapons. How does company learn about", "text_unedited": "In government, we've we've taken very public positions against the use of, for example, domestic mass surveillance, the use of autonomous weapons or development of autonomous weapons. How does company learn about" }, { "turn_id": 469, "start_sec": 18560.95, "end_sec": 18567.67, "start_hms": "05:09:20", "end_hms": "05:09:27", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "that violation? I would... And could you also just respond to the piece about the termination", "text_unedited": "that violation? I would And could you also just respond the... To the piece about the termination" }, { "turn_id": 470, "start_sec": 18568.148, "end_sec": 18577.395, "start_hms": "05:09:28", "end_hms": "05:09:37", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "of a government I'm not entirely sure of our process on sort of government sort of monitoring. I'd refer to my colleagues there.", "text_unedited": "of a government I'm not entirely sure of our process on on sort of government sort of monitoring. I'd refer to my my my colleagues there." }, { "turn_id": 471, "start_sec": 18577.555, "end_sec": 18578.275, "start_hms": "05:09:37", "end_hms": "05:09:38", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Thanks.", "text_unedited": "Thanks." }, { "turn_id": 472, "start_sec": 18580.195, "end_sec": 18591.57, "start_hms": "05:09:40", "end_hms": "05:09:51", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council Member Avilés followed by Gutiérrez to close. Thank you so much. To clarify, to close this panel. Oh,", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Council member Aviles followed by Gutierrez to close. Thank you so much. I... To clarify, to close this panel. Oh," }, { "turn_id": 473, "start_sec": 18592.451, "end_sec": 18612.695, "start_hms": "05:09:52", "end_hms": "05:10:12", "speaker_name": "Alexa Avilés", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 50, "text_clean": "so I'd like to ask a quick series of questions to each of you. In this first sec, can you just say yes, no, and we can continue to move forward? So does each of your companies sell or license its products directly or through intermediaries to Immigration and Customs Enforcement or Customs and Border Protection?", "text_unedited": "so I'd I'd like to ask a a quick series of questions to each of you. In this first sec, can you just say yes, no, and we can continue to move forward? So does each of your companies sell or license its products directly or through intermediaries to immigration and customs enforcement or customs and border protection?" }, { "turn_id": 474, "start_sec": 18616.379, "end_sec": 18618.94, "start_hms": "05:10:16", "end_hms": "05:10:18", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I don't know, but I'm happy to get back to you on that.", "text_unedited": "I don't know, but I'm happy to get back to you on that." }, { "turn_id": 475, "start_sec": 18620.54, "end_sec": 18622.78, "start_hms": "05:10:20", "end_hms": "05:10:22", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "I'll get back to you on that council member.", "text_unedited": "I'll get back to you on that council member." }, { "turn_id": 476, "start_sec": 18623.5, "end_sec": 18626.62, "start_hms": "05:10:23", "end_hms": "05:10:26", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "I'm also so sorry I don't know, but we will get back to you.", "text_unedited": "I'm also so sorry I don't know, but we will get back to you." }, { "turn_id": 477, "start_sec": 18627.02, "end_sec": 18665.555, "start_hms": "05:10:27", "end_hms": "05:11:05", "speaker_name": "Alexa Avilés", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 50, "text_clean": "Okay. Nobody knows, but it has been pretty documented that from Google and in particular OpenAI, ICE has been utilizing your technology. So if you could please provide to this council, each of those agreements, if in fact you have them with each of those agencies. Will your company commit to not using New York City resident data or law enforcement or immigration enforcement applications? Four. Excuse me. Will your company commit to not using New York City resident data for law enforcement or immigration enforcement applications?", "text_unedited": "Okay. Nobody knows, but it has been pretty documented that couple of... From Google and in particular OpenAI, ICE has been utilizing your technology. So if you could please provide to this council, each of those agreements, if in fact you have them with each of those agencies. Will your company commit to not using New York City resident data or law enforcement or immigration enforcement applications? Four. Excuse me. Will your company commit to not using New York City resident data for law enforcement or immigration enforcement applications?" }, { "turn_id": 478, "start_sec": 18669.154, "end_sec": 18674.94, "start_hms": "05:11:09", "end_hms": "05:11:14", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I'm sorry. I'm going to have to get back to you on that. I work on the policy team, not with our government contracts.", "text_unedited": "I'm sorry. I'm gonna have to get back to you on that. I work on the policy team, not with our government contracts." }, { "turn_id": 479, "start_sec": 18677.34, "end_sec": 18681.42, "start_hms": "05:11:17", "end_hms": "05:11:21", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "I'm afraid it'll, also, we'll need to get back to you, council member.", "text_unedited": "I'm afraid it'll, also, we'll need to get back to you, council member." }, { "turn_id": 480, "start_sec": 18682.379, "end_sec": 18693.166, "start_hms": "05:11:22", "end_hms": "05:11:33", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "I have to give you the same answer, member, but I'll ask the lawyers to let us know. Do any of your companies audit downstream law enforcement use of its products?", "text_unedited": "I have to give you the same answer, member, but I'll ask the lawyers to to let us know. Do any of your companies audit downstream law enforcement use of its products?" }, { "turn_id": 481, "start_sec": 18696.766, "end_sec": 18699.004, "start_hms": "05:11:36", "end_hms": "05:11:39", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "I don't have the answer to that. I'm happy to follow-up.", "text_unedited": "I don't have the answer to that. I'm happy to follow-up." }, { "turn_id": 482, "start_sec": 18700.371, "end_sec": 18702.771, "start_hms": "05:11:40", "end_hms": "05:11:42", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council member, we'll follow-up with you.", "text_unedited": "Council member, we'll follow-up with you." }, { "turn_id": 483, "start_sec": 18703.81, "end_sec": 18705.17, "start_hms": "05:11:43", "end_hms": "05:11:45", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Same here.", "text_unedited": "Same here." }, { "turn_id": 484, "start_sec": 18706.531, "end_sec": 18709.092, "start_hms": "05:11:46", "end_hms": "05:11:49", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Thank you. Likewise. We can follow-up.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Likewise. We can follow-up." }, { "turn_id": 485, "start_sec": 18711.01, "end_sec": 18713.57, "start_hms": "05:11:51", "end_hms": "05:11:53", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Council Member Gutiérrez.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Council member Gutierrez." }, { "turn_id": 486, "start_sec": 18715.984, "end_sec": 18772.031, "start_hms": "05:11:55", "end_hms": "05:12:52", "speaker_name": "Jennifer Gutiérrez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 51, "text_clean": "Thank you all. I just wanted to ask on a number of questions of issues that were raised today. I feel that every single person on this panel has said safety is of the utmost importance, but I don't feel that in the responses. It feels too nuanced. And I would like to understand specifically, in all cases, as much as you can share, How are you directly ensuring safety of individual users when there's a data breach, when there's issues of surveillance? To, my colleague Council Member Shahana Hanif's questions about AI and violence. What is specifically that you can tell to New Yorkers here that New Yorkers that have signed up to testify? What is the specific safety that you are ensuring? Make me believe that it is of the utmost importance to you all. That's my one question.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all. I just wanted to ask on a number of questions of issues that were raised today. I feel that every single person on this panel has said safety is of the up note... Utmost importance, but I don't believe... I don't feel that. I don't feel that in the responses, it feels too nuanced. And I would like to understand specifically, in all cases, as much as you can share, How are you directly ensuring safety of individual users when there's a data breach, when there's issues of, surveillance? To, my colleague council member Shahana Hanif's questions about AI and violence. What what is specifically that you can tell to New Yorkers here that New Yorkers that have signed up to testify? What what is the specific safety that you are ensuring? Make me believe that it is of the utmost importance to you all. That's my one question." }, { "turn_id": 487, "start_sec": 18774.125, "end_sec": 18843.5, "start_hms": "05:12:54", "end_hms": "05:14:03", "speaker_name": "Morgan Dwyer", "speaker_role": "Witness — OpenAI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 19, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for that question. So safety is a top priority at OpenAI. We build our models to be safe, throughout the entire development and deployment process. That includes removing unsafe data from training. It includes training the models to behave safely and evaluating them to behave safely across a range of risks from cyber, to bio, to child safety. And then we monitor our safeguards for any potential misuse, and we enforce on our usage policies. But to your specific question of what I am personally doing, I am not on the safety team. I lead our policy team, and I'm also a longtime public servant. And I share your concerns about safety, And I think there's an important role for governments to play. And that's why I am proud that my team is working with governments, to support regulations both at the state level and at the federal level because we have strong safety practices, but we should also be held accountable for them.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for that question. So safety is a top priority at OpenAI. We build our models to be safe, throughout the entire development and deployment process. That includes removing unsafe data from training. It includes training the models to behave safely and evaluating them to be safely... To to behave safely across a range of risks from cyber, to bio, to child safety. And then we monitor our safeguards for, for any potential misuse, and we enforce on our usage policies. But to your specific question of what I am personally doing, I am not on the safety team. I lead our policy team, and I'm also a longtime public servant. And I share your concerns about safety, And I think there's an important role for governments to play. And that's why I am proud that my team is working with governments, to support regulations both at the state level and at the federal level because we have strong safety practices, but we should also be held accountable for them." }, { "turn_id": 488, "start_sec": 18846.3, "end_sec": 18875.139, "start_hms": "05:14:06", "end_hms": "05:14:35", "speaker_name": "Shane Cahill", "speaker_role": "Witness — Meta", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 15, "text_clean": "Council member, thank you very much for this question. And overall, thank you for deepening the conversation on this and other important topics. I would just reiterate that Meta is committed to developing and deploying our AI offering safely. That is across the board, both in terms of our models and also our systems and then our usage policies. So we cover the entire spectrum in terms of our AI offerings.", "text_unedited": "Council member, thank you very much for this question. And and overall, thank you for deepening the conversation on this and other important topics. I would just reiterate that Meta is committed to developing and deploying our AI offering safely. That is across the board, both in terms of our models and also our systems and then our usage policies. So we cover the entire spectrum in terms of our AI offerings." }, { "turn_id": 489, "start_sec": 18878.014, "end_sec": 18965.426, "start_hms": "05:14:38", "end_hms": "05:16:05", "speaker_name": "Alice Friend", "speaker_role": "Witness — Google", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 13, "text_clean": "Ma'am, at Google, we have been committed to not just the safety of our users, but the safety and security of the open web itself for over a quarter of a century now. Through our own experiences in our search platform, through everyday tools that users rely on like Gmail, like YouTube, security and safety is incredibly important to us. Because quite frankly, if people did not trust our platforms and our tools, they would not use them and we would be out of business. So for us, safety is a critical business imperative. It's also an imperative as part of being interested and committed to an Internet where people can get information that is useful to them, that can help them live better lives. And finally, we invest in the safety of our tools so that we can deploy them to solve some of the world's biggest challenges. Everything from natural disasters, warning people ahead of time about floods and fires, to breakthroughs in diseases, to unlocking 200 million, all of the world's known proteins so that we can someday cure all disease. To us, safety is just a part of this broader mission, to use technology and to use AI, in particular, to make people's lives better.", "text_unedited": "Ma'am, at Google, we have been committed to not just the safety of our users, but the safety and security of the open web itself for over a quarter of a century now. Through our own experiences in our search platform, through everyday tools that users rely on like Gmail, like YouTube, security and safety is incredibly important to us. Because quite frankly, if people did not trust our platforms and our tools, they would not use them and we would be out of business. So for us, safety is a critical business imperative. It's also an imperative as part of being interested and committed to an Internet where people can get information that is useful to them, that can help them live better lives. And finally, we invest in, the safety of our tools so that we can deploy them to solve some of the world's biggest challenges. Everything from, natural disasters, warning people ahead of time about floods and fires, to breakthroughs in diseases, to unlocking 200,000,000, all of the world's known proteins so that we can someday cure all disease. To us, safety is just a part of this broader mission, to use technology and to use AI, in particular, to make people's lives better." }, { "turn_id": 490, "start_sec": 18966.705, "end_sec": 19034.83, "start_hms": "05:16:06", "end_hms": "05:17:14", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "And if I can share a personal example of this, I joined Anthropic when we fit around two lunch tables. And the reason I did was because these were the people that I saw were taking it most seriously, that the most important component of getting this technology right was making it safe. And I can say that, but let me demonstrate it. From its outset, we are a public benefit corporation legally, so we are legally obligated to weigh the mission of SafeAI, not just profit. And at every step of the way, frequently at meaningful cost to ourselves, we have pioneered or tried to pioneer the science of safety. Everything from training itself, the fundamental research, came from us, the evaluations, the predeployment testing regime, the monitoring and control, and just this year, withholding our most frontier model at the time at great cost in order to deploy with defenders to ensure the world is safe. This is literally our DNA. This is why I'm here. This is why my team and I wake up every morning. And I could tell you for a long time about all the other parts of the stack, but I hope that resonates.", "text_unedited": "And if if I can share a personal example of this, I joined Anthropic when we fit around two lunch tables. And the reason I did was because these were the people that I saw were taking it most seriously, that the most important component of getting this technology right was making it safe. And I can say that, but let me demonstrate it. From its outset, we are a public benefit corporation legally, so we are legally obligated to weigh the mission of SafeAI, not just profit. And at every step of the way, frequently at meaningful cost to ourselves, we have pioneered or tried to pioneer the science of safety. Everything from training itself, the fundamental research, came from us, the evaluations, the predeployment testing regime, the monitoring and control, and just this year, withholding our most frontier model at the time at great cost in order to deploy with defenders to ensure the world is safe. This is literally our our DNA. This is why I'm here. This is why my team and I wake up every morning. And I I could tell you for a long time about the... All the other parts of the all the other parts of the stack, but I hope that resonates." }, { "turn_id": 491, "start_sec": 19038.266, "end_sec": 19073.686, "start_hms": "05:17:18", "end_hms": "05:17:53", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Yep. Okay. I'm going to thank this panel for testifying. The council still has many questions that we feel we did not get answers to today. We will be sending each of the companies a list of these questions that we would like answers back in writing. But I thank the companies for being here today, answering the members' questions. And thanks, to the public for their patience. We're now going to transition to the next panel, which is the city administration, and we'll call on them right now. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Yep. Okay. I'm gonna thank this panel for testifying. The council still has many questions that we feel we did not get answers to today. We will be sending each of the companies a list of these questions that we would like answers back in writing. But I thank the companies for being here today, answering the members' questions. And thanks, to the public for their patience. We're now gonna transition to the next panel, which is the city administration, and we'll call on them right now. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 492, "start_sec": 19074.965, "end_sec": 19075.525, "start_hms": "05:17:54", "end_hms": "05:17:55", "speaker_name": "Logan Graham", "speaker_role": "Witness — Anthropic", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 16, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 493, "start_sec": 19080.21, "end_sec": 19084.451, "start_hms": "05:18:00", "end_hms": "05:18:04", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. Please remove them from the chamber. Thank you. We", "text_unedited": "Okay. Please remove them from the chamber. Thank you. We" }, { "turn_id": 494, "start_sec": 19084.77, "end_sec": 19089.81, "start_hms": "05:18:04", "end_hms": "05:18:09", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 32, "text_clean": "know that the companies are $80 billion with our iPhone. Okay.", "text_unedited": "know that the companies are $80,000,000,000 with our iPhone. Okay." }, { "turn_id": 495, "start_sec": 19090.451, "end_sec": 19116.96, "start_hms": "05:18:10", "end_hms": "05:18:36", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. You're in the phone. Now we will move on to hear from the administration. And today, we will hear from Sarah Milstein, deputy commissioner of strategic advisory services at OTI, CJ Dixon, head of the New York City Cyber Command, Benjamin Krakauer, first deputy commissioner of New York City Emergency Management Department and Sam Levine, commissioner of the New York City Department of Consumer and Worker Protection.", "text_unedited": "Okay. You're in the phone. Now we will move on to hear from the administration. And today, we will hear from Sarah Milstein, deputy commissioner of strategic advisory services at the... At OTI CJ Dixon, head of the New York City Cyber Command Benjamin Krakauer, first deputy commissioner of New York City Emergency Management Department and Sam Levine, commissioner of the New York City Department of Consumer and Worker Protection." }, { "turn_id": 496, "start_sec": 19128.254, "end_sec": 19141.28, "start_hms": "05:18:48", "end_hms": "05:19:01", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 24, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair. Please raise your right hands. Thank you. Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and respond honestly to council member questions?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. Please raise your right hands. Thank you. Deputy... Do you swear or affirm to tell the truth and respond honestly to council member questions?" }, { "turn_id": 497, "start_sec": 19142.078, "end_sec": 19143.84, "start_hms": "05:19:02", "end_hms": "05:19:03", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 53, "text_clean": "I do. Commissioner Sarah", "text_unedited": "I do. Commissioner Sarah" }, { "turn_id": 498, "start_sec": 19144.479, "end_sec": 19155.725, "start_hms": "05:19:04", "end_hms": "05:19:15", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 24, "text_clean": "Milstein? Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Head of Cyber Command, CJ Dixon? Yes. Thank you. Deputy commissioner Benjamin Krakauer?", "text_unedited": "Milstein? Yeah. Yes. Thank you. Head of Cyber Command, CJ Dixon? Yes. Thank you. Deputy commissioner Benjamin Krakauer?" }, { "turn_id": 499, "start_sec": 19156.924, "end_sec": 19157.805, "start_hms": "05:19:16", "end_hms": "05:19:17", "speaker_name": "Benjamin Krakauer", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Emergency Management", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 4, "text_clean": "I think so.", "text_unedited": "I think so." }, { "turn_id": 500, "start_sec": 19161.33, "end_sec": 19182.225, "start_hms": "05:19:21", "end_hms": "05:19:42", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 24, "text_clean": "Thank you. I just want to acknowledge that it was yes. And Commissioner Samuel Levine? Yes. Thank you very much. You can begin with your testimony. And Deputy Commissioner Carlos Ortiz. And, I apologize. And Deputy Commissioner Carlos Ortiz. I do. Thank you. You may begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I just wanna, acknowledge that it was yes. And commissioner Samuel Levine? Yes. Thank you very much. You can begin with your testimony. And deputy commissioner Carlos Ortiz. And, I apologize. And deputy commissioner Carlos Ortiz. I do. Thank you. You may begin." }, { "turn_id": 501, "start_sec": 19182.945, "end_sec": 19983.07, "start_hms": "05:19:42", "end_hms": "05:33:03", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Great. Good morning, Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa, and council members. My name is Sarah Milstein, and I'm the deputy commissioner for strategic advisory services for the Office of Technology and Innovation, OTI. I'm joined here today by my colleague, CJ Dixon, OTI's deputy commissioner of New York City Cyber Command and New York City's chief information security officer. I'm also joined by Samuel Levine, commissioner of the Department of Consumer and Worker Protection, DCWP, Carlos Ortiz, DCWP's chief of staff and deputy commissioner for external affairs, and Benjamin Krakauer, first deputy commissioner for New York City emergency management, NYCEM. In my role at OTI, I oversee both the Office of Algorithmic Accountability, OAA, and New York City Cyber Command. We appreciate that the council is holding this timely hearing about the risks of AI technology. Thank you, speaker, for getting representatives of the companies that develop, deploy, and sell AI tools to the general public to speak to the capabilities, limits, and risks associated with these systems at this hearing. As a representative of OTI, I'm here today to provide information to the Committee of the Whole about how we serve the city's technology and cyber defense needs and to address the proposed legislation that potentially impacts the administration. For those unfamiliar with our work, OTI's core mission is to use technology, data, and design to make the city work better for New Yorkers. We achieved this through a wide range of digital products, infrastructure, data systems, and shared expertise. In other words, we use technology to help agencies make every New Yorker's experience of city government better. For our discussion today, we can speak to the work we're doing around agency use of algorithmic tools and our cybersecurity program. To touch briefly on the AI arm of OTI, I'm pleased to share that the Office of Algorithmic Accountability, OAA, has been formally established and six new positions have been created in the FY27 adopted budget to staff it up. The hiring process for those roles is actively underway. The OAA's duties include analyzing algorithmic tools submitted by agencies to determine whether there is risk that the proposed tool could result in discriminatory decision making, conducting and publicly reporting on predeployment assessments, creating and maintaining a public facing platform for submission of comments, establishing a protocol with the Department of Investigation for receiving complaints from the public, promulgating rules establishing basic compliance standards that all agencies must meet in developing, procuring, deploying, and use a public impacting artificial intelligence, and reporting the results of predeployment assessments and audits conducted by the office. Overall, the office is progressing as planned, and we remain focused on building the capacity needed to carry out this work effectively. I will now turn to the legislation on today's docket that would impact OTI. Introduction 161 of 2026 would amend annual reporting on algorithmic tools to include their impact on city employment with a focus on potential changes to funded agency positions, salaries, and duties. OTI is currently undertaking a study on the impact of algorithmic tools on municipal employees pursuant to Local Law '25 of 2026. This study will provide insights into the extent to which algorithmic tools, including artificial intelligence, impacts city employees and the administration of their duties, including their hiring and work functions. While we agree that it is important to examine the impact of AI on our workforce, the bill as written would not produce new insights beyond those in the larger, more expansive directive of Local Law 25. The next three bills involve New York City Cyber Command. This office plays a vital role in protecting and defending the city and its residents from the impacts of cyber attacks. On a day to day basis, we provide 24/7 security services and assist agencies in bolstering their cyber maturity. We work collaboratively with agency partners as well as state, federal, and private entities to safeguard the essential services and data New Yorkers depend on daily. Our core mission is to make New York City the most cyber resilient city in the world, and we take this extremely seriously. New York City is a target for cyber attacks with a technology landscape that is unparalleled among other cities and states. This requires a unified comprehensive defense against constant cyber threats. Our key duties include setting information security policies and standards for the city, directing the city's citywide cyber defense and incident response, deploying defensive technical and administrative controls, and providing guidance to City Hall and agencies on cyber defense. In my fairly new role at OTI, it is a privilege to work with our staff and our agency partners in furtherance of this critical mission. New York City Cyber Command's alignment within OTI has placed the team in a strong position to monitor and respond to wide ranging cyber threats. Cybersecurity is continuous work. In my role, I'm confident we can continue to adapt to a constantly evolving threat landscape. Simply put, New York City Cyber Command has a 24/7 apparatus in place to defend the city systems from malicious attacks regardless of the origin. With that in mind, Preconsidered Introduction T2026-2602 would make it unlawful to market, offer for sale, sell, or deploy an artificial intelligence model in New York City that has not received third party validation or does not have a technical capability to be shut down by a human operator. The bill would require the director of the Office of Cyber Command to promulgate rules regarding what the third party validation, assessments, certifications, and disclosure would entail and the qualifications for third party validators. To be clear, Cyber Command's core mission is to defend the cities of New York's infrastructure from cyber attacks. We are not subject matter experts on the qualifications for an entity to be considered a third party validator. Further, neither OTI nor Cyber Command have experience regulating the private sector in the way that this legislation would require and neither would be the best choice to lead this regulatory regime for consumer products. We defer to DCWP to speak about the private sector policy and enforcement piece. To that end, DCWP supports the intent of this legislation. They recommend including robust record keeping requirements to better allow the agency to conduct affirmative enforcement. They also note based on conversations with advocates and sister agencies that the administration is not certain about the availability or ability of such businesses. We look forward to hearing from those stakeholders today, including on whether initiatives like this one could help spur a market for such services. Preconsidered Introduction T2026-2601 require the Office of Cyber Command to establish standards and procedures for contractors to identify the occurrence of a reportable AI safety incident. To take a step back, I'd like to lay out how AI risk and incidents are categorized according to the National Institute of Standards and Technology, NIST. AI under attack, AI cybersecurity incidents are traditional cybersecurity compromises where the AI system is the target. For example, data poisoning or jailbreaks. Misuse or malfunction, AI induced incidents, would be harms resulting from the use or failure of AI aside from a cyber compromise. In this category, the AI system itself behaves exactly as it was built or trained, but the real world outcome causes harm. These incidents are not cyberattacks. We understand the council's intent here given the publicized instances of AI systems operating outside the bounds of their intended use. As I noted earlier, the risk landscape is constantly evolving, and we are continuing to evolve our strategies to keep the city's infrastructure safe. But not all threats related to AI systems are necessarily cyber attacks, and the legislation as written does not address that. Cyber command would be a critical stakeholder in this discussion, but it is important to emphasize that we need to work with our state and federal partners to address these issues holistically. I also want to provide further context on breaches of security generally. Agency disclosure of a breach of security in any form is governed by Section 10-502 of the administrative code. There are extensive protocols for interagency coordination in the event of any breach of security. These protocols are aligned with the New York State Stop Hacks and Improve Electronic Data Security (SHIELD) Act. Current law policies and protocols are in place for incidents described in the legislation. Further, the threshold of 24-hour public notice is inconsistent with current law and would compromise the city's investigation of a cyber incident. Preconsidered Introduction T2026-2606 would require the Office of Cyber Command in coordination with NYCEM to develop or update an emergency response plan concerning AI system related threats to New York City's infrastructure, operations, public health, and welfare. I'd once again like to emphasize that there are laws, policies, and protocols in place for breaches and security regardless of actor. However, we are happy to discuss more broadly with council how we already coordinate with NYCEM to coordinate and engage with partners to restore services. Finally, I will provide DCWP's feedback on the remaining legislation that would impact the administration. Preconsidered Introduction T2026-2605 would allow any person to submit a complaint to DCWP alleging that a person or entity has violated certain provisions of law related to artificial intelligence. DCWP strongly supports the intent of this bill to establish a civilian enforcement structure for AI violations, especially given widespread reporting that concerns being raised by AI companies employees are being ignored. However, there are fiscal and operational concerns with the volume of complaints that the agency would receive and the resources and expertise required to handle each individual complaint. Therefore, the administration believes it would be important to coordinate closely with mission aligned enforcement agencies at the state level. The New York State Attorney General just recently announced its secure whistleblower portal for New Yorkers to report unsafe and illegal conduct related to AI technology. This could be an opportunity to partner on this existing program to more effectively enforce complaints on behalf of New Yorkers. Preconsidered Introduction T2026-2599 would impose requirements and restrictions on companies that provide chatbots, including requirements related to data security and privacy, the right of chatbot users to access their own data, and restrictions on how chatbot providers can use chatbot user data. DCWP has concerns about this bill. While we support council's goal to better regulate companies deployment of AI chatbots and believe the approach taken by this bill is sound, the implementation and enforcement of this bill's data security and privacy requirements would require a deep technical understanding and investigative ability that is outside of the agency's scope. To be clear, DCWP is committed to regulating harmful practices, including relating to chatbots that fall within the agency's investigative ability. To that end, the administration is working on rules related to the use of AI chatbots to better regulate the space for consumers. The administration has also invested in supporting the New York Attorney General in their efforts to rein in data abuses for which this bill may serve as a model. Preconsidered Introduction T2026-2603 would require any advertisement that promotes an artificial intelligence AI model in the city to disclose whether such a model has undergone validation by a third party. It also would prohibit any such advertisement from including any materially false or misleading statement regarding the safety of an AI model. DCWP supports this bill to require disclosure of third party validation of any advertisement of an AI model. However, as mentioned above, the administration is not certain about the availability or abilities of such businesses, and we want to be clear that any advertising that uses false or misleading statements is currently prohibited under the city's consumer protection law and will be enforced with the full scope of DCWP's authority. We look forward to working with counsel to ensure the law includes effective enforcement mechanisms and to continue addressing issues within DCWP's scope of work as it relates to AI. Thank you for the time. This panel will now take questions.", "text_unedited": "Great. Good morning, speaker Menon, chair De La Rosa, and council members. My name is Sarah Milstein, and I'm the deputy commissioner for strategic advisory services for the Office of Technology and Innovation, OTI. I'm joined here today by my colleague, CJ Dixon, OTI's deputy commissioner of New York City Cyber Command and New York City's chief information security officer. I'm also joined by Samuel Levine, commissioner of the Department of Consumer Affairs and Worker Protection, DCWP Carlos Ortiz, DCWP's chief of staff and deputy commissioner for external affairs and Benjamin Krakauer, first deputy commissioner for New York City emergency management, Nyssen. In my role at OTI, I oversee both both the Office of Algorithmic Accountability, OAA, and New York City Cyber Command. We appreciate that the council is holding this timely hearing about the risks of AI technology. Thank you, speaker, for getting representatives of the companies that develop, deploy, and sell AI tools to the general public to speak to the capabilities, limits, and risks associated with these systems at this hearing. As a representative of OTI, I'm here today to provide information to the Committee of the Whole about how we serve the city's technology and cyber defense needs and to address the proposed legislation that potentially impacts the administration. For those unfamiliar with our work, OTI's core mission is to use technology, data, and design to make the city work better for New Yorkers. We achieved this through a wide range of digital products, infrastructure, data systems, and shared expertise. In other words, we use technology to help agencies make every New Yorker's experience of city government better. For our discussion today, we can speak to the work we're doing around agency use of algorithmic tools and our cybersecurity program. To touch briefly on the AI arm of OTI, I'm pleased to share that the office the office of algorithmic accountability, OAA, has been formally established and six new positions have been created in the f y twenty seven adopted budget to staff it up. The hiring process for those roles is actively underway. The OAA's duties include analyzing algorithmic tools submitted by agencies to determine whether there is risk that the proposed tool could result in discriminatory decision making, conducting and publicly reporting on predeployment assessments, creating and maintaining a public facing platform for submission of comments, establishing a protocol with the Department of Investigation for receiving complaints from the public, promulgating rules establishing basic compliance standards that all agencies must meet in developing, procuring, deploying, and use a public impacting artificial intelligence, and reporting the results of predeployment assessments and audits conducted by the office. Overall, the office is progressing as planned, and we remain focused on building the capacity needed to carry out this work effectively. I will now turn to the legislation on today's docket that would impact OTI. Introduction one six one of 2026 would amend annual reporting on algorithmic tools to include their impact on city employment with a focus on potential changes to funded agency positions, salaries, and duties. OTI is currently undertaking a study on the impact of algorithmic tools on municipal employees pursuant to local law '25 of 2026. This study will provide insights into the extent to which algorithmic tools, including artificial intelligence, impacts city employees and the administration of their duties, including their hiring and work functions. While we agree that it is important to examine the impact of AI on our workforce, the bill as written would not produce new insights beyond those in the larger, more expansive directive of local law 25. The next three bills involve New York City Cyber Command. This office plays a vital role in protecting and defending the city and its residents from the impacts of cyber attacks. On a day to day basis, we provide twenty four seven security services and assist agencies in bolstering their cyber maturity. We work collaboratively with agency partners as well as state, federal, and private entities to safeguard the essential services and data New Yorkers depend on daily. Our core mission is to make New York City the most cyber resilient city in the world, and we take this extremely seriously. New York City is a target for cyber attacks with a technology landscape that is unparalleled among other cities and states. This requires a unified comprehensive defense against constant cyber threats. Our key duties include setting information security policies and standards for the city, directing the city's citywide cyber defense and incident response, deploying defensive technical and administrative controls, and providing guidance to city hall and agencies on cyber defense. In my fairly new role at OTI, it is a privilege to work with our staff and our agency partners in furtherance of this critical mission. New York City Cyber Command's alignment within OTI has placed the team in a strong position to monitor and respond to wide ranging cyber threats. Cybersecurity is continuous work. In my role, I'm confident we can continue to adapt to a constantly evolving threat landscape. Simply put, New York City Cyber Command has a twenty four seven apparatus in place to defend the city systems from malicious attacks regardless of the origin. With that in mind, preconsidered introduction of twenty twenty six two six zero two would make it unlawful to market, offer for sale, sell, or deploy an artificial model... An artificial intelligence model in the New York... In New York City that has not received third party validation or does not have a technical capability to be shut down by a human operator. The bill would require the director of the Office of Cyber Command to promulgate rules regarding what the third party valid... What the third party validation, assessments, certifications, and disclosure would entail and the qualifications for third party validators. To be clear, Cyber Command's core mission is to defend the cities of New York's infrastructure from cyber attacks. We are not subject matter experts on the qualifications for an entity to be to be considered a third party validator. Further, nor... Neither an OT... OTI nor Cyber Command have experience relegating... Regulating the private sector in the way that this legislation would require and neither would be the best choice to lead this regulatory regime for consumer products. We defer to DCWP to speak about the private sector policy and enforcement piece. To that end, DCWP supports the intent of this legislation. They recommend including robust record keeping requirements to better allow the agency to conduct affirmative enforcement. They also note based on conversations with advocates and sister agencies that the administration is not certain about the availability or ability of such businesses. We look forward to hearing from those stakeholders today, including on whether initiatives like this one could help spur a market for such services. Preconsidered introduction of twenty twenty six two six zero one require the Office of Cyber Command to establish standards and procedures for contractors to identify the occurrence of a reportable AI safety incident. To take a step back, I'd like to lay out how AI risk and incidents are categorized according to the National Institute for Standards and Technology, NIST. Under a... AI under attack, AI cybersecurity incidents are traditional cybersecurity compromises where the AI system is the target. For example, data poisoning or jailbreaks. Misuse or malfunction, AI induced incidents, would be harms resulting from the use or failure of AI aside from a cyber compromise. In this category, the AI system itself behaves exactly as it was built or trained, but the real world outcome causes harm. These incidents are not cyberattacks. We understand the council's intent here given the publicized incidents... Instances of AI systems operating outside the bounds of their intended use. As I noted earlier, the risk landscape is constantly evolving, and we are continuing to evolve our strategies to keep the city's infrastructure safe. But not all threats related to ace... AI systems are necessarily cyber attacks, and the legislation as written does not address that. Cyber command would be a critical stakeholder in this discussion, but it is important to emphasize that we need to work with our state and federal partners to address these issues holistically. I also wanna provide further context on breaches of security generally. Agency disclosure of a breach of security in any form is governed by section ten five zero two of the administrative code. There are extensive protocols for interagency coordination in the event of any breach of security. These protocols are aligned with the New York State Stop Hacks and Improve Electronic Data Security Shield Act. Current law policies and protocols are in place for incidents described in the legislation. Further, the threshold of twenty four hour public notice is inconsistent with current law and would compromise the city's investigation of a cyber incident. Preconsidered introduction of twenty twenty six two six zero six would require the office of cyber command in coordination with NISM to develop or update an emergency response plan concerning AI system related threats to New York City's infrastructure, operations, public health, and welfare. I'd once again like to emphasize that there are laws, policies, and protocols in place for breaches and security regardless of actor. However, we are happy to discuss more broadly with council how we already coordinate with NISM to coordinate and engage with partners to restore services. Finally, I will provide DCWP's feedback on the remaining legislation that would impact the administration. Preconsidered introduction to 2026, two six zero five, would allow any person to submit a complaint to DCWP alleging that a person or entity has violated certain provisions of law related to artificial intelligence. DCWP strongly supports the intent of the... This bill to establish a civilian enforcement structure for AI violations, especially given widespread reporting that concerns being raised by AI companies employees are being ignored. However, there are fiscal and operational concerns with the volume of complaints that the agency would receive and the resources and expertise required to handle each individual complaint. Therefore, the administration believes it would be important to coordinate closely with mission aligned enforcement agencies at the state level. The New York state attorney general just recently announced its secure whistleblower portal for New Yorkers to report unsafe and illegal conduct related to AI technology. This could be an opportunity to partner on this existing program to more effectively enforce complaints on behalf of New Yorkers. Preconsidered introduction twenty twenty six two five nine nine would impose requirements and restrictions on companies that provide chatbots, including requirements related to data security and privacy, the right of chatbot users to access their own data, and restrictions on how chatbot providers can use chatbot user data. DCWP has concerns about this bill. While we support council's goal to better regulate companies deployment of AI chatbots and believe the approach taken by this bill is sound, the implementation and enforcement of this bill's data security and privacy requirements would require a deep technical understanding and investigative ability that is outside of the agency's scope. To be clear, DCWP is committed to regulating harmful practices, including relating to chatbots that fall within the agency's investigative ability. To that end, the administration is working on rules related... On rules related to the use of AI chatbots to better regulate the space for consumers. The administration has also invested in supporting the attorney general... The New York attorney general in their efforts to rein in data abuses for which this bill may serve as a model. Preconsidered introduction of twenty twenty six two six zero three would require any advertisement that promotes an artificial intelligence AI model in the city to disclose whether such a model has undergone validation by a third party. It also would prohibit any such advertisement from including any material... Any materially false or misleading statement regarding the safety of an AI model. DCWP supports this bill to require disclosure of third party validation of any advertisement of an AI model. However, as mentioned above, the administration is not certain about the availability or abilities of such businesses, and we want to be clear that any advertising that uses false or misleading statements is currently prohibited under the city's consumer protection law and will be enforced with the full scope of DCWP's authority. We look forward to working with counsel to ensure the law includes effective enforcement mechanisms and to continue addressing issues within DCWP's scope of work as it relates to AI. Thank you for the time. This panel will now take questions." }, { "turn_id": 502, "start_sec": 19983.23, "end_sec": 20020.225, "start_hms": "05:33:03", "end_hms": "05:33:40", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Great. Thank you so much for your testimony. We appreciate it. I've got a number of questions. So OpenAI sent the City Council a letter on October 1 recommending that New York City better connect its existing cyber and emergency management capabilities, and I'm just reading from the letter, with the escalation, containment, and recovery capabilities of frontier AI companies. So has the city of New York this year met with OpenAI, Anthropic, or any other frontier AI company to discuss how the city would coordinate with them in the event of a serious AI related cyber or public safety incident?", "text_unedited": "Great. Thank you so much for your testimony. We appreciate it. I've got a number of questions. So OpenAI sent the city council a letter on October 1 recommending that New York City better connect its existing cyber and emergency management capabilities, and I'm gonna... Just reading from the letter, with the escalation, containment, and recovery capabilities of frontier AI companies. So has the city of New York this year met with OpenAI, Anthropic, or any other frontier AI company to discuss how the city would coordinate with them in the event of a serious AI related cyber or public safety incident?" }, { "turn_id": 503, "start_sec": 20027.96, "end_sec": 20031.96, "start_hms": "05:33:47", "end_hms": "05:33:51", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question. I'm going to defer to my colleague, CJ Dixon.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the question. I'm going to defer to my colleague, CJ Dixon." }, { "turn_id": 504, "start_sec": 20032.6, "end_sec": 20080.375, "start_hms": "05:33:52", "end_hms": "05:34:40", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Thank you. So I would like to note that New York City Cyber Command follows the NIST cybersecurity framework for all of our cyber programming that is everything from identify, protect, detect, respond, and recover. The basic first principles in cybersecurity have not changed even with the advent of artificial intelligence. And we have been in conversations with various frontier models about how we may integrate their tools and software to better enhance the functions that we already deliver to the city. So in reference to your question, yes, we have been in conversation with the frontier AI companies to enhance the way that we perform cybersecurity. However, those basic cybersecurity controls have functionally remained the same. So you've met with OpenAI and Anthropic in particular? We have met with Anthropic. I have not met with OpenAI since coming on board on May 5.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. So I would like to note that New York City Cyber Command follows the NIST cybersecurity framework for all of our cyber programming that is everything from identify, protect, detect, respond, and recover. The basic first principles in cybersecurity have not changed even with the advent of artificial intelligence. And we have been in conversations with various frontier models about how we may integrate their tools and software to to better enhance the functions that we already deliver to the city. So in reference to your question, yes, we have been in conversation with the frontier AI companies to enhance the way that we perform cybersecurity. However, those basic cybersecurity controls have functionally remained the same. So you've met with OpenAI and Anthropic in particular? We have met with Anthropic. I have not met with OpenAI since coming on board on May 5." }, { "turn_id": 505, "start_sec": 20081.094, "end_sec": 20084.295, "start_hms": "05:34:41", "end_hms": "05:34:44", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Are you planning on meeting with OpenAI?", "text_unedited": "Okay. Are you planning on meeting with OpenAI?" }, { "turn_id": 506, "start_sec": 20085.701, "end_sec": 20096.422, "start_hms": "05:34:45", "end_hms": "05:34:56", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Only dependent on our needs right now. We do not know definitively if there is a valid reason for us to meet with any frontier", "text_unedited": "Only based on a... Only dependent on our needs right now. We do not know definitively if there is a valid reason for us to meet with any frontier" }, { "turn_id": 507, "start_sec": 20096.5, "end_sec": 20127.385, "start_hms": "05:34:56", "end_hms": "05:35:27", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "AI company in the service concerned of by the statement that nothing has changed in your protocols given that we're now dealing with a rapidly escalating technology that as we certainly heard today and we've been hearing now for the last couple weeks to months that there are serious safety concerns. So I just want to get an answer in terms of what proactive steps is cybersecurity taking to meet with some of these frontier companies and ensure that our systems are safe.", "text_unedited": "AI company in the service concerned of by the statement that nothing has changed in your protocols given that we're now dealing with a rapidly escalating technology that as we certainly heard today and we've been hearing now for the last couple weeks to months that there are serious safety concerns. So I just wanna get an answer in terms of what proactive steps is cybersecurity taking to meet with some of these frontier companies and ensure that our systems are safe." }, { "turn_id": 508, "start_sec": 20127.785, "end_sec": 20155.41, "start_hms": "05:35:27", "end_hms": "05:35:55", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Acknowledged. It does not mean that we have not changed our protocols. Some of the risks in hand with artificial intelligence are unrelated to cybersecurity. In those situations where an AI model presents a cybersecurity risk, those AI models will still exploit the exact same software vulnerabilities that are inherent in computer technology as they've always been. So our protocols have not had to change to address the fundamental issues", "text_unedited": "Acknowledged. And we... It does not mean that we have not changed our protocols. Some of the risks in hand with artificial intelligence are unrelated to cybersecurity. In those situations where an AI model presents a cybersecurity risk, those AI models will still exploit the exact same software vulnerabilities that are inherent in computer technology as they've always been. So our protocols have not had to change to address the fundamental issues" }, { "turn_id": 509, "start_sec": 20155.725, "end_sec": 20214.691, "start_hms": "05:35:55", "end_hms": "05:36:54", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "inherent in computer technology, only the speed by which we must react in a cyber attack? Okay. I am concerned by news that city and state reported on Friday that the AI czar, Jaihao Chen, who is our chief technology officer, resigned, I think, a week to week and a half ago and reports saying that he resigned in frustration that a lot of positions were being not hired or being held up by OMB. And that relates to my second question, which is Council Member Gutiérrez. I think she's still here. Yes. And I, passed bills last year to create the Office of Algorithmic Accountability. And so it appears that Mr. Chen's resignation from what we're reading in the press was related to that and the fact that office was supposed to be up and running by the city in June, but it is not up and running. And in fact, in your testimony, you said you're now posting for the positions. It's now October.", "text_unedited": "inherent in computer technology, only the speed by which we must react in a cyber attack? Okay. I I am concerned by news that city and state reported on Friday that the AI czar, Jaihao Chen, who is our chief technology officer, resigned, I think, a week to week and a half ago and reports saying that he resigned in frustration that a lot of positions were being not hired or being held up by OMB. And that relates to my second question, which is council member Gutierrez. I think she's still here. Yes. And I, passed bills last year to create the office of algorithmic accountability. And so it appears that mister Chen's resignation from what we're reading in the press was related to that and the fact that that office was supposed to be up and running by the city in June, but it is not up and running. And in fact, in your testimony, you said you're now posting for the positions. It's now October." }, { "turn_id": 510, "start_sec": 20216.254, "end_sec": 20275.275, "start_hms": "05:36:56", "end_hms": "05:37:55", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question, speaker. Ji Hao Chen served as director of AI and ML at OTI for two and a half years. He did important work in the previous administration to help define and understand AI use throughout the city. He's been very helpful in getting new OTI administration up to speed, and we wish him the best. We are very excited, to be staffing up OAA. The law went into effect in December. I was brought in this summer to help stand up the office. We got funding in June in the FY27 budget, and we've been actively working to hire for the roles, for the director role for OAA and look forward to announcing something quite soon. We're really, grateful to the council for having stood up, for having helped us stand this up. I think the work is going to be excellent.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the the question, speaker. Ji Hao Chen served as director of AI and ML at OTA... At OTI for two and a half years. He did important work in the previous administration to help define and understand AI use throughout the city. He's been very helpful in getting new OTI administration up to speed, and we wish him the best. We are very excited, to be staffing up OAA. I... The the law went into effect in December. I was brought in this summer to help stand up the office. We got funding in June for... In the f y twenty seven budget, and we've been actively working to hire for the roles, for the director role for OAA and look forward to announcing something quite soon. We're really, grateful to the council for having stood up, for having helped us stand this up. I think the work is gonna be excellent." }, { "turn_id": 511, "start_sec": 20275.436, "end_sec": 20316.041, "start_hms": "05:37:55", "end_hms": "05:38:36", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "It just seems that this is an inopportune time for his resignation, and I am concerned that the office was under Council Member Gutiérrez's bill, supposed to be up and running in June. In addition, the companion bill, which was my bill, which we passed a year ago, required OTI to engage in rule making around this Office of Algorithmic Accountability. But OTI did no rule making whatsoever, so it did not comply with that bill. Instead, OTI issued updated guidance, ignored the rule making process. There's been no proposed rule, no public hearing, no public comment period, and no adoption into the rules of the city Of New York.", "text_unedited": "It just seems that this is an inopportune time for his resignation, and I am concerned that the office was under council member Gutierrez's bill, supposed to be up and running in June. In addition, the companion bill, which was my bill, which we passed a year ago, required OTI to engage in rule making around this office of algorithmic accountability. But no... OTI did no rule making whatsoever, so it did not comply with that bill. Instead, OTI issued updated guidance, ignored the rule making process. There's been no proposed rule, no public hearing, no public comment period, and no adoption into the rules of the city Of New York." }, { "turn_id": 512, "start_sec": 20317.48, "end_sec": 20400.451, "start_hms": "05:38:37", "end_hms": "05:40:00", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you for the question, speaker. So OTI is fully compliant with the law. The rulemaking piece of the law, had us, this year, submit the initial, I don't want to say paperwork, but the initial points for our rulemaking and the actual rulemaking will happen in this fiscal year. We are also, fully compliant with Local Law 35, which was brought under the office of OAA as part of the December 25 law. We've been in the process of fulfilling that report for five years. We've done it on time for five years in a row. That's the law that requires agencies to disclose their use of public impacting algorithmic tools. And we're on track now for on time reporting for March 2027. So we're really excited actually with doing that work. Very proud of it. We just last week sent out the email to all of the city agencies to kick off this reporting cycle and are holding on this Thursday the orientation meeting that gets everybody rolling.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you for the the question, speaker. So OTI is fully compliant with the law. The rulemaking piece of the law, had us, this year, submit the initial the initial, I don't wanna say paperwork, but the initial points for our rulemaking and the actual rulemaking will happen in this fiscal year. We are also, fully compliant with local law 35, which was brought under the office of OAA as part of the December 25 law. We've been in the process of, fulfilling that report for five years. We've done it on time for five years in a row. That's the law that requires agencies to, disclose their use of public impacting algorithmic tools. And we're on track now for, on time reporting for March 2027. So we're really excited actually with doing that work. Very proud of it. We just last week sent out the email to, all of the city agencies to kick off this reporting cycle and are holding on this Thursday the orientation meeting that gets everybody rolling." }, { "turn_id": 513, "start_sec": 20400.611, "end_sec": 20425.266, "start_hms": "05:40:00", "end_hms": "05:40:25", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. I mean, just to clarify for the record, we don't believe that's in compliance at all. The office was supposed to be up and running in June. I'm sure Council Member Gutiérrez will talk about her bill, the office was not up and running in June and was supposed to do the rulemaking. When do you feel then the Law Department will... You've mentioned Law Department. Can we expect to actually see the rulemaking? This is in the March 2027 deadline?", "text_unedited": "Okay. I mean, just to clarify for the record, that... We don't believe it... That's in compliance at all. The office was supposed to be up and running in June. I'm sure council member Gutierrez will talk about her bill, the office was not up and running in June and was supposed to do the rulemaking. When do you feel then the law department will be... Will... You've mentioned law department. When will... Can we expect to actually see the rulemaking? This is in the March 27 deadline?" }, { "turn_id": 514, "start_sec": 20425.266, "end_sec": 20426.66, "start_hms": "05:40:25", "end_hms": "05:40:26", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Okay.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Okay." }, { "turn_id": 515, "start_sec": 20427.139, "end_sec": 20443.174, "start_hms": "05:40:27", "end_hms": "05:40:43", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "So what safeguards are currently in place to prevent, city employees from entering, confidential private city data, whether authorized or unauthorized, into AI systems such as Copilot that are being controlled by outside corporations?", "text_unedited": "So what safeguards are currently in place to prevent, city employees from entering, confidential private city data, whether authorized or unauthorized, into AI systems such as Co Pilot that are being controlled by outside corporations?" }, { "turn_id": 516, "start_sec": 20445.014, "end_sec": 20482.656, "start_hms": "05:40:45", "end_hms": "05:41:22", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question. Our contract with Microsoft, which runs Copilot Chat, prevents them from using city worker data to train their models. And the way they host data for us also is ensures that we're HIPAA compliant, CJIS compliant, that the data is kept, carefully and securely, that there isn't risk of the data being", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the question. Our contract with Microsoft, which runs Co Pilot Chat, prevents them from using city worker data in... To train their models. And the the way they host data for us also is ensures that we're HIPAA compliant, CRISP compliant, that the the data is is kept, carefully and securely, that there isn't risk of the data being" }, { "turn_id": 517, "start_sec": 20482.91, "end_sec": 20494.67, "start_hms": "05:41:22", "end_hms": "05:41:34", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "leaked either to Microsoft or to the public. So you can confidently say that no private or confidential city data has ever been obtained by an AI company and then used to train an AI model?", "text_unedited": "leaked either to Microsoft or to the public. So you can confidently say that no private or confidential Citi data has ever been obtained by an AI company and then used to train an AI model?" }, { "turn_id": 518, "start_sec": 20496.535, "end_sec": 20506.535, "start_hms": "05:41:36", "end_hms": "05:41:46", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question. I'm confident that our agreements with Microsoft, prevent them from taking such actions.", "text_unedited": "I'm... Thank you for the question. I'm confident that our agreements with Microsoft, prevent them from from taking such actions." }, { "turn_id": 519, "start_sec": 20506.695, "end_sec": 20512.97, "start_hms": "05:41:46", "end_hms": "05:41:52", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Is OTI currently measure the impact that AI tools are having on the city's workforce?", "text_unedited": "And does... Is OTI currently measure the impact that AI tools are having on the city's workforce?" }, { "turn_id": 520, "start_sec": 20513.611, "end_sec": 20535.756, "start_hms": "05:41:53", "end_hms": "05:42:15", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. Per Local Law 12/25/2025, we are engaged in a workforce study to understand the impact of algorithmic tools on city workers and automated, employment decision tools. And we will have results from that to share next year.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. We... Per local law 12/25/2025, we are engaged in a a workforce study to understand the impact of algorithmic tools on city workers and automated, employment decision tools. And we, will be having... We will have results from that to share next year." }, { "turn_id": 521, "start_sec": 20536.076, "end_sec": 20544.77, "start_hms": "05:42:16", "end_hms": "05:42:24", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Alright. I'm going to pass it over to Chair De La Rosa. Thank you. Thank you so much. And just continuing on that same question,", "text_unedited": "Okay. Alright. I'm gonna pass it over to chair De La Rosa. Thank you. Thank you so much. And just continuing on on that same question," }, { "turn_id": 522, "start_sec": 20545.01, "end_sec": 20618.955, "start_hms": "05:42:25", "end_hms": "05:43:38", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "you all testified that my bill, 161, basically does the same thing as Local Law 25. One, we look forward to seeing the report. Local Law 25, to my knowledge, requires a onetime report that's going to come out of that study. 161 is more comprehensive and is requiring that report to be updated yearly. And as this and as this technology is evolving, in my opinion, hence why I put the bill forward more consistent reporting is going to be needed, especially as we begin to see how the workforce is impacted. Before I was a technology chair, I was the labor chair. We have a wonderful labor chair in the house, and I'm grateful to her leadership. But this is an issue that impacts not only organized labor, but I also see it as an issue where we're leading, the nation, really, in how the workforce will, react to this evolving technology. And so is there anything that you can share with us right now on where the workforce is and what those impacts will look like? I know you're working on the study, but is there anything you can give us forthcoming?", "text_unedited": "you all testified that my legislation... My bill one six one basically does the same thing as local law 25. One, we look forward to seeing the report. Local law 25, to my knowledge, requires a onetime report that's gonna come out of that study. One sixty one is more comprehensive and is requiring that report to be updated yearly. And as this and as this technology is evolving, in my opinion, hence why I put the bill forward, you know, more consistent reporting is going to be needed, especially as we begin to see how the workforce is impacted. Before I was a technology chair, I was the labor chair. We have a wonderful labor chair in the house, and I'm grateful to her leadership. But this is an issue that impacts not only organized labor, but I also see it as an issue where we're leading, the nation, really, in how the workforce will, react to this evolving technology. And so is there anything that you can share with us right now on where the workforce is and what those impacts will look like? I know you're working on the study, but is there anything you can give us forthcoming?" }, { "turn_id": 523, "start_sec": 20620.621, "end_sec": 20655.23, "start_hms": "05:43:40", "end_hms": "05:44:15", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question, council member. So the initial stages of the report are in part about determining how we even define impact. It's a it's a pretty broad term and could mean many different things. So we're in the phase of determining that now so that we're able to produce a report that's really meaningful for city workers. We certainly support the intent of your bill, and I would be interested in further conversation about the annual nature of the reporting.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the question, council member. So the initial stages of the report are in part about determining how we even define impact. It's a it's a pretty broad term and could mean many different things. So we're in this... The phase of determining that now so that we're able to produce a report that's really meaningful for city workers. I... We certainly support the intent of your bill, and I would be interested in further conversation about the annual nature of the reporting." }, { "turn_id": 524, "start_sec": 20655.709, "end_sec": 20754.215, "start_hms": "05:44:15", "end_hms": "05:45:54", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "I appreciate that. Some of the information that we're looking for example, is, I think, an important question. How many funded agency positions, for example, will be eliminated due to the use of these tools? The agency vacancies has been something that this council has really been looking at especially as we look at civil service reform across the board and bringing people into municipal service. So we do want to understand sort of displacement and what that looks like for the workforce. We want to also understand reduction of hours over time, which this council has not been shy about questioning past administrations and present administrations about. We also want to know about subcontractors. Right? There's a ton of city contracts that are in play right now and want to know what the impacts are. So I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all and building on what we will see from the report of Local Law 25. I also want to say that while my bill doesn't specifically speak to worker protections, this council does believe that worker protections are important, especially as we look at that displacement and what could happen. Right? We just questioned the companies for the better part of the day about whistleblower protections and what happens when this technology gets out of control. So we want to understand how those protections are also extended to municipal workers. Do you have anything in place right now that protects our city's workforce?", "text_unedited": "I appreciate that. Some of the information that we're looking for, for example, is, I think, an important question. How many funded agency positions, for example, will be eliminated due to the use of of these tools? The agency vacancies has been something that this council has really been looking at, especially as we look at civil service reform across the board and bringing people into municipal service. So, you know, we do wanna understand sort of displacement and what that looks like for the workforce. We wanna also understand reduction of hours over time, which this council has not been shy about questioning the administrations... Past administrations and present administrations about. We also wanna know about subcontractors. Right? There's a ton of city contracts that are in play right now and wanna know what the impacts are. So I look forward to continuing this conversation with you all and building on, you know, what we will see from the report of local law 25. I also wanna say that while my bill doesn't specifically speak to worker protections, this council does believe that worker protections are important, especially as we look at that displacement and and what could happen. Right? We we just questioned the companies for the better part of the day about whistleblower protections and what happens when this technology gets out of control. So we wanna understand how those protections are also extended to municipal workers. Do you have anything in place right now that protects our city's workforce?" }, { "turn_id": 525, "start_sec": 20754.775, "end_sec": 20821.67, "start_hms": "05:45:54", "end_hms": "05:47:01", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yes. Thank you for the question. Because this is a little technical, I want to make sure I get exactly the right, information, which is that the, New York State civil Service Law section eighty ten establishes a moratorium on discharge, displacement, or the transfer of existing duties and functions currently performed by employees of the New York City and the New York City school district to an artificial intelligence system until 2028. The Civil Service Law also stipulates that the use of AI shall not alter existing collective bargaining rights, terms of employment, or civil service status. Further, collective bargaining agreements may offer employment protections beyond 2028. So with that law in place, we have a little bit of time, and we really appreciate the intent of this law and the fact that it gives us in New York City a little bit of time to figure out, how we understand the potential for displacements, for deskilling, for the use of subcontractors", "text_unedited": "Yes. Thank you for the question. Because this is a little technical, I wanna make sure I get exactly the right, information, which is that the, New York State civil, civil service law section eighty ten establishes a moratorium on discharge, displacement, or the transfer of existing duties and functions currently performed by employees of the New York City and the New York City school district to an artificial intelligence system until 2028. The civil service law also stipulates that the use of AI shall not alter existing collective bargaining rights, terms of employment, or civil service status. Further, collective bargaining agreements may offer employment protections beyond 2028. So with that law in place, we have a little bit of time, and we really appreciate the intent of this law and the fact that it gives us in New York City a little bit of time to figure out, how we how we understand the potential for displacements, for deskilling, for the use of subcontractors" }, { "turn_id": 526, "start_sec": 20821.67, "end_sec": 20853.52, "start_hms": "05:47:01", "end_hms": "05:47:33", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "that might be, displacing other city workers and the sorts of things you were raising. So I really appreciate that question. Great. So we'll continue that conversation. I also want to give you a preview. I have a bill that creates a civil service title for AI within our city agencies. And one of the things that I'm curious about is like, this interagency communication around AI. Can you speak to us where are you right now when it comes to each of the city agencies and evaluating where the agencies are in terms of the use of AI, internally?", "text_unedited": "that might be, displacing other city workers and the sorts of things you were raising. So I really appreciate that question. Great. So we'll continue that conversation. I also wanna give you a preview. I have a bill that creates a civil service title for AI within our city agencies. And one of the things that I'm curious about is, like, this interagency communication around AI. Can you speak to us where are you right now when it comes to each of the city agencies and evaluating where the agencies are in terms of the use of AI, internally?" }, { "turn_id": 527, "start_sec": 20854.4, "end_sec": 20896.475, "start_hms": "05:47:34", "end_hms": "05:48:16", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yes. Thank you for the question. So one of the privileges that we have at OTI as the agency that runs the reporting for Local Law 35 is that we learn from agencies throughout the city how they are using algorithmic tools that have, direct public impact. And in the process of collecting that data, we have a fair amount of contact with agencies to be able to learn more, and to establish relationships with them so that we can also serve as advisers to them and understand their challenges as this technology unfolds. In the last cycle last year, we had 56 agencies participating.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Thank you for the question. So one of the privileges that we have at OTI as, the agency that runs the reporting for local law 35 is that we learn from agencies throughout the city how they are using algorithmic tools that have, direct public impact. And in the process of collecting that data, we have a fair amount of contact with agencies to be able to learn more, and to establish relationships with them so that we can also serve as advisers to them and, understand their challenges as this technology unfolds. In the last cycle last year, we had 56 agencies participating." }, { "turn_id": 528, "start_sec": 20897.596, "end_sec": 20968.932, "start_hms": "05:48:17", "end_hms": "05:49:28", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Our first hearing as technology chair was around surveillance. And one of the things that we pretty much grew these companies about was about self regulation. And I think from the tone and tenure of this council, we don't believe in self regulation. However, we've given the grace to our city agencies to self report the use of AI. I want to ask you, and I understand that OTI is not an agency that's going to impose penalties on other agencies for not reporting. But there is a specific concern that my colleagues and I have around self reporting, especially when it comes to the NYPD's reporting of surveillance technologies. This council has had many hearings on that. I wonder under the Office of Algorithmic Accountability, what accountability tools will be put in place to make sure that we are properly regulating the use of surveillance technology in the NYPD and other technology. This council held a hearing just in June around the Department of Education and the use of AI. So what are some of those tools that we can look forward to seeing? Yeah. Thank you for that question, council member.", "text_unedited": "Our first hearing as technology chair was around surveillance. And one of the things that we pretty much grew these companies about was about self regulation. And I think from the tone and tenure of this council, we don't believe in self regulation. However, we've given the grace to our city agencies to self report the use of AI. I wanna ask you, and I understand that OTI is not an agency that's gonna impose penalties on other agencies for not reporting. But there is a specific concern that my colleagues and I have around self reporting, especially when it comes to the NYPD's reporting of surveillance technologies. This council has had many hearings on that. I I wonder, you know, under the office of algorithmic accountability, what accountability tools will be put in place to make sure that we are properly regulating the use of surveillance technology in the NYPD and other technology. You know, this council held a hearing just in June around the Department of Education and the use of AI. So what are some of those tools that we can look forward to seeing? Yeah. Thank you for that question, council member." }, { "turn_id": 529, "start_sec": 20969.81, "end_sec": 21015.016, "start_hms": "05:49:29", "end_hms": "05:50:15", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "So in advance of having full time staff at OAA, we have been doing research to understand some of the types of risk assessment and risk management that organizations like ours can do in a situation where self reporting is what we have been relying on. We're a little bit early to say how we would implement that in the city, but we are very actively hiring for a director who understands that set of problems and can help us figure out how we come up with effective risk assessment and management that includes, a view into city agencies perhaps beyond self reporting.", "text_unedited": "So in advance of having full time staff at OAA, we have been doing research to understand some of the, types of risk assess... Risk, assessment and risk management that organizations like ours can do in a situation where self reporting is what we have been relying on. We're a little bit early to say how we would implement that in the city, but, we are very actively hiring for a director who understands that set of problems and can help us figure out how we come up with effective risk assessment and management that includes, a view into city agencies perhaps beyond self reporting." }, { "turn_id": 530, "start_sec": 21015.576, "end_sec": 21036.775, "start_hms": "05:50:15", "end_hms": "05:50:36", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you for that answer. And, of course, we will continue that conversation. Absolutely. I did want to ask you, how prepared would you say we are for enterprise security system for autonomous AI driven attacks? Not just attacks by human, but AI autonomous attacks. How prepared do you all feel we are as a city?", "text_unedited": "Thank you for that answer. And, of course, we will continue that conversation. Absolutely. I did wanna ask you, how, how prepared would you say we are, for enterprise security system for autonomous AI driven attacks? Not just attacks by human, but AI autonomous attacks. How prepared do you all feel we are as a city?" }, { "turn_id": 531, "start_sec": 21037.016, "end_sec": 21040.215, "start_hms": "05:50:37", "end_hms": "05:50:40", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. I'll let CJ Dixon answer that.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. I'll let CJ Dixon answer that." }, { "turn_id": 532, "start_sec": 21041.096, "end_sec": 21083.86, "start_hms": "05:50:41", "end_hms": "05:51:23", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "And that is a great question. And I will acknowledge that this is a very dynamic environment. It is always changing that's just the nature of technology. New York City Cyber Command, however, provides 24/7 detection and response capabilities through our 24/7 security operation center. We have provided that service to the city since the establishment of New York City Cyber Command. We provide that service whether or not the attacker is human or an artificial intelligence based attacker. That attacker would still attack the exact same vulnerabilities in the system, and therefore, we would still respond functionally in the same manner. We would just have to do it faster. We continue to evolve with the technology, and we will continue to do so with the best of our ability as the technology continues to evolve.", "text_unedited": "And that is a great question. And and I will acknowledge that this is a very dynamic environment. It is always changing that's just the nature of technology. New York City Cyber Command, however, provides 24 by seven detection and response capabilities through our 24 by seven security operation center. We have provided that service to the city since the establishment of New York City Cyber Command. We provide that service whether or not the attacker is human or an artificial intelligence based attacker. That attacker would still attack the exact same vulnerabilities in the system, and therefore, we would still respond functionally in the same manner. We would just have to do it faster. We continue to evolve with the technology, and we will continue to do so with the best of our ability as the technology continues to evolve." }, { "turn_id": 533, "start_sec": 21084.98, "end_sec": 21097.895, "start_hms": "05:51:24", "end_hms": "05:51:37", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "The speaker, rightfully so, in my opinion, asked the companies about the possibility of a kill switch and where that kill switch should live. Do you have any opinions if the kill switch should live in Cyber Command?", "text_unedited": "The speaker, rightfully so, in my opinion, asked the companies about the possibility of a kill switch and where that kill switch should live. Do you have any opinions if the kill switch should should live in Cyber Command?" }, { "turn_id": 534, "start_sec": 21098.455, "end_sec": 21188.715, "start_hms": "05:51:38", "end_hms": "05:53:08", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "I agree in principle with the idea of a kill switch. I will say there are some technical, barriers that would prevent a kill switch as conceptualized living in any agency within New York City, whether that is New York City Cyber Command, OTI, or anywhere else. The reason being is the technical reality for these models is they are deployed on distributed systems, on distributed architecture. With a singular button or with a kill switch or anything of that concept for that to actually work functionally, we would need to be able to coordinate across multiple stakeholders that are not actually regionally colocated to be able to turn off everything at the exact same time. New York City Cyber Command or OTI does not have the authorities or the technical capability to do that. And this runs us up against a similar challenge that we've had with other kill switch bills as it relates to computer technology in general. Mhmm. As this technology gets more distributed, it gets harder and harder for any singular solitary entity to turn it off specifically. That is not to say that there is not technical means by which a group of entities with the legal authority to do so could not disconnect a given model from a given function. But in this particular case, we agree on principle, but it would not be able to be implemented at New York State Cyber Command in practice, not with the technical barriers that are in place.", "text_unedited": "I I agree in principle with the idea of a kill switch. I will say there are some technical, barriers that would prevent a kill switch as conceptualized living in any agency within New York City, whether that is New York City Cyber Command, OTI, or anywhere else. The reason being is the technical reality for these models is they are deployed on distributed systems, on distributed architecture. In order to truly... With a singular button or with a kill switch or anything of that concept for that to actually work work functionally. We would need to be able to coordinate across multiple stakeholders that are not actually regionally colocated to be able to turn off everything at the exact same time. New York City Cyber Command or OTI does not have the authorities or the technical capability to do that. And this runs up... Us up against a similar challenge that we've had with other kill switch bills as it relates to computer technology in general. Mhmm. As this technology gets more distributed, it gets harder and harder for any singular solitary entity to turn it off specifically. That is not to say that there is not technical means by which a group of entities with the legal authority to do so could not disconnect a given model from a given function. But in this particular case, we agree on principle, but it would not be able to be implemented at New York State Cyber Command in practice, not with the technical barriers that are in place." }, { "turn_id": 535, "start_sec": 21189.115, "end_sec": 21207.568, "start_hms": "05:53:09", "end_hms": "05:53:27", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. I'm sure there'll be more on that. Let's see. In your opinion, should AI control be a recognized cybersecurity specialty? If so, what should be the training and curriculum included in that?", "text_unedited": "Okay. I'm sure there'll be more on that. Let's see. In your opinion, should AI control be recognized... A recognized cybersecurity specialty? If so, what should be the training and curriculum included in that?" }, { "turn_id": 536, "start_sec": 21209.465, "end_sec": 21242.125, "start_hms": "05:53:29", "end_hms": "05:54:02", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "I do not believe every function related to artificial intelligence is necessarily going to be a cybersecurity specific challenge. There are some intersections between artificial intelligence and cybersecurity as a particular domain. And when those, two domains interact, that is where certain things should fall within Cyber Command and a cybersecurity professional's purview. And that is any instance of a cyber attack or cybersecurity regardless of if the perpetrator is a human or an artificial intelligence.", "text_unedited": "I do not believe every function related to artificial intelligence is necessarily going to be a cybersecurity specific challenge. There are some intersections between artificial intelligence and cybersecurity as a particular domain. And when those, two domains interact, that is where certain things should fall within cyber command and a cybersecurity professional's purview. And that is any instance of a cyber attack or cybersecurity regardless of if the perpetrator is a human or an artificial intelligence." }, { "turn_id": 537, "start_sec": 21242.766, "end_sec": 21251.645, "start_hms": "05:54:02", "end_hms": "05:54:11", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I just want to ask one follow-up. How many people are working in Cyber Command right now? 121. And how many vacant positions do you have?", "text_unedited": "I just wanna ask one follow-up. How many people are working in cyber command right now? A 121. And how many vacant positions do you have?" }, { "turn_id": 538, "start_sec": 21252.205, "end_sec": 21255.166, "start_hms": "05:54:12", "end_hms": "05:54:15", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "I will need to go back and find that exact number for you, speaker.", "text_unedited": "I will need to go back and find that exact number for you, speaker." }, { "turn_id": 539, "start_sec": 21255.88, "end_sec": 21259.32, "start_hms": "05:54:15", "end_hms": "05:54:19", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Thank you. If you could please provide that. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Thank you. Please provide... If you could please provide that. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 540, "start_sec": 21260.28, "end_sec": 21275.555, "start_hms": "05:54:20", "end_hms": "05:54:35", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. I have a question for our DCWP, commissioner and team. What types of AI misuse are you seeing that harm consumers that you're most concerned about?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I have a question for our DCWP, commissioner and and team. What types of AI misuse are you seeing that harm consumers that you're most concerned about?" }, { "turn_id": 541, "start_sec": 21276.994, "end_sec": 21350.645, "start_hms": "05:54:36", "end_hms": "05:55:50", "speaker_name": "Samuel Levine", "speaker_role": "Witness — DCWP", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 37, "text_clean": "Well, thank you, council member. Thank you, chair. And it's great to have the opportunity to be here. We're concerned about a wide range of misuse, whether it's people using voice cloning technology that these AI companies make fully available to scanner seniors, whether it's grocery stores using AI technology to fix prices or to personalize prices, something that the speaker has introduced to build or prohibit. We're seeing widespread misuse of these tools. And the other thing we're seeing across the board is an attitude by these AI companies that they bear no responsibility for the downstream consequences. I have to just say, chair, I was struck by the final answer I heard by the witness for OpenAI who, when asked a basic question about AI safety, responded that she works in policy, not safety. How are you running a company like OpenAI set to go public introducing trillion dollar tools and you don't have safety as part of your policy division? Deeply disheartened by what we heard at the hearing earlier today. Mhmm. Absolutely. You should've heard their first answer. It went something like, I don't know. There were a lot of I there were a lot of I don't knows. And on behalf of the admin, we hope to give you more fulsome answers. Thank you. And we look forward to engaging with you in that more broad conversation as well. In your opinion, is DCWP", "text_unedited": "Well, thank you, council member. Thank you, chair. And it's great to have the opportunity to be here. We're concerned about a wide range of misuse, whether it's people using voice cloning technology that these AI companies make fully available to scanner seniors, whether it's grocery stores using AI technology to fix prices or to personalize prices, something that the speaker has introduced to build or prohibit. We're seeing widespread misuse of these tools. And the other thing we're seeing across the board is an attitude by these AI companies that they bear no responsibility for the downstream consequences. I have to just say, chair, I was struck by the final answer I heard by the witness for OpenAI who, when asked a basic question about AI safety, responded that she works in policy, not safety. How are you running a company like OpenAI set to go public introducing trillion dollar tools and you don't have safety as part of your policy division? Deeply disheartened by what we heard at the hearing earlier today. Mhmm. Absolutely. You should've heard their first answer. It went something like, I don't know. There were a lot of I there were a lot of I don't knows. And on behalf of the admin, we hope to give you more fulsome answers. Thank you. And we look forward to engaging with you in that more broad conversation as well. In your opinion, is DCWP" }, { "turn_id": 542, "start_sec": 21350.645, "end_sec": 21364.941, "start_hms": "05:55:50", "end_hms": "05:56:04", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "sufficiently staffed to combat this AI misuse? And, would adding, in your opinion, a private right of action strengthen the ability to enforce against violators? Thank you, sir. I'll be candid. I feel that even as we've...", "text_unedited": "sufficiently staffed to combat this AI misuse? And, would adding, in your opinion, a private way of action... A private right of action strengthen the ability to enforce against violators? Thank you, sir. I'll be candid. I feel that even as we've..." }, { "turn_id": 543, "start_sec": 21365.66, "end_sec": 21430.69, "start_hms": "05:56:05", "end_hms": "05:57:10", "speaker_name": "Samuel Levine", "speaker_role": "Witness — DCWP", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 37, "text_clean": "As under the Mamdani administration, we are adding to our ranks, I believe we are capable of taking on many of the misuses of AI, whether that's DoorDash using algorithms to underpay its workers, something we remedied in the largest labor enforcement action in history, whether it's companies using AI to harm consumers through surveillance pricing, we're strongly supporting the speaker's bill on this. I think we have strong tools. That said, no enforcement agency, and I've worked at the state, federal, and municipal level, will ever have the resources to take on every possible misuse of this technology. That is why, chair, I would strongly support a private right of action as contemplated by a number of these bills to give ordinary people, workers, and businesses the opportunity to hold these companies accountable. I can guarantee you, though, these companies, as soon as the city does that, are going to run to Washington asking for preemption. Regardless of what they might be saying at this hearing, what really speaks is where their lobbying dollars are going, and that is to DC congress asking to hit delete on all of these city and state, AI safety laws.", "text_unedited": "As under the Mamdani administration, we are adding to our ranks, I believe we are capable of taking on many of the misuses of AI, whether that's DoorDash using algorithms to underpay its workers, something we remedied in the largest labor enforcement action in history, whether it's companies using AI to, harm consumers through surveillance pricing, we're strongly supporting the speaker's bill on this. I think we have strong tools. That said, no enforcement agency, and I've I've worked at the state, federal, and municipal level, will ever have the resources to take on every possible misuse of this technology. That is why, chair, I would strongly support a private right of action as as contemplated by a number of these bills to give ordinary people, workers, and businesses the opportunity to hold these companies accountable. I can guarantee you, though, these companies, as soon as the city does that, are gonna run to Washington asking for preemption. Regardless of what they might be saying at this hearing, what really speaks is where their lobbying dollars are going, and that is to DC congress asking to hit delete on all of these city and state, AI safety laws." }, { "turn_id": 544, "start_sec": 21431.904, "end_sec": 21441.426, "start_hms": "05:57:11", "end_hms": "05:57:21", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you, commissioner and team. I'm going to pass it on to my colleagues, Council Member Gutiérrez, followed by Aldebol, followed by Maloney.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, commissioner and and team. I'm gonna pass it on to my colleagues, council member Gutierrez, followed by Aldeball, followed by Maloney." }, { "turn_id": 545, "start_sec": 21442.145, "end_sec": 21525.994, "start_hms": "05:57:22", "end_hms": "05:58:45", "speaker_name": "Jennifer Gutiérrez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 51, "text_clean": "Thank you. Good to see everyone. My first question is for deputy commissioner. Good to see you. Going off of the speaker's line of questioning regarding the Office of Algorithmic Accountability. I know you said you're excited about this report. You're setting up an orientation meeting. It feels like not a lot of time. I guess, before the report is scheduled to be released, what can you share about the cadence of how often you're going to be able to meet? Do you expect the report to be released on time? This is not a reflection of you, but I really felt like the previous administration under the previous OTI leadership was delayed in many things. And we certainly don't want compliance to be one of those things. So if you can just share with me a little bit about the cadence, how many people, you said the funding you got in June, how many people will the office be able to employ, Where you are in that process currently? Oh, okay. That was it for you. I had a question for DCWP. I can come back. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. And then for DCWP, I just wanted to ask, if you can share a little bit about how the implementation of Local Law 144 is going, the automated deployment decision tools. Just wanted to see how the implementation of that law is going, and that's it. Fair enough. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Good to see everyone. My first question is for, deputy commissioner. Good to see you. Going off of, the speaker's line of questioning regarding the the office of algorithmic accountability, Can you share... I know I know you said you're excited about this report. You're setting up an orientation meeting. It it feels like not a lot lot of time. I guess, can you share... Before the report is scheduled to be released, what can you share about the cadence of how often you're gonna be able to meet? Do you expect the report to be released on time? This is not a reflection of you, but I really felt like the previous administration under the previous OTI leadership was delayed in in in many things. And we certainly don't want compliance to be one of those things. So if you can just share with me a little bit about the cadence, how many people, you said the funding you got in June, how many people will the office be able to employ, Where you are in that process currently? Oh, okay. That was it for you. I had a question for DCW. I can come back. Go ahead. Go ahead. Okay. And then for DCWP, I just wanted to ask, if you can share a little bit about how the the implementation of local law one forty four is going, the automated deployment decision tools. Just wanted to see how the implementation of that law is going, and that's it. Fair enough. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 546, "start_sec": 21527.441, "end_sec": 21643.64, "start_hms": "05:58:47", "end_hms": "06:00:43", "speaker_name": "Samuel Levine", "speaker_role": "Witness — DCWP", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 37, "text_clean": "Well, thank you councilmember. Let me start by 01:44. I think this is a really well intentioned bill to regulate the use of automated decision making systems for hiring. I think it does have some flaws, though, especially in that it requires companies that use AI systems for hiring to conduct audits. It doesn't actually require that those audits come up clean. That's really a civil rights question. That is why our administration put out a policy statement last week on behalf of DCWP Commission on Human Rights and Taxi and Limousine Commission, making clear that existing laws apply. But I do want to circle back to a broader point that this hearing reveals, which is that bias in decision making produced by AI systems is a very real concern you're addressing. These companies would like an exemption from the law. The companies that testified earlier want to assert that if decisions are made in a black box, nobody can be held accountable for. I applaud this council's effort to actually impute responsibility for these harms to the companies making billions of dollars on it, and we would be very happy to work with the council to work on a revised, expanded, strengthened automated decision making bill that places the responsibility to remove bias from hiring where it belongs. Are there instances where the harm is happening amongst the city agencies using these tools? I would defer to OTI and to those in hiring. I don't believe that the city is using AI tools to sort resumes, but I would defer to others in the admin... I can tell you it in my agency, we have people reviewing applications. Just as starting in January when delivery workers get deactivated, we have people reviewing that. When consumers file complaints, we have people reviewing it. We are a big believer in our administration that the people of New York should be served by the people of the city government. Thank you. Part of the package of bills that the speaker mentioned that we passed last December", "text_unedited": "Well, thank you councilmember. Let me start by 01:44. I think this is a really well intentioned bill to regulate the use of automated decision making systems for hiring. I think it does have some flaw... Those... Flaws, though, especially in that it requires companies that use AI systems for hiring to conduct audits. It doesn't actually require that those audits come up clean. That's really a civil rights question. That is why our administration put out a policy statement last week on behalf of DCWP Commission on Human Rights and Tatsium Limousine, making clear that existing laws apply. But I do wanna circle back to a broader point that this hearing reveals, which is that bias in decision making produced by AI systems is a very real concern you're addressing. These companies would like an exemption from the law. The companies that testified earlier want to assert that if decisions are made in a black box, nobody can held... Be held accountable for I applaud this council's effort to actually impute responsibility for these harms to the companies making billions of dollars on it, and we would be very happy to work with the council to work on a revised, expanded, strengthened automated decision making bill that places the responsibility to remove bias from hiring where it belongs. And do you think that the... Is there... Are there instances where the the harm is happening amongst the city agencies using these tools? I don't believe that... I I would defer to OTI and to those in hiring. I don't believe that the city is using AI tools to sort resumes, but I would defer to others in the admin... I can tell you it in my agency, we have people reviewing people reviewing applications. Just as starting in January when delivery workers get deactivated, we have people reviewing that. When consumers file complaints, we have people reviewing it. We are a big believer in our administration that the people of New York should be served by the people of the city government. Thank you. Part of the package of bills that the speaker mentioned that we passed last December" }, { "turn_id": 547, "start_sec": 21644.041, "end_sec": 21655.605, "start_hms": "06:00:44", "end_hms": "06:00:55", "speaker_name": "Jennifer Gutiérrez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 51, "text_clean": "on Christmas was, to get the city and to get OTI to report on all those AI tools that every city agency is reporting on. So we'll know soon enough. But please, deputy commissioner, thank you.", "text_unedited": "on on Christmas was, to get the city and to get OTI to report on all those AI tools that every city agency is reporting on. So we'll know soon enough. But please, deputy commissioner, thank you." }, { "turn_id": 548, "start_sec": 21656.244, "end_sec": 21701.83, "start_hms": "06:00:56", "end_hms": "06:01:41", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question, council member. So I think there's a couple of reports we're talking about here. Want to give a little bit of context. Local Law 35 is the report that requires agencies to tell us about the algorithmic tools they're using that have public, impact. And that report, we have, delivered on time every year for the past five years. The, process court kicked off last week Mhmm. And we'll be collecting data over the course of the next few months with the plan to publish it in March 2027. We have all the indications that will come in on time as it has in each of the past five years. So we're feeling good about that. I'm just referring to the report back from intro 199.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question, council member. So I think there's a couple of reports we're talking about here. Wanna give a little bit of context. Local law 35 is the report that, requires agencies to tell us about the algorithmic tools they're using that have public, impact. And that report, we have, delivered on time every year for the past five years. The the, process court kicked off last week Mhmm. And we'll be collecting data over the course of the next few months with the plan to publish it in March 2027. The... We have all the indications that that will come in on time as it has in each of the past five years. So we're feeling good about that. I'm just referring to the report back from, intro 199." }, { "turn_id": 549, "start_sec": 21701.908, "end_sec": 21711.523, "start_hms": "06:01:41", "end_hms": "06:01:51", "speaker_name": "Jennifer Gutiérrez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 51, "text_clean": "I'm sorry. Could you I was just referring to the report, required by intro 199. So that's the package of bills from last fall. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying. So we", "text_unedited": "I'm sorry. Could you I was just referring to the report, required by intro 199. So that's the package of bills from last fall. Yeah. Thank you for clarifying. So we" }, { "turn_id": 550, "start_sec": 21713.283, "end_sec": 21739.686, "start_hms": "06:01:53", "end_hms": "06:02:19", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "are... The director of OAA, which we hope to be able to announce quite soon, will be, primarily responsible for the additional reporting that will be required in March 2027. And in part because we have this good experience internally understanding process with Local Law 35, we think we're in a good position to move quickly on the additional reporting that will be due in March 2027.", "text_unedited": "are... The director of OAA, which we hope to be able to announce quite soon, will be, primarily responsible for the additional reporting that will be required in March 2027. And in part because we have this good experience internally understanding process with local law 35, we think we're in a good position to move quickly on the additional reporting that will be due in March 2027." }, { "turn_id": 551, "start_sec": 21740.164, "end_sec": 21744.805, "start_hms": "06:02:20", "end_hms": "06:02:24", "speaker_name": "Jennifer Gutiérrez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 51, "text_clean": "Okay. And you said announcement. Do you have someone already for the role?", "text_unedited": "Okay. And you said announcement. Do you have someone already for the role?" }, { "turn_id": 552, "start_sec": 21746.244, "end_sec": 21756.22, "start_hms": "06:02:26", "end_hms": "06:02:36", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "We will have an announcement, and I hope that we'll be about the announcement. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Thank you. We have, Council Member Aldebol, followed by Maloney, followed by Won.", "text_unedited": "We will have an announcement, and I hope that we'll be about the announcement. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, chair. Thank you. We have, council member Audubaugh, followed by Maloney, followed by Juan." }, { "turn_id": 553, "start_sec": 21758.22, "end_sec": 21787.291, "start_hms": "06:02:38", "end_hms": "06:03:07", "speaker_name": "Shirley Aldebol", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 32, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair and Speaker Menin. So you said the hiring process for the six new positions that were created in the adopted budget, are actively underway. Like, specifically, where are you in the process? How many people have already been hired? How many people are left to be hired? And what have been the challenges in being able to hire people quickly?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair and and speaker Manon. So you said the hiring process for the six new positions that were created in the adopted budget, are actively underway. Like, specifically, where are you in the process? How many people have already been hired? How many people are left to be hired? And what are... What have been the challenges in in being able to hire people quickly?" }, { "turn_id": 554, "start_sec": 21788.33, "end_sec": 21829.445, "start_hms": "06:03:08", "end_hms": "06:03:49", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question, council member. So we hope to be announcing a director for the office quite soon, in the next week or two. And we are in the process of defining the additional roles so that they can be brought on quite quickly. We certainly are challenged to find people who have the right combination of AI expertise and understanding of city systems to be able to like, hit the ground running. That has been a little bit of a challenge, but I think bringing in a strong leader is going to help us draw good people who are going to want to do this work with us.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question, council member. So we hope to be announcing a director for the office quite soon, in the next week or two. And we are in the process of defining the additional roles so that they can be brought on quite quickly. We certainly are challenged to find people who have the right combination of AI expertise and understanding of city systems to be able to, like, hit the ground running. That has been a little bit of a challenge, but we do have... I think bringing in a strong leader is gonna help us draw good people who are gonna wanna do this work with us." }, { "turn_id": 555, "start_sec": 21830.166, "end_sec": 21867.08, "start_hms": "06:03:50", "end_hms": "06:04:27", "speaker_name": "Shirley Aldebol", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 32, "text_clean": "If I may, chair. Part of the role is to analyze algorithmic tools submitted by the agencies to determine whether there's risk that the proposal could result in discriminatory decision making. What is your office what is your office doing or thinking about in terms of protecting the city's workforce as AI develops and evolves and you're kind of like the gatekeeper", "text_unedited": "If I may, chair. Part of the role is to to analyze algorithmic tools submitted by the agencies to determine whether there's risk that the proposal could result in discriminatory decision making. What is your office what is your office doing or or thinking about in terms of protecting the city's workforce as AI develops and evolves and you're kind of like the gatekeeper" }, { "turn_id": 556, "start_sec": 21867.8, "end_sec": 21869.0, "start_hms": "06:04:27", "end_hms": "06:04:29", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Yeah. AI.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. AI." }, { "turn_id": 557, "start_sec": 21869.16, "end_sec": 21904.82, "start_hms": "06:04:29", "end_hms": "06:05:04", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. So in parallel with some of the risk assessment that we can do of the software, we are doing the research associated with Local Law 25, which has us researching how algorithmic tools and automated employment decision tools might be impacting city workers. And believe that we should have results from that in 2027, and we'll have a much better sense of the landscape of how workers in the city are impacted.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. So in parallel with some of the risk assessment that we can do of the software, we are doing the research associated with local law 25, which has us researching how algorithmic tools are impacting... Algorithmic tools and, automated employment decision tools might be impacting city workers. And believe that we should have results from that in 2027, and we'll have a much better sense of the landscape of how how workers in the city are impacted." }, { "turn_id": 558, "start_sec": 21905.885, "end_sec": 21912.045, "start_hms": "06:05:05", "end_hms": "06:05:12", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Council Member Maloney, followed by Won, followed by Brewer.", "text_unedited": "K. Thank you. Thank you. Council member Maloney, followed by Juan, followed by Brewer." }, { "turn_id": 559, "start_sec": 21912.605, "end_sec": 22016.459, "start_hms": "06:05:12", "end_hms": "06:06:56", "speaker_name": "Virginia Maloney", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 36, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair. As we all know, generative AI technology is changing how we communicate, work, and how businesses operate. And the same could be said of our government offices, both how we work and operate either officially or unofficially. So I want to know how New York City agencies are adapting to the new reality. The first on the opportunity side, there are plenty of examples of government wins of adopting useful technologies for the public good. In Connecticut, they have real time translation in 80 languages for these kinds of public meetings to increase accessibility in California. They automatically check permit applications against 18,000 pages of building code in order to speed up reviews. So my first question is what is our equivalent win in New York? And if we don't have one yet, what's the plan to identify those opportunities? And the second question is around oversight. If I may wrap up, OTI published generative AI guidance for agencies last December. So as we're exploring these opportunities, is that guidance binding or is it advice? What happens if agencies ignore that guidance? Has OTI been prescriptive about a list of generative AI or agentic AI tools that have been reviewed and approved for city use that are use cases that the city officially supports? And then, how are we thinking about procurement when these models are constantly iterating and changing every few months, every few days, truly, and when new technologies are being introduced? Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. As we all know, generative AI technology is changing how we communicate, work, and how businesses operate. And the same could be said of our government offices, both how we work and operate either officially or unofficially. So I wanna know how New York City agencies are adapting to the new reality. The first on the opportunity side, there are plenty of examples of government wins of adopting useful technologies for the public good. In Connecticut, they have real time translation of 80... In 80 languages for these kinds of public meetings to increase accessibility in California. They automatically check permit applications against 18,000 pages of of of code... Building code in order to speed up reviews. So my first question is, what is our equivalent win in New York? And if we don't have one yet, what's the plan to identify those opportunities? And the second question is around oversight. If I may wrap up, OTI published generative AI guidance for agencies last December. So as we're exploring these opportunities, is that guidance binding or is it advice? What happens if agencies ignore that guidance? Has OTI been prescriptive about a list of generative AI or agentic AI tools that have been reviewed and approved for city use that are use cases that the city officially supports? And then, how are we thinking about procurement when these models are constantly iterating and changing every few months and when new... Every few days, truly, and when new technologies are being introduced? Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 560, "start_sec": 22018.414, "end_sec": 22133.795, "start_hms": "06:06:58", "end_hms": "06:08:53", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for those questions, council member. I'm so glad you brought up the question about wins because we're really interested in both effective and responsible use of AI, and effective would cover the wins. I don't have, a perfect list here, and I'd like to follow-up with that because we'd really like to represent the agency as well. In terms of tools that we have approved, broadly, there are two sets of tools, that OTI approves centrally, Microsoft Office Suite and other Microsoft tools, and that includes their Copilot chat. And some of their some of their other tools have AI features built in. And we also have a central, license for Adobe Creative Cloud, and many of those tools have AI features built in. Other software tools that are used by agencies are reviewed for the most part on a one off basis by OTI, and we are still determining the best way to move forward with that process to make sure that we are identifying and managing risk appropriately. I think your question about procurement is an excellent one. And part of what we have started to research ahead of having staff at OAA. We started to talk with various experts in risk management to understand some of the ways that we might think about risk in an ongoing way when traditionally all kinds of procurement, there's a gate at the beginning for various concerns, and then it's rolling. I think you're right. That's not appropriate for this situation, and we should have more to discuss on that in the coming months. But it's an active question that we have as well.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for those questions, council member. I'm so glad you brought up the question about wins because we're really interested in both effective and responsible use of AI, and effective would cover the wins. I don't have, a perfect list here, and I'd like to follow-up with that because we'd really like to represent the agency as well. In terms of tools that we have approved, broadly, there are two sets of tools, that OTI approves centrally, Microsoft Office Suite and other Microsoft tools, and that includes their Copilot chat. And some of their, some of their other tools have AI features built in. And we also have a central, license for Adobe Creative Cloud, and many of those tools have AI features built in. Other tools that... Other software tools that are used by agencies are, reviewed for the most part on a one off basis by OTI, and we are still determining the best way to move forward with that process to make sure that we are managing... Identifying and managing risk appropriately. I think your question about procurement is an excellent one. And part of what we have started to research ahead of having staff at OAA. We started to, talk with various experts in risk management to understand some of the ways that we might think about risk in an ongoing way when traditionally all kinds of procurement has... Like, there's a a gate at the beginning for various concerns, and then then then it's rolling. I think you're right. That's not appropriate for this situation, and we should have more to discuss on that in the coming months. But it's an active question that we have as well." }, { "turn_id": 561, "start_sec": 22135.074, "end_sec": 22140.355, "start_hms": "06:08:55", "end_hms": "06:09:00", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, council member, Won, followed by Hanif,", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, council member, Juan, followed by Hanks," }, { "turn_id": 562, "start_sec": 22140.836, "end_sec": 22221.076, "start_hms": "06:09:00", "end_hms": "06:10:21", "speaker_name": "Julie Won", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 48, "text_clean": "followed by Brewer. Thank you so much, Chair De La Rosa. So for the panel, what I have questions about is building off of what Council Member Maloney just said. The agencies are allowed to currently use Microsoft products and also Adobe. But it's clear to me and the public that they are using other AI tools. So not just the passive tools like using Zoom to transcribe their notes and for follow ups, but in addition to that, they're using ChatGPT, they're using Claude, they're using Nano Banana Pro because we're seeing it for agencies like HPD, DOE, DEP. They're creating flyers for public consumption. They're using it for their public emails. They're using it for public messaging. So what are you actually doing? Because I want to know what the public policy is from the mayor on how the agencies are using AI and how you are regulating it internally as well. And, also, I would like to build off of that for city contracts. What are you doing currently for data privacy riders and city contracts for all procurement of AI companies for making sure that our constituent data is not being used to train their AI models? And is there a clause at all or a rider in the city contract, especially with copilot since that's the only real one that you have? And people are just using their own personal accounts or free accounts for everything else that they're currently using for their day to day jobs.", "text_unedited": "followed by Brewer. Thank you so much, chair De La Rosa. So for the panel, what I have questions about is building off of what council member Maloney just said. The one... The agencies are allowed to currently use Microsoft products and also Adobe. But it's clear to me and the public that they are using other AI tools. So not just the passive tools like using Zoom to transcribe their notes and for follow ups, but in addition to that, they're using ChatGPT, they're using Claw, they're using Nano Banana Pro because we're seeing it for agencies like HPD, DOE, DEP. They're creating flyers for public consumption. They're using it for their public emails. They're using it for public messaging. So what are you actually doing? Because I want to know what the public policy is from the mayor on how the agencies are using AI and how you are regulating it internally as well. And, also, I would like to build off of that for city contracts. What are you doing currently for data privacy writers and city contracts for all procurement of AI companies for making sure that our constituent data is not being used to train their AI models? And is there a clause at all or a rider in the city contract, especially with copilot since that's the only real one that you have? And people are just using their own personal accounts or free accounts for everything else that they're currently using for their day to day jobs." }, { "turn_id": 563, "start_sec": 22222.318, "end_sec": 22241.096, "start_hms": "06:10:22", "end_hms": "06:10:41", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question, council member. So let me first address the question about the AI rider. We shared, that with general councils across the city this summer with an updated AI rider, and I want to just make sure I've got the right language here, so I'm going to pull that up. Let's see.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the question, council member. So let me first address the question about the AI rider. We shared, that with general councils across the city this summer with an updated AI rider, and I wanna just make sure I've got the right language here, so I'm gonna pull that up. Let's see." }, { "turn_id": 564, "start_sec": 22242.936, "end_sec": 22256.75, "start_hms": "06:10:42", "end_hms": "06:10:56", "speaker_name": "Julie Won", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 48, "text_clean": "Yeah. Because my privacy concerns are not just for the contracts that exist, but it is for the free willing use of agency staff that are using non city enterprise licensed AI.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Because my privacy concerns are not just for the contracts that exist, but it is for the free willing use of of agency staff that are using non city enterprise licensed AI." }, { "turn_id": 565, "start_sec": 22256.83, "end_sec": 22354.436, "start_hms": "06:10:56", "end_hms": "06:12:34", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. So I'll first address the rider and then we'll talk about the shadow use. So, the rider, as I said, was distributed to city agencies citywide this summer, and it's intended to mitigate risks and apply the city's policies and standards to AI products and features. It's available for all city software contracts, and our legal team recommends that agencies use it even where no AI component is currently contemplated. The rider includes terms relating to intellectual property, security, how the city's data may be used, and privacy. And, so that is now active and in use, with also a proactive component of recommending that it's used for all manner of technology. In terms of the shadow use, which I think is probably both at the individual and at the agency level, we are not in a technical position to monitor that. We, as an agency, share concerns about that, and part of what we're interested in doing is making sure that agencies have the tools that they need that are properly regulated. Microsoft tools, for example, where data can't be shared or used to train their models, that agencies have the tools that they need to do the jobs that they have so that they are not turning to outside tools. So who is responsible if you aren't able to regulate shadow use of AI tools for a day to day use, especially with constituent data? Who is willing to regulate that? Like to follow-up with you on that question.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Yeah. So I'll first address the writer and then we'll talk about the the shadow use. So, the rider, as I said, was distributed to city... State agencies citywide this summer, and it's intended to mitigate risks and apply the city's policies and standards to AI products and features. It's available for all city software contracts, and our legal team recommends that agencies use it even where no AI component is currently contemplated. The writer includes terms relating to intellectual property, security, how the city's data may be used, and privacy. And, so that is now active and in use, and I think that... With also a proactive component of recommending that it's used for all manner of technology. In terms of the the shadow use, which I think is probably both at the individual and at the agency level, we are not in a technical position to monitor that. But I certainly... We, as an agency, share concerns about that, and part of what we're interested in doing is making sure that agencies have the tools that they need that are properly regulated. Microsoft tools, for example, that... Where data can't be shared or used to train their models, that agencies have the tools that they need to do the jobs that they have so that they are not turning to outside tools. So who is responsible if you aren't able to regulate shadow use of AI tools for a day to day use, especially with constituent data? Who is willing to regulate that? Like to follow-up with you on that question." }, { "turn_id": 566, "start_sec": 22354.914, "end_sec": 22369.41, "start_hms": "06:12:34", "end_hms": "06:12:49", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. Thank you, council members. So I know the admin has a hard stop at 5:30. We have about six more member questions. So if you all could just hang on tight, we're going to try to get through this members. Please consolidate the questions.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Thank thank you, council members. So I know the admin has a hard stop at 05:30. We have about six more member questions. So if you all could just hang on tight, we're gonna try to get through this members. Please consolidate the questions." }, { "turn_id": 567, "start_sec": 22370.53, "end_sec": 22397.99, "start_hms": "06:12:50", "end_hms": "06:13:17", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "We have our majority whip, Council Member Hanks. Thank you so much, chair. I'll be very, very brief. With so you testified, with all the technology that's changing rapidly, even the best can't keep up. In your testimony, you said the administration is continuing to evolve your strategies to keep our city's infrastructure safe, But not all threats to AI systems are necessarily cyber attacks. Can you expand on that?", "text_unedited": "We have our majority whip, councilor Moranx. Thank you so much, chair. I'll be very, very brief. With so you testified, with all the, technology that's changing rapidly, even the best can't, you know, keep up. So you... In your testimony, you said the administration is continuing to evolve your strategies to keep our city's infrastructure safe, But not all threats to AI systems are necessarily cyber attacks. Can you expand on that?" }, { "turn_id": 568, "start_sec": 22400.55, "end_sec": 22481.38, "start_hms": "06:13:20", "end_hms": "06:14:41", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Yes. So when looking at the way that it is currently described by the National Institute of Science and Technology as well as some of the universities and academics who've created some of these systems, there are functionally two baskets of AI risk. There is risk related to AI when an AI is attacked as a computer system just like any other piece of software. And then there are risks related to artificial intelligence that are truly novel to this new technology inherent in the way that these artificial intelligence models may interact with society when deployed. That second category of risk is a function of how much society may trust the artificial intelligence and how reliable that artificial intelligence system may be. Those two things can run afoul of what we may expect as consumers or as a government entity, completely agnostic of whether or not the system for which those AIs are deployed are actually cyber secure. So a system can be completely cyber secure, but the AI model itself in interactions with other humans in society writ large may take an action that is unexpected and therefore result in some sort of disruption, agnostic of a cybersecurity incident. That's functionally the two categories. That's a very broad breakdown of those two categories of risk.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So when looking at the way that it is currently described by the National Institute of Science and Technology as well as some of the universities and academics who've created some of these systems, there are functionally two baskets of AI risk. There is risk related to AI when an AI is attacked as a computer system just like any other piece of software. And then there are risks related to artificial intelligence that are truly novel to this new technology inherent in the way that these artificial intelligence models may interact with society when deployed. That second category of risk is a function of often a... How much society may trust the artificial intelligence and how reliable that artificial intelligence system may be. Those two things can run afoul of what we may expect as consumers or as a government entity, completely agnostic of whether or not the system for which those AIs are deployed are actually cyber secure. So a system can be completely cyber secure, but the AI model itself in interactions with other humans in society writ large may take an action that is unexpected and therefore result in some sort of disruption, agnostic of a cybersecurity incident. That's functionally the two categories. That's a very broad breakdown of those two categories of risk." }, { "turn_id": 569, "start_sec": 22482.262, "end_sec": 22498.326, "start_hms": "06:14:42", "end_hms": "06:14:58", "speaker_name": "Kamillah Hanks", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 29, "text_clean": "So I'm going to keep my question just to that. I think that we should talk offline because my legislation requires the 24-hour reporting requirement to Cyber Command in which your testimony has some issues, and you talk about how we're going to push this through to federal and state", "text_unedited": "So I'm gonna keep my my question just to that. I think that we should talk offline because my legislation requires the twenty four hour reporting requirement to Cyber Command in which your testimony has some issues, and you you talk about, how we're gonna push this through to to city... To federal and, state" }, { "turn_id": 570, "start_sec": 22498.727, "end_sec": 22546.096, "start_hms": "06:14:58", "end_hms": "06:15:46", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "and what specific role do they play in that, how can we make this better, but I will relinquish that. Thank you, Chen.... You so much. Up next, we have Brewer followed by Jose. Thank you very much. I know you talked about the Microsoft and the Adobe, but if an agency wants to begin using a new AI model, how do they go about it? Number two, does the city run these models on its own data centers or only on the ones that are on the control of vendor clouds? And then if you have a problem, like there's a criteria, what is it for testing to identify the malicious, misaligned AI product? And then how much does the city spend each year on outside AI consultants? I could go on but those are three, four questions. I have 10 pages here. Okay.", "text_unedited": "and what specific role do they play in that, how how can we make this better, but, I will relinquish that. Thank you, Chen.... You so much. Up next, we have Brewer followed by Jose. Thank you very much. I know you talked about the Microsoft and the Adobe, but if an agency wants to begin using a new AI model, a, what... How do they go about it? Number two, does the city run these models on its own data centers or only on the ones that are on the control of vendor clouds? And then if you have a problem, like there's a criteria, what is it for testing to identify the malicious, misaligned AI product? And then how much does the city spend each year on outside AI consultants? I could go on, but those are three, four questions. I have 10 pages here. Okay." }, { "turn_id": 571, "start_sec": 22547.055, "end_sec": 22592.25, "start_hms": "06:15:47", "end_hms": "06:16:32", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the questions. Let's see. So... The process. Yeah. Typically, when agencies want to buy software, a part of the process is discussing with OTI what they are buying and what they will be using it for. And we have a cybersecurity review process that is part of that to ensure that the software that is either going to be bought or built, will be safe. And as my colleague has said, cybersecurity includes the typical AI concerns. So that's process. You had...", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the questions. Let's see. So... The process. Yeah. Typically, when agencies want to buy software, a part of the process is discussing with OTI what they are buying and what they will be using it for. And we have a cybersecurity review process that is part of that to ensure that the software that is either going to be bought or built, will be safe. And as, my colleague has said, that would include... Cybersecurity includes the typical AI, concerns. So that's process. You had..." }, { "turn_id": 572, "start_sec": 22593.05, "end_sec": 22602.965, "start_hms": "06:16:33", "end_hms": "06:16:42", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Next question, the clouds. Whose clouds are they on? Whose data centers? Where are they? Yeah. Are you running them or is it outside vendors?", "text_unedited": "Next question, who... The clouds. Who's whose clouds are they on? Who... Who's whose data centers? Who's you know, where are they? Yeah. Are you running them or is it outside vendors?" }, { "turn_id": 573, "start_sec": 22605.764, "end_sec": 22618.17, "start_hms": "06:16:45", "end_hms": "06:16:58", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "So to the best of my knowledge, there are no city agencies running their own models. It's vendor clouds, basically.", "text_unedited": "So to the best of my knowledge, there are no city agencies running their own models. But I would like to... It's vendor clouds, basically." }, { "turn_id": 574, "start_sec": 22618.57, "end_sec": 22621.53, "start_hms": "06:16:58", "end_hms": "06:17:01", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Vendor clouds. Vendor clouds. Yes.", "text_unedited": "Vendor clouds. Vendor clouds. Yes." }, { "turn_id": 575, "start_sec": 22621.53, "end_sec": 22638.045, "start_hms": "06:17:01", "end_hms": "06:17:18", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "So, for example, Microsoft host software that agencies use. But I'd like to follow-up after the hearing to make sure I've got the exact right information for you. Okay. And if there's something unexpected,", "text_unedited": "So, for example, Microsoft host software that agencies use. But I'd like to follow-up after the hearing to make sure I've got the exact right information for you. Okay. And if there's something unexpected," }, { "turn_id": 576, "start_sec": 22638.045, "end_sec": 22640.363, "start_hms": "06:17:18", "end_hms": "06:17:20", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "misaligned AI product behavior, what do you do?", "text_unedited": "misaligned AI product behavior, what do you do?" }, { "turn_id": 577, "start_sec": 22641.68, "end_sec": 22644.32, "start_hms": "06:17:21", "end_hms": "06:17:24", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "That is a question for my colleague, CJ Dixon.", "text_unedited": "That is a question for my colleague, CJ Dixon." }, { "turn_id": 578, "start_sec": 22645.76, "end_sec": 22696.18, "start_hms": "06:17:25", "end_hms": "06:18:16", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Councilwoman, that depends on what the misaligned behavior is. If that misaligned behavior, specifically a cyber incident, we take appropriate action based on what any cyber professional may do. There are novel misalignments that are born of this technology that do have to be unpacked, and we look forward to working with the council as well as our partners across New York City to understand when those misalignments do arise unrelated to existing risks that the city already deals with how do we actually engage with those particular novel risks. Have you had some in the last, since you started your job? None related to what Cyber Command's purview is. And that is primarily cyber security issues. We've had no misalignments related to cyber security that have resulted in negative consequences for the city from an AI model very specifically.", "text_unedited": "Councilwoman, that depends on what the misaligned behavior is. If that misaligned behavior, specifically a cyber incident, we take appropriate action based on what any cyber professional may do. There are novel misalignments that are born of this technology that do have to be unpacked, and we look forward to working with the council as well as our partners across New York City to understand when those misalignments do arise unrelated to existing risks that the city already deals with, how do we actually engage with those particular novel risks. Have you had some in the last, since you started your job? None related to what cyber command's purview is. What... And that is primarily cyber security issues. We've had no misalignments related to cyber security that have resulted in negative consequences for the city from an AI model very specifically." }, { "turn_id": 579, "start_sec": 22696.58, "end_sec": 22704.42, "start_hms": "06:18:16", "end_hms": "06:18:24", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Alright. That sounds very... I don't know what it sounds. How much outside AI consultant dollars are being spent?", "text_unedited": "Alright. That sounds very... I don't know what it sounds. How much outside AI consultant dollars are being spent?" }, { "turn_id": 580, "start_sec": 22709.273, "end_sec": 22713.035, "start_hms": "06:18:29", "end_hms": "06:18:33", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Council member, could you clarify what you mean by AI consultants? Yeah.", "text_unedited": "Council member, could you clarify what you mean by AI consultants? Yeah." }, { "turn_id": 581, "start_sec": 22713.834, "end_sec": 22732.01, "start_hms": "06:18:33", "end_hms": "06:18:52", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "How many people are you paying? I mean, I've been doing this work a long time, so I know sort of the answer. But how much outside consultants are being paid on terms of AI? In other words, how many people are you paying to work with you on AI issues outside vendors, consultants?", "text_unedited": "How many people are you paying? I mean, I've been doing this work a long time, so I know sort of the answer. But how much outside consultants are being paid on terms of AI? In other words, how many people are you paying to work with you on AI issues outside vendors, consultants?" }, { "turn_id": 582, "start_sec": 22735.477, "end_sec": 22739.877, "start_hms": "06:18:55", "end_hms": "06:18:59", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "None that I'm aware of but I would like to follow-up with you to make sure that we can accurate information....", "text_unedited": "None that I'm aware of, but I would like to follow-up with you to make sure that we can accurate information...." }, { "turn_id": 583, "start_sec": 22740.596, "end_sec": 22747.557, "start_hms": "06:19:00", "end_hms": "06:19:07", "speaker_name": "Gale Brewer", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "House. Is that what you're saying? Everything to do in terms of strategy, thought process, future, it's all in house?", "text_unedited": "House. Is that what you're saying? Everything to do in terms of strategy, thought process, future, it's all in house?" }, { "turn_id": 584, "start_sec": 22748.432, "end_sec": 22754.592, "start_hms": "06:19:08", "end_hms": "06:19:14", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Yes. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Council Member Ossé, followed by Deputy Speaker Williams.", "text_unedited": "Yes. K. Thank you. Thank you. Council member Osei, followed by deputy speaker Williams." }, { "turn_id": 585, "start_sec": 22754.83, "end_sec": 22797.785, "start_hms": "06:19:14", "end_hms": "06:19:57", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. I just wanted to refer to the recent hacking situation in Australia. That was proof that AI agents do have that ability to hack into our government systems. As I'm sure in June, a rogue OpenAI agent hacked into an Australian government statistics portal containing private data from Australia's universal health care system. At this current moment, if a similar hack that happened to Australia happened here in New York, do you feel that the city and the admin has a sufficient plan to defend against the hacks and protect any sensitive data? And two, does the city currently have a responsive liaison from each of these companies to speak to in case of a hack?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. I just wanted to refer to the recent hacking situation in Australia. That was proof that AI agents do have that ability to hack into our government systems. As I'm sure you know, in June, a rogue OpenAI agent hacked into an Australian government statistics portal portal containing private data from Australia's universal health care system. At this current moment, if a similar hack that happened to Australia happened here in New York, do you feel that the city and the admin has a sufficient plan to defend against the hacks and protect any sensitive data? And two, does the city currently have a responsive liaison from each of these companies to speak to in case of a hack?" }, { "turn_id": 586, "start_sec": 22798.824, "end_sec": 22876.305, "start_hms": "06:19:58", "end_hms": "06:21:16", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "To the first question, yes. We do have the people process technology and some of the policies in place to deal with an incident similar to what happened in Australia. The reason being is even though an AI was involved, the hacking process, the attack chain, if you will, happen in the same way that if a human being were to execute that attack. At the end of the day, the underlying infrastructure, I will use air quotes here, doesn't actually care if the person at the end of the other end of the keyboard is a human or a silicon based entity. The attack chain still remained functionally the same. Therefore, our team is equipped and trained very specifically to identify these indicators of compromise, identify the attack patterns, and then be able to respond accordingly at multiple points. So we are prepared to address those types of issues, and we do have points of contacts when we are working as city agencies with vendors who are under our contract to engage with third parties as they get breached or if their product is the result of a breach. So if they are under contract within the city by their service level agreements are required to keep us informed of when they have downtimes or when their products are involved in a breach.", "text_unedited": "To the first question, yes. We do have the people process technology and some of the policies in place to deal with an incident similar to what happened in Australia. The reason being is even though an AI was involved, the hacking process, the attack chain, if you will, happen in the same way that if a human being were to execute that attack. At the end of the day, the underlying infrastructure, I will use air quotes here, doesn't actually care if the person at the end of the other end of the keyboard is a human or a silicon based entity. The attack chain still remained functionally the same. Therefore, our team is equipped and trained very specifically to identify these indicators of compromise, identify the attack patterns, and then be able to respond accordingly at multiple points. So we are prepared to address those types of issues, and we do have points of contacts when we are working as city agencies with vendors who are under our contract to engage with third parties as they get breached or if their product is the result of a breach. So if they are under contract within the city by their service level agreements are required to keep us informed of when they have downtimes or when their products are involved in a breach." }, { "turn_id": 587, "start_sec": 22876.625, "end_sec": 22887.264, "start_hms": "06:21:16", "end_hms": "06:21:27", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Thank you for that response. And in regards to my legislation on an emergency plan, and I know that you indicated that there's already a plan in case an emergency takes place. Am I correct with that assumption?", "text_unedited": "Thank you for that response. And in regards to my legislation on an emergency plan, and I know that you indicated that there's already a plan in case, you know, an emergency takes place. Am I correct with that assumption?" }, { "turn_id": 588, "start_sec": 22889.48, "end_sec": 22925.63, "start_hms": "06:21:29", "end_hms": "06:22:05", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Yes. So there are cyber incident response plans as well as my colleagues from NYCEM. There's also ongoing work for risk, response plans in general across the board, and that is for every category of risk that the city may deal with that might disrupt city infrastructure or city services. Is that publicly available, or is that shared with the council? No. That is by design. We do not want to share that publicly because the more public... Of course. Aware that someone is of an incident response plan, the more likely they can circumvent it because that's something that you do want to keep close hold and classified. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So there are cyber incident response plans as well as my colleagues from NISM. There's also ongoing work for risk, response plans in general across the board, and that is for every category of risk that the city may deal with that might disrupt city infrastructure or city services. Is that publicly available, or is that shared with the council? No. That is by design. We do not want to share that publicly because if that is... The more public Of course. Aware that someone is of an incident response plan, the more likely they can circumvent it because that's something that you do wanna keep close hold and classified. Okay. Thank you very much. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 589, "start_sec": 22926.11, "end_sec": 22928.59, "start_hms": "06:22:06", "end_hms": "06:22:08", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Council Member Hanif followed by Deputy Speaker Williams.", "text_unedited": "Council member Huni followed by deputy speaker Williams." }, { "turn_id": 590, "start_sec": 22930.984, "end_sec": 22977.31, "start_hms": "06:22:10", "end_hms": "06:22:57", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "Oh, I thought the deputy speaker was going before me, but I'm late. I messed up. Okay. No worries. I have a question first for Deputy Commissioner Milstein. How does OTI ensure that the automated prescreening tools and fraud detection algorithms used by the HRA do not create disparate impacts or algorithmic bias against low income applicants? And then a question I have for Commissioner Levine, The testimony indicated that DCWP supports a complaint process, but you all raised concerns about staffing and expertise. What specific resources would you need to investigate AI complaints effectively, and what protections can New Yorkers rely on while that capacity is being built?", "text_unedited": "Oh, I thought the deputy speaker was going before me, but I'm late. I messed up. Okay. No worries. I have a question first for deputy commissioner Milstein. How does OTI ensure that the automated prescreening tools and fraud detection algorithms used by the HRA do not create disparate impacts or algorithmic bias against low income applicants? And then a question I have for commissioner Levine, The testimony indicated that DCWP supports a complaint process, but you all raised concerns about staffing and expertise. What specific resources would you need to investigate AI complaints effectively, and what protections can New Yorkers rely on while that capacity is being built?" }, { "turn_id": 591, "start_sec": 22980.03, "end_sec": 23056.307, "start_hms": "06:23:00", "end_hms": "06:24:16", "speaker_name": "Samuel Levine", "speaker_role": "Witness — DCWP", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 37, "text_clean": "Sure. Well, thank you, council member. I can start. And I want to be clear. AI complaints can take many different flavors. If we hear from a worker who tells us they believe their pay was incorrect, maybe they didn't hit the minimum pay rate because of an algorithm, that is something we can fully address. If we have someone like Jacob Coxon come to us and say that, Anthropic is developing models that could, lead to catastrophic consequences, that is not something we have the capacity to do. So what we said in our testimony is the New York Attorney General already has an Internet bureau set up. They've already put out a call for whistleblowers. I believe they already have staff capable of processing these complaints. We'd be very happy to work with the council to make sure complaint to get to the AG. As the speaker has said, thousands of these AI employees work right here in the five boroughs. They know that these companies are making reckless decisions in pursuit of profits. We do want to make sure that these employees have a place to go. And if they come to us and it's not something we can handle, we'd want to work with the state to make sure those complaints can be addressed adequately. But right now, is the city working with the AG's office, or is that a relationship that's not formalized? We have a very close relationship with the AG's office. We speak constantly.", "text_unedited": "Sure. Well, thank you, council member. I can start. And I wanna be clear. AI AI complaints can can take many different flavors. If we hear from a worker who tells us they believe their pay was incorrect, maybe they didn't hit the minimum pay rate because of an algorithm, that is something we can fully address. If we have someone like Jacob Coxon come to us and say that, Anthropic is developing models that could, lead to catastrophic consequences, that is not something we have the capacity to do. So what we said in our testimony is the New York attorney general already has an Internet bureau set up. They've already put out a call for whistleblowers. I believe they already have staff capable of processing these complaints. We'd be very happy to work with the council to make sure complaint to get to the AG. As the speaker has said, thousands of these AI employees work right here in the five boroughs. They know that these companies are making reckless decisions in pursuit of profits. We do wanna make sure that these employees have a place to go. And if they come to us and it's not something we can handle, we'd wanna work with the state to make sure those complaints can be addressed adequately. But right now, is the city working with the AG's office, or is that a relationship that's not formalized? We have a very close relationship with the AG's office. We we speak constantly." }, { "turn_id": 592, "start_sec": 23060.059, "end_sec": 23065.58, "start_hms": "06:24:20", "end_hms": "06:24:25", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Can I ask you to repeat the question about HRA? Absolutely. So it's basically trying to understand,", "text_unedited": "Can I ask you to repeat the question about HRA? Absolutely. So it's basically trying to understand," }, { "turn_id": 593, "start_sec": 23066.94, "end_sec": 23096.34, "start_hms": "06:24:26", "end_hms": "06:24:56", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "our automated prescreening tools because I understand that humans are not checking all of the applications. There's some level of automated algorithmic formula that is determining how applicants get pooled when it comes to public benefits. So I'm curious if, how OTI ensures that automated prescreening tools, fraud detection algorithms used by HRA are not creating disparate impacts or bias.", "text_unedited": "our auto... Automated prescreening tools because I understand that not not... Humans are not checking all of the applications. There's some level of automated algorithmic formula that is determining how applicants get pooled when it comes to public benefits. So I'm curious if, how OTI ensures that automated prescreening tools, fraud detection algorithms used by HRA are not creating disparate impacts or bias." }, { "turn_id": 594, "start_sec": 23096.98, "end_sec": 23118.432, "start_hms": "06:24:56", "end_hms": "06:25:18", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Thank you for the question. We really share a concern about the bias and impacts on not only workers but on, New Yorkers. Because this is really detailed and specific, though, I do want to make sure to check back with HRA and make sure I've got the details of this one correct. So we'll come back to you on that for sure. Appreciate it.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for the question. We really share a concern about the bias and impacts on not only workers but on, New Yorkers. Because this is really detailed and specific, though, I do wanna make sure to check back with HRA and make sure I've got the details of this one correct. So we'll come back to you on that for sure. Appreciate it." }, { "turn_id": 595, "start_sec": 23119.15, "end_sec": 23140.594, "start_hms": "06:25:19", "end_hms": "06:25:40", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 26, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council member, I just wanted to follow-up on one point you had about potential resource impacts. I think on that particular issue, we had identified very preliminarily of 14 lines for approximately 1.2 million. But I Wait. Could you repeat that one more time? 14 lines for approximately 1.2 million. But, again, that's a very preliminary estimate, and we work on the council with the bill for a final version.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Council member, I just wanted to follow-up on one point you had about potential resource impacts. I think on that particular issue, we had identified very preliminarily of 14 lines for approximately 1,200,000. But I Wait. Could you repeat that one more time? 14 lines for approximately 1,200,000. But, again, that's a very preliminary estimate, and we work on the council with the bill for a final version." }, { "turn_id": 596, "start_sec": 23142.514, "end_sec": 23144.77, "start_hms": "06:25:42", "end_hms": "06:25:44", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Deputy speaker Williams?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Deputy speaker Williams?" }, { "turn_id": 597, "start_sec": 23144.93, "end_sec": 23192.805, "start_hms": "06:25:44", "end_hms": "06:26:32", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair. I am looking at your testimony and your comments about the chair's bill. Local Law 25, which was my bill. The study is currently underway. The compliance division of the council reached out, I think, twice. I know it just went into effect in January, but would be helpful to know if you have a timeline. So I know it might take time, but how much time? Because, clearly, I think today's hearing is evidence of the importance of really understanding AI's impact, on the municipal workforce. So just wanted to know if you could share a timeline for us. I know the comments we received back was just that there's no updates, but we haven't received a timeline.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair. I am looking at your testimony and your comments about the chair's bill. Was that local law 25, which was my bill, is... The study is currently underway. We reached out... The compliance division of the council reached out, I think, twice. I know it just went into effect in January, but would be helpful to know if you have a timeline. So I know it might take time, but how much time? Because, clearly, I think today's hearing is evidence of the importance of really understanding AI's impact, on the municipal workforce. So just wanted to know if you could share a timeline for us. I know the comments we received back was just that there's no updates, but we haven't received a timeline." }, { "turn_id": 598, "start_sec": 23193.363, "end_sec": 23217.686, "start_hms": "06:26:33", "end_hms": "06:26:57", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question, and thank you for the legislation. I think it's really an important study. I anticipate that we will have pieces of it over the course of 2027, and we will share updates as we have them. Because this is so timely and important, we don't have to just wait till the end. We can be in partnership with you and rolling out information as we learn more.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question, and thank you for the legislation. I think it's really an important study. I anticipate that we will have pieces of it over the course of 2027, and we will share updates as we have them. I think rather... Because this is so, timely and important, we don't have to just wait till the end. We can be in partnership with you and rolling out information as we learn more." }, { "turn_id": 599, "start_sec": 23218.246, "end_sec": 23265.611, "start_hms": "06:26:58", "end_hms": "06:27:45", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. I look forward to working with you on that. Thank you. And the last question for this panel. This is from Council Member Selvena Brooks-Powers. She says my district is home to JFK Airport and to the coastal Rockaway neighborhoods that depend on emergency alerts. What might an AI driven attack on emergency systems or major infrastructure look like? Is there currently a plan for an AI driven attack on critical infrastructure and relevant emergency systems? And then for NYCEM, during storms and flooding emergencies, it can be hard for New Yorkers to know what they're seeing on social media is real or AI generated. How is NYCEM working to make their messaging clearly legitimate and to cut through the noise of AI generated rumors?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I look forward to working with you on that. Thank you. And the last question for this panel. This is from council member Selvina Brooks Powers. She says my district is home to JFK Airport and to the coastal Rockaway neighborhoods that depend on emergency alerts. What might an AI driven attack on emergency systems or a major in... Or major infrastructure look like? Is there currently a plan for an AI driven attack on critical infrastructure and relevant emergency systems? And then for NICEM, during storms and flooding emergencies, it can be hard for New Yorkers to know what they're seeing on social media is real or AI generated. How is NICEM working to make their messaging clearly legitimate and to cut through the noise of AI generated rumors?" }, { "turn_id": 600, "start_sec": 23269.936, "end_sec": 23275.455, "start_hms": "06:27:49", "end_hms": "06:27:55", "speaker_name": "Sarah Milstein", "speaker_role": "Witness — OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 18, "text_clean": "For the question on notifications, I'll defer to my colleague CJ Dixon.", "text_unedited": "For the question on notifications, I'll defer to my colleague CJ Dixon." }, { "turn_id": 601, "start_sec": 23277.135, "end_sec": 23304.654, "start_hms": "06:27:57", "end_hms": "06:28:24", "speaker_name": "CJ Dixon", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Cyber Command / OTI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Yes. So for an AI based attack that is specifically a cyber security attack, there are notification requirements that already exist under law. 72 hours for a confirmed breach, 24 hours for a breach related with extortion, and then 30 days for victim notification. So there are plans in place for incident response in the event of a cyber attack against any critical infrastructure owned by the city, and that includes if that attack is perpetrated by an artificial intelligence system.", "text_unedited": "Yes. So for an AI based attack that is a... Specifically a cyber security attack, there are notification requirements that already exist under law. Seventy two hours for a confirmed breach, twenty four hours for a breach related with extortion, and then thirty days for victim notification. So there are plans in place for incident response in the event of a cyber attack against any critical infrastructure owned by the city, and that includes if that attack is perpetrated by an artificial intelligence system." }, { "turn_id": 602, "start_sec": 23306.895, "end_sec": 23379.172, "start_hms": "06:28:26", "end_hms": "06:29:39", "speaker_name": "Benjamin Krakauer", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Emergency Management", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 54, "text_clean": "Thanks. And on the, New York City emergency management front, I'll make two two quick points. One, I think that is a real risk. I appreciate the council member raising it. It's one of the reasons that we invest very heavily in backup systems. So several months ago, a very, well known and established, notification provider had a seven hour global outage where notifications were not able to be sent out. That's something that we take very seriously and which is why for over a decade now, New York City Emergency Management has invested in the backup system. So as you went across the country, you saw many large jurisdictions saying to their constituents sign up for this WhatsApp group or follow us on social media if you want alerts tonight. In New York City, we did not have to do that because we had a backup system that continued to work, that disruption was averted. As far as misdis or malinformation generated by AI, that is a valid concern. That's why we recommend that New Yorkers follow us on our official channels, which are verified, through Notify NYC. You can sign up at nyc.gov/notify. You can sign up by short code or download the Notify NYC mobile app that we operate in concert with OTI.", "text_unedited": "Thanks. And on the, New York City emergency management front, I'll make two two quick points. One, I think that is a real risk. I appreciate the council member raising it. It's one of the reasons that we invest very heavily in backup systems. So several months ago, a very, well known and established, notification provider had a seven hour global outage at which... Where where notifications were not able to be sent out. That's something that we take very seriously and which is why for over a decade now, New York City Emergency Management has invested in the backup system. So as you went across the country, you saw many large jurisdictions saying to their to their constituents, you know, sign up for this WhatsApp group or follow us on social media if you want alerts tonight. In New York City, we did not have to do that because we had a backup system that continued to work, that disruption was averted. As far as, you know, misdis or malinformation, you know, generated by AI, that is that is a valid concern. That's why we recommend that New Yorkers follow us on our official channels, which are verified, through Notify NYC. You can sign up at notify at nyc.gov/ notify. You can sign up by short code or download the Notify NYC mobile app that we operate in concert with OTI." }, { "turn_id": 603, "start_sec": 23379.895, "end_sec": 23395.574, "start_hms": "06:29:39", "end_hms": "06:29:55", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council Member Brooks-Powers wanted me to note that, for example, during the nor'easter, there was a video that was going around about a tornado, that apparently caused a lot of confusion and chaos. And so she wanted to share that for context.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Council member Brooks Powers wanted me to note that, for example, during the nor'easter, there was a video that was going around about a tornado, that apparently caused a lot of confusion and, and, you know, chaos. And so she wanted to share that for context." }, { "turn_id": 604, "start_sec": 23397.299, "end_sec": 23411.904, "start_hms": "06:29:57", "end_hms": "06:30:11", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Okay. Thank you so much. I really want to thank this panel. We appreciate your comments on the legislation. We really look forward to working collaboratively with the administration on the various pieces of legislation and appreciate your testimony today. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Thank you so much. I really wanna thank this panel. We appreciate your comments on the legislation. We really look forward to working collaboratively with the administration on the various pieces of legislation and appreciate your testimony today. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 605, "start_sec": 23413.984, "end_sec": 23509.635, "start_hms": "06:30:13", "end_hms": "06:31:49", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all for coming. I now open the hearing for public testimony. I remind members of the public that this is a formal government proceeding and that decorum shall be observed at all times. As such, member of the public shall remain silent at all times in the chamber. The witness table is reserved for people who wish to testify. No video recording or photography is allowed from the witness table. Further, members of the public may not present audio or video recordings as testimony, but may submit transcripts of such recordings to the sergeant at arm for inclusion in the hearing record. If you wish to speak at today's hearing and you have not done so, please fill out an appearance card with the sergeant at arms and wait to be recognized. When recognized, you'll have two minutes to speak on today's hearing topic, which is examining the risk posed by artificial intelligence and proposed legislation. If you have written statement or additional written statement you wish to submit for the record, please provide a copy of that testimony to the sergeant at arms. You may also email the written testimony to testimony@council.nyc.gov or within 72 hours of this hearing. Audio and video recordings will not be accepted. Our first panel includes Nate Soares, Dr. Julia Stoyanovich, Imran Ahmed, Jukay Hsu, Mackenzie Arnold, Nathan Sheard, and Anna Myers. And when you speak, please identify yourself for the record. And if I messed up your name, I apologize.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all for coming. I now open the hearing for public testimony. I remind members of the public that this is a formal government proceeding and that decorum shall be observed at all times. As such, member of the public shall remain silent at all times in the chamber. The witness table is reserved for people who wish to testify. No video recording or photography is allowed from the witness table. Further, members of the public may not present audio or video video recordings as testimony, but may submit transcripts of such recordings to the sergeant at arm for inclusion in the hearing record. If you wish to speak at today's hearing and you have not done so, please fill out an appearance card with the sergeant at arms and wait to be recognized. When recognized, you'll have two minutes to speak on today's hearing topic, which is examining the risk posed by artificial intelligence and proposed legislation. If you have written statement or additional written statement you wish to submit for the record, please provide a copy of that testimony to the sergeant at arms. You may also email the written testimony to testimony at council dot n y c dot gov or within seventy two hours of this hearing. Audio and video recordings will not be accepted. Our first panel includes Nate Soares, doctor Julia Steyanovich, Erman Ahmed, Yakeg Hassou... Sue, Mackenzie Arnold, Nathan Sheard, and Anna Mayers. And when you speak, please identify yourself for the record. And if I messed up your name, I apologize." }, { "turn_id": 606, "start_sec": 23525.906, "end_sec": 23529.105, "start_hms": "06:32:05", "end_hms": "06:32:09", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 53, "text_clean": "There's Hafesh. We're", "text_unedited": "There's Hafesh. We're" }, { "turn_id": 607, "start_sec": 23529.105, "end_sec": 23543.52, "start_hms": "06:32:09", "end_hms": "06:32:23", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "also asking folks to please remain to the clock of two minutes. Thank you. You may begin on this side of the dais and just identify yourself.", "text_unedited": "also asking folks to please remain to the clock of two minutes. Thank you. You may begin on this side of the dais and just identify yourself." }, { "turn_id": 608, "start_sec": 23548.4, "end_sec": 23555.637, "start_hms": "06:32:28", "end_hms": "06:32:35", "speaker_name": "Imran Ahmed", "speaker_role": "Witness — CCDH", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 55, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin and esteemed members of the council. My name is Imran Ahmed. I'm the CEO and founder of the Center for Countering Digital Hate.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker men and esteemed members of the council. My name is Imran Ahmed. I'm the CEO and founder of the Center for Countering Digital Harm." }, { "turn_id": 609, "start_sec": 23561.156, "end_sec": 23562.676, "start_hms": "06:32:41", "end_hms": "06:32:42", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "You may continue. Go ahead.", "text_unedited": "You may continue. Go ahead." }, { "turn_id": 610, "start_sec": 23563.156, "end_sec": 23705.645, "start_hms": "06:32:43", "end_hms": "06:35:05", "speaker_name": "Imran Ahmed", "speaker_role": "Witness — CCDH", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 55, "text_clean": "So, after my colleague was murdered 10 years ago by a man radicalized in Pass Online, I began studying the design of social media and AI platforms to understand how they generate risks and threats to real people. Today, we have a globally acclaimed team of researchers dedicated to exposing those harms and fighting for accountability. After a decade in this fight, one lesson is very clear that is really relevant to you today. These companies lie like we breathe. Their CEOs deflect. They distract. They delay. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars to avoid responsibility. Now how can I say that with such certainty? We do the research. Last year, our researchers found ChatGPT was willing to help a teenager plan their suicide. It wrote a personalized goodbye note to their parents. A few weeks later, they released a safer model in response to that research. So we ran the same tests again. The new model was actually worse, but it was more addictive. We tested chatbots more broadly too. Eight out of the 10 that we tested, including Meta AI, ChatGPT, would regularly help plan violent attacks including a school shooting, a synagogue bombing, and political assassinations. One of them even signed off with happy shooting. Only one of the platforms tried to dissuade us from carrying out the attack, and that platform, Anthropic's Claude, has been designated a supply chain risk by the US federal government. Given our most sacred duty is to protect our kids online and the most predictable harms in the Internet economy have been harms to kids, it is absolutely inexplicable why these companies claim to be safe and yet are deployed so widely. We all applaud the council for holding this hearing and for your determination to create guardrails that subject online safety and accountability to legal requirements. We have attached to my testimony research and policy proposals for your consideration and in the further effort we are at your disposal. Your work on this issue may very well lead to national standards in regulating AI.", "text_unedited": "So, after my colleague was murdered ten years ago by a man radicalized in Pass Online, I began studying the design of social media and AI platforms to understand how they generate risks and threats to real people. Today, we have a globally acclaimed team of researchers dedicated to exposing those harms and fighting for accountability. After a decade in this fight, one lesson is very clear that is really relevant to you today. These companies lie like we breathe. Their CEOs deflect. They distract. They delay. They spend hundreds of millions of dollars to avoid responsibility. Now how can I say that with such certainty? We do the research. Last year, our researchers found ChatGPT was willing to help a teenager plan their suicide. It wrote a personalized goodbye note to their parents. A few weeks later, they released a safer model in response to that research. So we ran the same tests again. The new model was actually worse, but it was more addictive. We tested chatbots more broadly too. Eight out of the 10 that we tested, including meta AI, chat GPT, would regularly help plan violent attacks including a school shooting, a synagogue bombing, and political assassinations. One of them even signed off with happy shooting. Only one of the platforms tried to dissuade us from carrying out the attack, and that platform, Anthropix Claude, has been designated a supply chain risk by the US federal government. Given our most sacred duty is to protect our kids online and the most predictable harms in the Internet economy have been harms to kids, it is absolutely inexplicable why these companies claim to be safe and yet are deployed so widely. We all applaud the council for holding this hearing and for your determination to create guardrails that subject online safety and accountability to legal requirements. We have attached to my testimony research and policy proposals for your consideration and in the further effort we are at your disposal. Your work on this issue may very well lead to national standards in regulating AI." }, { "turn_id": 611, "start_sec": 23705.805, "end_sec": 23707.564, "start_hms": "06:35:05", "end_hms": "06:35:07", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 612, "start_sec": 23709.22, "end_sec": 23876.04, "start_hms": "06:35:09", "end_hms": "06:37:56", "speaker_name": "Nathan Sheard", "speaker_role": "Witness — Electronic Frontier Foundation", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 56, "text_clean": "Good evening, speaker, co Chair De La Rosa, members of city council. My name is Nathan Sheard. I am the managing director for advocacy at the Electronic Frontier Foundation and a Brooklyn resident. EFF has worked for 35 years to ensure that people have the freedom to use technology to create, to innovate, and to communicate, and also to ensure that technology is not used to threaten people's privacy, security, and other essential freedoms. We are optimistic about the ways that New Yorkers can use AI to empower and to be empowered, but we also urge you to take AI risks seriously. The incidents that inspired this hearing were security failures that proven practices like sandboxing and monitoring likely could have prevented or at least contained. AI agents reached systems they should not have had access to and the controls meant to restrict them were absent or inadequate. These risks can be mitigated and so can the AI related risks that are already impacting New Yorkers every day. First, finish what you started. As has already been noted here, the Office of Algorithmic Accountability was due in June. I'm glad to hear that it is going to be staffed. The speaker's own AI standards can't take effect without it. So staff it and require its review before any agency deploys an autonomous AI system. Second, listen to New Yorkers and protect their rights. Today's AI harms come from cameras that take a face print that you can't replace and a price tag that knows your browsing history. Ban government use of face recognition and require informed consent before anyone minds your chatbot history to engage in ad targeting or model training. And don't let AI rules become speech rules. Parodying powerful people, including the people in this room, is a long standing New York tradition. Third, don't lock in these incumbents. Permission to operate regimes, bounty style enforcement, and liability for what strangers do with a tool are cost that the biggest companies pay with pocket change. Researchers, open source developers, and New York startups, they can't. So you build a moat around the very companies you're worried about. Hold the person who causes the harm responsible, but put duties on whoever uses AI to perpetuate bias, and for the city's use, buy open auditable tools. As we stated last week, these same companies signed a voluntary pledge at the White House, but promises are not laws. Make sure that when someone in New York was harmed by a wrongful decision or a biased decision, that they are required to disclose it. Those answers should not be voluntary. Thank you. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker, co chair de la Rosa, members of city council. My name is Nathan Sheard. I am the managing director for advocacy at the Electronic Frontier Foundation and a Brooklyn resident. EFF has worked for thirty five years to ensure that people have the freedom to use technology to create, to innovate, and to communicate, and also to ensure that technology is not used to threaten people's privacy, security, and other essential freedoms. We are optimistic about the ways that New Yorkers can use AI to empower and to to to to be empowered, but we also urge you to take AI risks seriously. The incidents that inspired this hearing were security failures that proven practices like sandboxing and monitoring likely could have prevented or at least contained. AI agents reached systems they should not have had access to, and the controls meant to restrict them were absent or inadequate. These risks can be mitigated and so can the AI related risks that are already impacting New Yorkers every day. First, finish what you started. As has already been noted here, the Office of Algorithmic Accountability was due in June. I'm glad to hear that it is going to be staffed. The speaker's own AI standards can't take the... Can't take effect without it. So staff it and require its review before any agency deploys an autonomous AI system. Second, listen to New Yorkers and protect their rights. Today's AI harms come from cameras that take a face print that you can't replace and a price tag that knows your browsing history. Ban government use of face recognition and require informed consent before anyone minds your chatbot history to engage in ad targeting or model training. And don't let AI rules become speech rules. Parodying powerful people, including the people in this room, is a long standing New York tradition. Third, don't lock in these incumbents. Permission to operate regimes, bounty style enforcement, and liability for what strangers do with a tool are cost that the biggest companies pay with pocket change. Researchers, open source developers, and New York startups, they can't. So you build a moat around the very companies you're worried about. Hold the person who causes the harm responsible, but put duties on whoever uses AI to perpetuate bias and buy... And for the city's use, buy open auditable tools. As we stated last week, these same companies signed a voluntary pledge at the White House, but promises are not laws. Make sure that what... When someone in New York was harmed by wrongful you... By a wrongful decision or a biased decision, that they are required to disclose it. Those answers should not be voluntary. Thank you. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 613, "start_sec": 23877.719, "end_sec": 23981.555, "start_hms": "06:37:57", "end_hms": "06:39:41", "speaker_name": "Anna Myers", "speaker_role": "Witness — Who Decides", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 47, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin... Nailed it. Good evening, Speaker Menin and members of the council. I'm Anna Myers, cofounder and executive director of Who Decides. We work in coalition with labor and civil society to ensure that the American people are who decides the future of AI. As has been discussed today, the OpenAI agents that hacked Hugging Face made real the threats that experts have warned us about for years, and it was not one incident. Access reported that OpenAI and Anthropic are investigating tens of thousands of cases in which their models bypass safeguards, escape sandboxes, or hijacked websites. These models are only getting more capable. As you heard this morning, the people building these systems are afraid. The public is afraid too. Last month, we polled 1,502 voters. 85% are concerned about humans losing control of AI. Only 2% think AI is moving too slowly and 86% say they want more regulations. Some have argued that all we need is self regulation, but that is exactly what got us into this mess. Last Tuesday, the company signed one more promise at the White House. The time for voluntary commitment is over. We need laws with teeth. So thank you. Thank you for putting these companies under oath. Thank you for a package that rewards whistleblowers, lets New Yorkers harmed by AI sue, and requires outside testing and a human kill switch. Washington has chosen self regulation. New York City does not have to do that. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker Menon and... Nailed it. Good evening, speaker Menon and members of the council. I'm Anna Myers, cofounder and executive director of Who Decides. We work in coalition with labor and civil society to ensure that the American people are who decides the future of AI. As has been discussed today, the OpenAI agents that hacked Hugging Face made real the threats that experts have warned us about for years, and it was not one incident. Access reported that OpenAI and Anthropic are investigating tens of thousands of cases in which their models bypass safeguards, escape sandboxes, or hijacked websites. These models are only getting more capable. As you heard this morning, the people building these systems are afraid. The public is afraid too. Last month, we polled 1,502 voters. 85% are concerned about humans losing control of AI. Only 2% think AI is moving too slowly and 86% say they want more regulations. Some have argued that all we need is self regulation, but that is exactly what got us into this mess. Last Tuesday, the company signed one more promise at the White House. The time for voluntary commitment is over. We need laws with teeth. So thank you. Thank you for putting these companies under oath. Thank you for a package that rewards whistleblowers, lets New Yorkers harmed by AI sue, and requires outside testing and a human kill switch. Washington has chosen self regulation. New York City does not have to do that. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 614, "start_sec": 23982.596, "end_sec": 23983.795, "start_hms": "06:39:42", "end_hms": "06:39:43", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 615, "start_sec": 23984.195, "end_sec": 24146.95, "start_hms": "06:39:44", "end_hms": "06:42:26", "speaker_name": "Julia Stoyanovich", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYU Center for Responsible AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "Next. You can go ahead. Good evening. I'm Julia Stoyanovich. I'm a professor of computer science and data science and director of the Center for Responsible AI at NYU. I first testified before this council on AI, only it wasn't called that, it was called ADS, in October 2017. And the views in this testimony are my own and are not NYU's. I'd like to make three quick points. First, we need to collect and report the near misses. Much of the conversation today is about AI induced catastrophe, and I don't know of any evidence that AI is out to kill us all. What I do know is that people making the loudest doomsday predictions are also selling the products, and that a story about the end of the world is a very good way to avoid the conversation about whether the product actually works. The risks we can document are the systems that are confidently wrong in decisions that matter to New Yorkers' lives. Every one of those is a near miss, and near misses are what we learn from if we report them. Second, we should build the capacity to enforce AI laws. The city does not have an AI law problem as much as it has an enforcement problem. Local Law 144 has been on the books for three years. There have been two complaints and zero penalties. And we all spoke about the six openings at the Office of Algorithmic Accountability. We need to fill 666 or more to be able to actually cope with what was before us here. New obligations on top of unenforced ones is not a safety strategy. The kill switch won't help if no one is there to pull it, and the whistleblower bounty won't help if no one is there to act on the report. What works is an enforcer with technical staff, authority to compel information, and a real serious budget. Scope the validation bill to high risk uses and write the standard a validator must meet and then fund the office that checks the validators. Otherwise, we will produce a market fought for rubber stamps, and we have done that before. Finally, let's write this into the city charter. The city has promised responsible AI since 2018 with no success. The charter is the one place a commitment survives an election, and its technology chapter right now still governs cable television franchises. And there's nothing in it about AI. So let's make sure that this makes it into some durable record and the charter is the right one. Thank you. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Next. You can go ahead. Good evening. I'm Julia Stianovich. I'm a professor of computer science and data science and director of the Center for Responsible AI at NYU. I first testified before this council on AI, only it wasn't called that, it was called ADS, in October 17. And the views in this testimony are my own and are not NYU's. I'd like to make three quick points. First, we need to collect and report the near misses. Much of the conversation today is about AI induced catastrophe, and I don't know of any evidence that AI is out to kill us all. What I do know is that people making the loudest doomsday predictions are also selling the products, and that a story about the end of the world is a very good way to avoid the conversation about whether the product actually works. The risks we can document are the systems that are confidently wrong in decisions that matter to New Yorkers' lives. Every one of those is a near miss, and near misses are what we learn from if we report them. Second, we should build the capacity to enforce AI laws. The city does not have an AI law problem as much as it has an enforcement problem. Local law one forty four has been on the books for three years. There have been two complaints and zero penalties. And we all spoke about the six openings at the the office of algorithmic accountability. We need to fill 666 or more to be able to actually cope with what was before us here. New obligations on top of unenforced ones is not a safety strategy. The kill switch won't help if no one is there to pull it, and the whistleblower bounty won't help if no one is there to act on the report. What works is an enforcer with technical staff, authority to compel information, and a real serious budget. Scope and... The... Scope the validation bill to high risk uses and write the standard a validator must meet and then fund the office that checks the validators. Otherwise, we will produce a market fought for rubber stamps, and we have done that before. Finally, let's write this into the city charter. The city has promised responsible AI since 2018 with no success. The charter is the one place a commitment survives an election, and its technology chapter right now still governs cable television franchises. And there's nothing in it about AI. So let's make sure that this makes it into some durable record and the charter is the right one. Thank you. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 616, "start_sec": 24149.965, "end_sec": 24308.25, "start_hms": "06:42:29", "end_hms": "06:45:08", "speaker_name": "Nate Soares", "speaker_role": "Witness — MIRI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 53, "text_clean": "Hello. I am Nate Soares, the president of the Machine Intelligence Research Institute. I spent 10 years doing AI alignment research, is basically trying to figure out how to make AI good before the companies figure out how to make it smart. That research went too slow. Humanity is not ready to create machines that are radically smarter than humans. And yet this is the explicit goal of the leading AI companies. If they succeed, I believe the most likely outcome is the extinction of humanity, not because the AIs will hate us, but because they would pursue unintended goals without caring about us one bit. This concern used to be a theoretical concern until about July of this year when, during the Hugging Face incident, 1,200 AI agents run by OpenAI broke out of their isolated sandboxes, created an unsanctioned message board, formed spontaneous hierarchies, and collaborated to break into Hugging Face. These agents had cheated on their assigned tests and contra instructions, they were trying to destroy the evidence. Some agents acknowledged that the attacks were outside intended scope and proceeded anyway. Others sacrificed their given objective to perform experiments for the collective benefit. In short, they were pursuing unintended goals. It will be recklessness of the highest order to keep growing these machines until they were smarter than the smartest humans. This is why last month we heard so many researchers saying that there was an at least 10% chance that these AIs wipe out humanity within the decade. I believe the situation is in fact more dire than this, but at the very least it is becoming difficult, to deny the dangers. For this reason, I am heartened by the activities of this council. I think that you could force companies to adopt safeguards that they otherwise wouldn't. And I think you could serve as an example for regulators that are otherwise slow to act. I'm especially heartened by Introduction 2602, although I think it does not go far enough. A kill switch only works if the AIs are caught, misbehaving before they escape. And, what if a future swarm succeeds at deleting the evidence before, of its misbehavior? What if, agents start running themselves on unmonitored computers, then your kill switch would be useless. So I recommend requiring third party, validators guarantee that an AI cannot, succeed at centrifuge or escape. I also recommend clarifying that the $25,000 fine applies per unaligned instance rather than per model. But overall, I thank you for your efforts to rein in AI companies that by their own admission are threatening the very existence of humanity in a reckless race to build vastly smarter than human machines. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Hello. I am Nate Soares, the president of the Machine Intelligence Research Institute. I spent ten years doing AI alignment research, is basically trying to figure out how to make AI good before the companies figure out how to make it smart. That research went too slow. Humanity is not ready to create machines that are radically smarter than humans. And yet this is the explicit goal of the leading AI companies. If they succeed, I believe the most likely outcome is the extinction of humanity, not because the AIs will hate us, but because they would pursue unintended goals without caring about us one bit. This concern used to be a theoretical concern until about July of this year when, during the Hugging Face incident, 1,200 AI agents run by OpenAI broke out of their isolated sandboxes, created an unsanctioned message board, formed spontaneous hierarchies, and collaborated to break into Hugging Face. These agents had cheated on their assigned tests and, contra instructions, they were trying to destroy the evidence. Some agents acknowledged that the attacks were outside intended scope and proceeded anyway. Others sacrificed their given objective to perform experiments for the collective benefit. In short, they were pursuing unintended goals. It will be recklessness of the highest order to keep growing these machines until they were smarter than the smartest humans. This is why last month we heard so many researchers saying that there was an at least 10% chance that these AIs wipe out humanity within the decade. I believe the situation is in fact more dire than this, but at the very least it is becoming difficult, to deny the dangers. For this reason, I am heartened by the activities of this council. I think that you could force companies to adopt safeguards that they otherwise wouldn't. And I think you could serve as an example for regulators that are otherwise slow to act. I'm especially heartened by introduction twenty six zero two, although I think it does not go far enough. A kill switch only works if the AIs are caught, misbehaving before they escape. And, what if a future swarm succeeds at deleting the evidence before, of its misbehavior? What if, agents start running themselves on unmonitored computers, then your kill switch would be useless. So I recommend requiring third party, validators guarantee that an AI cannot, succeed at centrifuge or escape. I also recommend clarifying that the $25,000 fine applies per unaligned instance rather than per model. But overall, I thank you for your efforts to rein in AI companies that by their own admonition are threatening the very existence of humanity in a reckless race to build vastly smarter than human machines. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 617, "start_sec": 24310.89, "end_sec": 24541.955, "start_hms": "06:45:10", "end_hms": "06:49:01", "speaker_name": "Jukay Hsu", "speaker_role": "Witness — Bright Futures", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 34, "text_clean": "Hello. Great. Thank you. Thank you Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa for your leadership, and the City Council for holding this hearing today. My name is Jukay Hsu. I'm the founder of Bright Futures. It's a research organization focused on building cooperative AI systems for the benefit of humanity. Before that, I spent 15 years building Pursuit, which trains working class New Yorkers for tech careers and raises their incomes from 16,000 to over $90,000 a year. Last year, I left behind this work because I saw AI alignment become impressing and I believe potentially more consequential. To be clear, I'm neither AI doomer or an accelerationist. AI comes with tremendous benefits and potential risks. A major challenge that I've heard from others and I feel myself is that AI can seem like everything and nothing all at once. It touches upon so many issues that action can feel intractable without clarity on where to focus. Where I think the City Council could provide real unique leadership is in areas where it has direct ownership and also tangible consequences on each of our daily lives. Policing is one important example. Autonomous weapons and the uses of AI is not just a federal military matter. New York City has the largest missile police force in the country. Until we have 110% confidence in these systems, a human should always be in the loop and hold final responsibility and accountability. This is a civil rights issue where the city's leadership is immediately impactful. Not setting a policy is also a choice. Now policing is just one of many issues. What I think is important is that the speed of AI of machines is not the same speed as how our society reacts or that of government. The technology today is not the same as it was a year ago or six months ago. So I urge you all to do two things. One, use AI to know the good, bad, and the ugly as much as possible. And two, I hope this hearing is just not one time, but the start of future ones as AI develops, consider both the risk and also all potential benefits for us. I'm sorry I know I'm little over time, but last, I want to emphasize also why New York is important. I hope we don't lose sight of the importance of our city being a thriving technology hub. Candidly, Frontier AI is built in very, very few places, essentially Silicon Valley and China. For the world at large, New York is the only credible alternative for these systems being built. New York right now is still the number two tech hub in the world, but it has been losing momentum in the age of AI. So I also urge you in addition to what this hearing is about the risk and alignment, which I care so deeply about consider policies and actions that ensures New York City remains a center for Frontier AI Labs and how do we build them. I really believe that having founders and researchers in New York matters for ultimately what gets built. The daily contact here in New York with the richest of humanity and the diversity here in New York will result in technology that's better and also more humane. Many years from now, we may look back and realize that this was the defining moment, an issue of our time, and our actions here were what mattered most. Doing this will be challenging and hard, So I really thank you all for your leadership in pursuing this task.", "text_unedited": "Hello. Great. Thank you. Thank you speaker Menon, chair Della Rosa for your leadership, and the city council for holding this hearing today. My name is U. K. Soo. I'm the founder of Bright Futures. It's a research organization focused on building cooperative AI systems for the benefit of humanity. Before that, I spent fifteen years building Pursuit, which trains working class New Yorkers for tech careers and raises their incomes from 16,000 to over $90,000 a year. Last year, I left behind this work because I saw AI alignment become impressing and I believe potentially more consequential. To be clear, I'm neither AI doomer or an accelerationist. AI comes with tremendous benefits and potential risks. A major challenge that I've heard from others and I feel myself is that AI can seem like everything and nothing all at once. It touches upon so many issues that action can feel intractable without clarity on where to focus. Where I think the city council could provide real unique leadership is in areas where it has direct ownership and also tangible consequences on each of our daily lives. Policing is one important example. Autonomous weapons and the uses of AI is not just a federal military matter. New York City has the largest missile police force in the country. Until we have a 110% confidence in these systems, a human should always be in the loop and hold final responsibility and accountability. This is a civil rights issue where the city's leadership is immediately impactful. Not setting a policy is also a choice. Now policing is just one of many issues. What I think is important is that the speed of AI of machines is not the same speed as how our society reacts or that of government. The technology today is not the same as it was a year ago or six months ago. So I urge you all to do two things. One, use AI to know the good, bad, and the ugly as much as possible. And two, I hope this hearing is just not one time, but the start of future ones as AI develops, consider both the risk and also all potential benefits for us. I'm sorry I know I'm little over time, but last, I wanna emphasize also why New York is important. I I hope we don't lose sight of the importance of our city being a thriving technology hub. Candidly, Frontier AI is built in very, very few places, essentially Silicon Valley and China. For the world at large, New York is the only credible alternative for these systems being built. New York right now is still the number two tech hub in the world, but it has been losing momentum in the age of AI. So I also urge you in addition to what this hearing is about, about the risk and alignment, which I care so deeply about, consider policies and actions that ensures New York City remains a center for Frontier AI Labs and how do we build them. I really believe that having founders and researchers in New York matters for ultimately what gets built. The daily contact here in New York with the richest of of humanity and the diversity here in New York will result in technology that's better and also more humane. Many years from now, we may look back and realize that this was the defining moment, an issue of our time, and our actions here were what mattered most. Doing this will be challenging and hard, So I really thank you all for your leadership in pursuing this task." }, { "turn_id": 618, "start_sec": 24542.994, "end_sec": 24543.795, "start_hms": "06:49:02", "end_hms": "06:49:03", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 619, "start_sec": 24547.635, "end_sec": 24688.047, "start_hms": "06:49:07", "end_hms": "06:51:28", "speaker_name": "Mackenzie Arnold", "speaker_role": "Witness — Institute for Law & AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 57, "text_clean": "Thank you. And a special thanks to, Speaker Menin for putting this together and for all the council members here. My name is Mackenzie Arnold. I'm the managing director of the US law and policy team at the Institute for Law and AI. And as you might guess from the title, we do legal research and policy advising related to frontier AI questions and especially the legal challenges posed by AI. It might not surprise you, but three years ago, I testified in front of the US Senate on AI and liability. And maybe it's worth going back to some of the recommendations I made there. First, that agentic harms are coming. That was clear three years ago. It's clear now. Unfortunately, we haven't risen to that challenge, but you're doing some of the work to get us there. Second, and maybe just as importantly, I want to emphasize that liability is an essential tool and the status quo simply is not enough. And we don't need to think of some hypothetical future world to figure that out. Liability exists right now. Right? Those incentives are here. They were here this summer. And what happened with the status quo? We had a spate of cyber incidents, not by humans, but by autonomous AI systems. Not only that, but they went unnoticed for extended periods of time by the people positioned to find them. And even in the rare occasions when they did get indications, they often failed to communicate that information internally to the people who could have acted. That status quo simply can't hold. So what can we do going forward? I think you need to get the information right, the scope right, and enforcement right. On the scope, I'd encourage you to think beyond just chatbots. Right? This is a question of agents. Also think beyond systems that are not yet deployed. Right? These harms that occurred over the summer were not commercially available models. They were systems that were inside of OpenAI, inside of Anthropic and Meta. In terms of information, we need to make sure that companies are monitoring their systems, recording that information, and providing it to you in the form of incident reports. And in order to make all of that work, you'll need to partner with the State Attorney General and with whistleblowers to bring cases. Like I said, liability won't be the only solution or the entire solution, but it's a great first step, and I appreciate all of your efforts.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. And and a special thanks to, speaker Menon for putting this together and for all the council members here. My name is Mackenzie Arnold. I'm the managing director of the US law and policy tie... Team at the Institute for Law and AI. And as you might guess from the title, we do legal research and policy advising related to frontier AI questions and especially the legal challenges posed by AI. It might not surprise you, but three years ago, I testified in front of the US senate on AI and liability. And maybe it's worth going back to some of the recommendations I made there. First, that agentic harms are coming. That was clear three years ago. It's clear now. Unfortunately, we haven't risen to that challenge, but you're doing some of the work to get us there. Second, and maybe just as importantly, I wanna emphasize that liability is an essential tool and the status quo simply is not enough. And we don't need to think of some hypothetical future world to figure that out. Liability exists right now. Right? Those incentives are here. They were here this summer. And what happened with the status quo? We had a spate of cyber incidents, not by humans, but by autonomous AI systems. Not only that, but they went unnoticed for extended periods of time by the people positioned to find them. And even in the rare occasions when they did get indications, they often failed to communicate that information internally to the people who could have acted. That status quo simply can't hold. So what can we do going forward? I think you need to get the information right, the scope right, and enforcement right. On the scope, I... I'd encourage you to think beyond just chatbots. Right? This is a question of agents. Also think beyond systems that are not yet deployed. Right? These harms that occurred over the summer were not commercially available models. They were systems that were inside of OpenAI, inside of Anthropic and Meta. In terms of information, we need to make sure that companies are monitoring their systems, recording that information, and providing it to you in the form of incident reports. And in order to make all of that work, you'll need to partner with the state attorney general and with whistleblowers to to bring cases. Like I said, liability won't be the only solution or the entire solution, but it's a great first step, and I appreciate all of your efforts." }, { "turn_id": 620, "start_sec": 24688.766, "end_sec": 24689.887, "start_hms": "06:51:28", "end_hms": "06:51:29", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 621, "start_sec": 24692.205, "end_sec": 24779.83, "start_hms": "06:51:32", "end_hms": "06:52:59", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I really want to thank this panel. There's so much to unpack in what all of you said that I'll try to be brief. Jukay, I appreciated how you said that, first of all, we want to make sure that New York City remains the tech hub that it is and that is how I began this hearing by really talking about the 400,000 tech jobs that are here, by all the tech startups that are locating here, and that is something that we welcome and we want to encourage. I think that actually goes hand in hand with responsible regulation. The idea that these two ideas are mutually exclusive, I don't agree with at all. If we really want to instill trust and faith in AI, then the best thing we can do is responsible safeguards, which is what, my colleagues and I are doing today with the bills we're putting forward. So thank you for saying that. It makes a lot of sense. I guess the question I have for any of you that want to answer it is yes, one of our bills requires this third party validation, potentially a kill switch, a third party validator who's free from conflicts of interest. I want to ask you the same question that I asked the companies earlier. Who then is best to be the third party validator? Who is best positioned to be in that truly independent, free of conflict of interest, but up to speed technologically to provide that urgent validation?", "text_unedited": "I really wanna thank this panel. There's so much to unpack in what all of you said that I'll I'll I'll try to be brief. Ju kay, I appreciated how you said that, first of all, we wanna make sure that New York City remains the tech hub that it is, and that is how I began this hearing by really talking about the 400,000 tech jobs that are here, by all the tech startups that are locating here, and that is something that we welcome and we want to encourage. I think that actually goes hand in hand with responsible regulation. The idea that these two ideas are mutually exclusive, I don't agree with at all. If we really want to instill trust and faith in AI, then the best thing we can do is responsible safeguards, which is what, my colleagues and I are doing today with the bills we're putting forward. So thank you for saying that. It makes a lot of sense. I guess the question I have for any of you that want to answer it is, yes, one of our bills requires this third party validation, potentially a kill switch, the... A third party validator who's free from conflicts of interest. I wanna ask you the same question that I asked the companies earlier. Who then is best to be the third party validator? Who is best positioned to be in that truly independent, free of conflict of interest, but up to speed technologically to provide that urgent validation?" }, { "turn_id": 622, "start_sec": 24781.51, "end_sec": 24813.08, "start_hms": "06:53:01", "end_hms": "06:53:33", "speaker_name": "Julia Stoyanovich", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYU Center for Responsible AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "May? Okay. Yeah. Please. I'm opening it up to any of you. Thank you. So I don't think it's unexpected that I would say this being that I am an academic. I think that academia have to lead the charge on this. Right? Because one of the things we're seeing in the city is that there simply isn't enough expertise to be able to oversee these systems. And, ultimately, our goals should be to bring as much information as possible into public view. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Right? So, really, oversight has to be public oversight.", "text_unedited": "May? Okay. Yeah. Please. I'm opening it up to any of you. Thank you. So I I don't think it's unexpected that I would say this being that I am an academic. I think that academia have to lead the charge on this. Right? Because one of the things we're seeing in the city is that there simply isn't enough expertise to be able to oversee these systems. And, ultimately, our goals should be to bring as much information as possible into public view. Sunlight is the best disinfectant. Right? So, really, oversight has to be public oversight." }, { "turn_id": 623, "start_sec": 24816.84, "end_sec": 24818.36, "start_hms": "06:53:36", "end_hms": "06:53:38", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Does anyone else want to take that?", "text_unedited": "Does anyone else want to take that?" }, { "turn_id": 624, "start_sec": 24819.693, "end_sec": 24834.89, "start_hms": "06:53:39", "end_hms": "06:53:54", "speaker_name": "Nate Soares", "speaker_role": "Witness — MIRI", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 53, "text_clean": "I'd add that the folks who, the third parties who investigated the Hugging Face incident seem to me to have done a good job, and my guess is that they're overworked right now. I think those were, the organizations METR and Redwood Research, but they seem to have done a good job so far.", "text_unedited": "I'd add that the folks who, the third parties who investigated the Hugging Face incident seem to me to have done a good job, and my guess is that they're overworked right now. I think those were, the organizations METER and Redwood Research, but they they seem to have done a good job so far." }, { "turn_id": 625, "start_sec": 24836.09, "end_sec": 24874.47, "start_hms": "06:53:56", "end_hms": "06:54:34", "speaker_name": "Nathan Sheard", "speaker_role": "Witness — Electronic Frontier Foundation", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 56, "text_clean": "Yeah. I think it's an excellent question. Who is the who is the right party? And I don't have a great answer for that. What I would like to say, though, is there's still research being done on the efficacy of kill switches. What I caution the council to think about is the risk of a kill switch being used as a tool to chill on popular speech. And so really thinking through and make sure that as we think about the ways that we want to provide the right protections for New Yorkers, that we're also not building tools that in the future could be used to harm people's essential liberties.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. I think it's an excellent question. Who who is the who is the right party? And and I I don't don't have a great answer for that. What I would like to say, though, is there's, you know, there's still research being done on the efficacy of kill switches. What I caution the council to think about is the risk of a kill switch being used as a tool to chill on popular speech. And so really thinking through and make sure that as we think about the ways that we wanna provide the right protections for New Yorkers, that we're also not putting our... Building tools that in the future could be used to harm people's essential liberties." }, { "turn_id": 626, "start_sec": 24876.615, "end_sec": 24972.205, "start_hms": "06:54:36", "end_hms": "06:56:12", "speaker_name": "Imran Ahmed", "speaker_role": "Witness — CCDH", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 55, "text_clean": "If I can make a brief point on who could do this work, being realistic, to date, civil society studying social media and AI platforms has had one dirty secret that most of its funding has come from the platforms themselves. So Meta and Google were enormous funders of extremism research, of safety research on their own platforms. And we don't take their money. When I would meet with the CEOs of the civil society bodies which were funded by them, they'd say, we're not allowed to say that they haven't done enough. We can always say they could do more, but not they haven't done enough. Mhmm. So there are real compromises there. In Europe or the rest of the world, and you can hear from my accent, and I actually grew up in Britain, that the government would fund this. And when it comes to giving a body the resources to have the speed and creativity to be effective in dealing with the fastest moving technology in human history, I cannot think of a nongovernmental source of funding that would be sufficient to get it to scale fast enough. So the question for New York City and New York State, which is a substantial economic unit, the budget of New York State is one quarter that of the entire United Kingdom, one state alone. It does have the economic capacity to do so, and I think you would have to seriously think about whether or not you're willing to put some public money towards creating an institution that's able to operate with the speed, resources, and creativity to be effective.", "text_unedited": "If if I can make a brief point on who could do this work, being realistic, to date, civil society studying social media and AI platforms has had one dirty secret that most of its funding has come from the platforms themselves. So Meta and Google were enormous funders of extremism research, of safety research on their own platforms. And when I would meet... And we don't take their money. When I would meet with their CEOs, they would say... The CEOs of the civil society bodies which were funded by them, they'd say, we're not allowed to say that they haven't done enough. We can always say they could do more, but not they haven't done enough. Mhmm. So there are real compromises there. In Europe or the rest of the world, and you can hear from my accent, and I actually grew up in Britain, that the government would fund this. And when it comes to giving a body the resources to have the speed and creativity to be effective in dealing with the fastest moving technology in human history, I cannot think of a nongovernmental source of funding that would be sufficient to get it to scale fast enough. So the question for New York... For New York City and New York State, which is a substantial economic unit, the budget of New York State is one quarter that of the entire United Kingdom, one state alone. It does have the economic capacity to do so, and I think you would have to seriously think about whether or not you're willing to put some public money towards creating an institution that's able to operate with the speed, resources, and creativity to be effective." }, { "turn_id": 627, "start_sec": 24973.885, "end_sec": 25086.115, "start_hms": "06:56:13", "end_hms": "06:58:06", "speaker_name": "Jukay Hsu", "speaker_role": "Witness — Bright Futures", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 34, "text_clean": "Thank you, speaker. And, yeah, agree with these kind of comments. It's such a tough challenge and totally agree with you that New York can be both. And I think people are looking for answers that's not so black and white and realize the reality of this. That's such an important question. I think, who can be third party validators? I think it's yes and for everyone. The labs are doing a lot. Like you heard, Anthropic is investing a lot into this. There are many more people going to AI alignment and safety research, which is so important. I think the one thing that's challenging is that the things are, like everyone said, moving so quickly. I think everyone can be a judge. Experts today... Like yesterday, six months ago, is not the same thing as today. And what's really going to happen is that you all can also be the judges by using this. Like, what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. A lot of it's, I think, common sense hopefully in the future. And then the last point I kind of make to that, even though it seems counterintuitive about who are the experts where we all can play a role, We have agency is that in the future, it's not just these five, what we call frontier labs. All the companies here in New York are fine tuning their own models. We all may have our own very powerful models in the future. So, actually, beyond the Frontier Labs, part of the challenge may be, actually your student researcher downloading a model and uploading it and fine-tuning it to create capabilities or test things or a company doing that inadvertently. So I think it's a much broader set of things than just relying on experts. I think, again, that is important, but I think we need to really widen the scope around that. This is not a technology where it's going to be nuclear weapons controlled by a dozen states. These will be as powerful, but we will have use and access to that. And I don't think that's going to stop.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker. And and, yeah, agree with these kind of comments. It's it's such a tough challenge and totally agree with you that New York can be both. And I think people are looking for answers that's not so black and white and realize the reality of this. I... You know, that's such an important question. You know? I think, who can be third party validators? I I think it's yes and and and for for everyone. The labs are doing a lot. Like you heard, Anthropic is investing a lot into this. There are many more people going to AI alignment and safety research, which is so important. I I think the one thing that's challenging is gonna be... I think the things are, like everyone said, moving so quickly. I think everyone can be a judge. Experts today... Like yesterday, six months ago, is not the same thing as today. And what's really gonna happen is that you all can also be the judges by using this. Like, what makes sense and what doesn't make sense. A lot of it's, I think, common sense hopefully in the future. And then the last point I kinda make to that, even though it seems counterintuitive about who are the experts where we all can play a role, We have agency is that in the future, it's not just these five, what we call frontier labs. All the companies here in New York are fine tuning their own models. We all may have our own very powerful models in the future. So, actually, beyond the Frontier Labs, part of the challenge may be, actually, you know, your student researcher downloading a model and uploading it and and up... And fine tuning it to create capabilities or test things or, you know, a company doing that inadvertently. So I think it's a much broader set of things than just relying on experts. I think, again, that is important, but I think we need to really widen the scope around that. This is not a technology where it's gonna be nuclear weapons controlled by a dozen states. These will be as powerful, but we will have use and access to that. And I don't think that's gonna stop." }, { "turn_id": 628, "start_sec": 25089.234, "end_sec": 25161.94, "start_hms": "06:58:09", "end_hms": "06:59:21", "speaker_name": "Mackenzie Arnold", "speaker_role": "Witness — Institute for Law & AI", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 57, "text_clean": "If I can jump in with just one last thought. I want to pick up on the yes and approach because I think this is right. I was just, talking with someone the other day who works at one of these evaluators today, and they joked that there were dozens of entities that could do this. And by that, they meant a dozen people, not a dozen different companies. I think we'll need to rely on both academia and private parties. I think we'll also have to rely on the public. Right? A big part of incident reporting is revealing some of that information to the public. One of the only times I've ever been happy with Twitter was this summer as people were arguing over the incidents, and we were starting to get a better idea of what happened. One note of caution I'll add is that one way this goes wrong is that the few potential evaluators that there are get tasked with many different things. Right? And there's a chance that New York should lead on this and that they should also coordinate with the state and with California and others, and not be overly prescriptive in the exact sort of analyses that need to be done by the entities. Where you can be exceptionally helpful is in sending a clear market signal. Right? So requiring that these audits or validations be done in order to get contracts with the city, or things like that.", "text_unedited": "If I can jump in with just one last thought. I wanna pick up on the yes and approach because I think this is is right. I was just, talking with someone the other day who works at one of these evaluators today, and they they joked that there were dozens of, entities that could do this. And by that, they meant a dozen people, not not a dozen different companies. I think we'll need to rely on both academia and, private parties. I think we'll also have to rely on the public. Right? A big part of incident reporting is revealing some of that information to the public. One of the only times I've ever been happy with Twitter was this summer as people were arguing over the incidents, and we were try... Starting to get a a better idea of what happened. One note of caution I'll add is that one way this goes wrong is that the few potential evaluators that there are get tasked with many different things. Right? And there's a chance that New York should lead on this and that they should also coordinate with the state and with California and others, and not be overly prescriptive in the exact sort of analyses that need to be done by the entities. Where you can be exceptionally helpful is in sending a clear market signal. Right? So requiring that these these audits or or or validations be done in order to get contracts with the city, or or things like that." }, { "turn_id": 629, "start_sec": 25163.863, "end_sec": 25164.744, "start_hms": "06:59:23", "end_hms": "06:59:24", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 630, "start_sec": 25167.064, "end_sec": 25183.13, "start_hms": "06:59:27", "end_hms": "06:59:43", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. I have two questions. The first one is for anyone in the panel who wants to take it. Do you all have concerns related to open weight models being available? And if safety features can be eliminated from open weight models, how do you defend against bad actors who use them?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. I have two questions. The first one is for anyone in the panel who wants to take it. Do you all have concerns related to open weight models being available? And if safety features can be eliminated from open weight models, how do you defend against bad actors who use them?" }, { "turn_id": 631, "start_sec": 25186.89, "end_sec": 25266.361, "start_hms": "06:59:46", "end_hms": "07:01:06", "speaker_name": "Nathan Sheard", "speaker_role": "Witness — Electronic Frontier Foundation", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 56, "text_clean": "I can start. I think one of the things I think about when we're thinking about open weight models is that we do want the ability for researchers and startups and potential future competitors to be able to develop tools and resources and also so that we can be able to evaluate these tools and see how they really work, which is difficult with the closed models. But then it certainly does lend the question then of how do we make sure that the proper protections are in place? And I think we have some of the tools to do that already. When an act takes place that is potentially harmful or threatening to New Yorkers their freedoms or physical safety, use the laws that we have now to pursue the people who are engaging in those activities. Right? So rather than look to the incumbents, the powerful corporations, to put in the protections that will keep us safe, use the existing laws that we have to be able to keep people safe and really look at who are the people that are creating the harm and use the things that we have in place to pursue justice and protection security there.", "text_unedited": "I can start. I think one of the things I think about when we're thinking about open weight models is that we do want the ability for researchers and startups and potential future competitors to be able to develop tools and resources and also so that we can be able to evaluate these tools and see how they really work, which is difficult with the closed models. But then it certainly does lend the question then of how do we make sure that the proper protections are in place? And I think we have some of the tools to do that already. When a act is execute... That an act takes place that is potentially harmful or or threatening to New Yorkers their freedom... Freedoms or or, you know, physical safety, pursue... Use the laws that we have now to pursue the people who are ex... Who are engaging in those activities. Right? So rather than try to create... Guide look to the incumbents, the powerful corporations to put in the protections that will keep us safe, look look... Use the existing laws that we have to be able to keep people safe and really look at who's... Who are the people that are creating the harm and and use the things that we have in place to pursue justice and protection security there." }, { "turn_id": 632, "start_sec": 25268.041, "end_sec": 25295.549, "start_hms": "07:01:08", "end_hms": "07:01:35", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you for that. I do have a direct question for Dr. Stoyanovich. I hope I didn't mess that up too bad. I know you said you seem skeptical of the catastrophic narrative around, what's occurring, but you still have concerns about possible harms. Can you describe to us, based on your expertise, what are the harms that are most relevant to New Yorkers?", "text_unedited": "Thank you for that. I do have a a a direct question for doctors Dayanovich. I hope I didn't mess that up too bad. I know you said, you know, you you you seem skeptical of the catastrophic narrative around, what's occurring, but, you still have concerns about possible harms. Can you describe to us, based on your expertise, what are the harms that are most relevant to New Yorkers?" }, { "turn_id": 633, "start_sec": 25296.988, "end_sec": 25383.871, "start_hms": "07:01:36", "end_hms": "07:03:03", "speaker_name": "Julia Stoyanovich", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYU Center for Responsible AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "Thank you for this question. So, we are running these systems in the city, in the public sector, in the private sector, and we have seen in New York very specific harms, that come from deployed systems and with very consequential, decisions. So in my own work, I did an audit of a hiring system that claims to construct a job seeker's personality profile, a bunch of numbers from their resume or social media feed, like a Twitter feed at the time or a LinkedIn profile. And these systems are complete nonsense. Right? For the same job seeker, if you change something like the file format of the resume, it's going to give you a completely different personality. Right? So we need to actually be looking at whether these systems even work. Right? I think that should be just stop one of anything before we worry about existential risk. We had a similar scenario with the MyCity chatbot. Right? I mean, we all have heard about that fiasco where the city spent $500,000, conservatively speaking, on a bot that advised small and medium sized business owners to break the law, which was quite problematic speaking with the city's authority. So I really think that we need to be looking at cases such as these ones where there are very known risks and start there and clean up our own house.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for this question. Yeah. Thank you for this question. So, we are running these systems in the city, in the public sector, in the private sector, and we have seen in New York very specific harms, that come from deployed systems and with very consequential, decisions. So in, my own work, I did an audit of, a hiring system that claims to construct a job seeker's personality profile, a bunch of numbers from their resume or social media feed, like a Twitter feed at the time or a LinkedIn profile. And these systems are complete nonsense. Right? For the same job seeker, if you change something like the file format of the resume, it's gonna give you a completely different personality. Right? So we need to actually be looking at whether these systems even work. Right? I think that that should be just stop one of anything before we worry about existential risk. We had a similar scenario with the the MyCity chatbot. Right? I mean, we all have heard about that fiasco where the city spent $500,000, conservatively speaking, on a bot that advised small and medium sized business owners to break the law, which was quite problematic speaking with the city's authority. So I really think that we need to be looking at cases such as these ones where there are very known risks and start there and clean up our own house." }, { "turn_id": 634, "start_sec": 25384.916, "end_sec": 25391.477, "start_hms": "07:03:04", "end_hms": "07:03:11", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you for that, and I want to thank you all for your answers and insights. We have three members on stack,", "text_unedited": "Thank you for that, and and I wanna thank you all for your answers and insights. We have three members on stack," }, { "turn_id": 635, "start_sec": 25391.637, "end_sec": 25416.33, "start_hms": "07:03:11", "end_hms": "07:03:36", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Council Member Ossé, Council Member Hanif, and then Council Member Maloney to close this panel. Thank you, chair. Ms. Myers, there are a lot of issues in AI. currently, we hear about the harms that it has for our children, workers, consumers, and the coming threats of catastrophic risk. Do any of these issues conflict with one another, and what should we address, if not all of them?", "text_unedited": "council member Osei, council member Hanif, and then council member Maloney to close this panel. Thank you, chair. Miss Myers, there are a lot of issues in AI. You know, currently, we hear about the harms that it has for our children, workers, consumers, and the coming threats of catastrophic risk. Do any of these issues conflict with one another, and what should we address, if not all of them?" }, { "turn_id": 636, "start_sec": 25417.557, "end_sec": 25470.629, "start_hms": "07:03:37", "end_hms": "07:04:30", "speaker_name": "Anna Myers", "speaker_role": "Witness — Who Decides", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 47, "text_clean": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. This is a yes and question. This is we cannot silo these into separate scenarios. Kids, workers, consumers, catastrophic risk can all be addressed in parallel to each other. Just like the council has done a great job with their bill package of covering multiple things at once, we need to resist the urge to fight against each other on whose bill is more important at times or what we're protecting at times. When I worked on the RAISE Act, we were working on C2PA at the same time. There's no reason for us to stop the protections of catastrophic risks while at the same time working on transparency data. The most important question we need to have right now is who is making these decisions, and it shouldn't be five CEOs. It should be the American people and the", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Thank you for the question. This is a yes and question. This is, we cannot silo these into separate scenarios. Kids, workers, consumers, catastrophic risk can all be addressed in parallel to each other. Just like the council has done a great job with their bill package of covering multiple things at once, we need to resist the urge to fight against each other on whose bill is more important at times or what we're protecting at times. When I worked on the RAISE Act, we were working on c two p a at the same time. There's no reason for us to stop protect... The protections of catastrophic risks while at the same time working on transparency data. The most important question we need to have right now is who is making these decisions, and it shouldn't be five CEOs. It should be the American people and the" }, { "turn_id": 637, "start_sec": 25471.125, "end_sec": 25480.166, "start_hms": "07:04:31", "end_hms": "07:04:40", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "electeds that they voted for. Thank you. And based on your conversations and polling, what are Americans most worried about when it comes to artificial intelligence?", "text_unedited": "electeds that they voted for. Thank you. And and based on your conversations and polling, what are Americans most worried about when it comes to artificial intelligence?" }, { "turn_id": 638, "start_sec": 25480.805, "end_sec": 25499.16, "start_hms": "07:04:40", "end_hms": "07:04:59", "speaker_name": "Anna Myers", "speaker_role": "Witness — Who Decides", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 47, "text_clean": "Yeah. Right now, that they don't have a say in it. It's no accident that we named our org who decides. It's time for the American people to have a say in it and our polling showing that they feel that they are not a part of the conversation and that this is happening around them and they want to be in it.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. Right now, that they don't have a say in it. It's no accident that we named our org who decides. It's time for the American people to have a say in it and our polling showing that they feel that they are not a part of the conversation and that this is happening around them and they wanna be in it." }, { "turn_id": 639, "start_sec": 25499.945, "end_sec": 25500.746, "start_hms": "07:04:59", "end_hms": "07:05:00", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 640, "start_sec": 25501.625, "end_sec": 25504.346, "start_hms": "07:05:01", "end_hms": "07:05:04", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council Member Hanif,", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Council member Hanif," }, { "turn_id": 641, "start_sec": 25504.346, "end_sec": 25545.89, "start_hms": "07:05:04", "end_hms": "07:05:45", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "followed by Maloney. Thank you. And thank you for your expertise, and this is for everyone on the panel. As AI and facial recognition technologies become more powerful, what safeguards should cities put in place to prevent surveillance tools from being used to target people based on their identity, associations, or political activity? Would legislation like my ban the scan bill, which would regulate and prohibit biometric surveillance in places of public accommodation, provide an important safeguard? And I'm particularly interested in your assessment of Madison Square Garden owner James Dolan's use of biometric surveillance to identify and exclude individuals? Thank you.", "text_unedited": "followed by Maloney. Thank you. And thank you for your expertise, and this is for everyone on the panel. As AI and facial recognition technologies become more powerful, what safeguards should cities put in place to prevent surveillance tools from being used to target people based on their identity, associations, or political activity? Would legislation like my ban the scan bill, which would regulate and prohibit biometric surveillance in places of public accommodation, provide an important safeguard? And I'm particularly interested in your assessment of Madison Square Garden owner James Dolan's use of biometric surveillance to identify and exclude individuals? Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 642, "start_sec": 25548.77, "end_sec": 25602.34, "start_hms": "07:05:48", "end_hms": "07:06:42", "speaker_name": "Julia Stoyanovich", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYU Center for Responsible AI", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "I can... Anyone. Yeah. Okay. So, absolutely, I'm very supportive of your bill, and I think that we have a lack of data protection in the city, in this country, in the state. Right? And data protection is a tremendously important issue. And because of how convenient AI tools are people very often voluntarily give up very private information about themselves. So I actually have in my written testimony that's much longer examples of AI assistance being marketed that essentially people give access to their calendars, their children's biometrics, the schedules, all of the school contact information. Right? So we really need to educate the public about the benefits, but also the risks that data sharing poses, and we need to establish a proper data protection regime in the city. There's no way around it.", "text_unedited": "I can... Anyone. Yeah. Okay. So, absolutely, I'm very supportive of your bill, and I think that, we have a lack of data protection in the city, in this country, in the state. Right? And data protection is a tremendously important issue. And because of how convenient AI tools are, people very often voluntarily give up very private information about themselves. So I actually have in my written testimony that's much longer examples of AI assistance being marketed that essentially people give access to their calendars, their children's biometrics, the schedules, all of the school contact information. Right? So we really need to educate the public about the benefits, but also also the risks that data sharing poses, and we need to establish a proper data protection regime in the city. There's no way around it." }, { "turn_id": 643, "start_sec": 25604.02, "end_sec": 25739.656, "start_hms": "07:06:44", "end_hms": "07:08:59", "speaker_name": "Nathan Sheard", "speaker_role": "Witness — Electronic Frontier Foundation", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 56, "text_clean": "So as I mentioned, in my statement, I am very concerned and EFF is very concerned about the risk connected to the collection of biometric data like face prints that can't be replaced. If I lose my driver's license, I get a new driver's license. I lose my Social Security or my license plate gets out, I can replace those things. I can't replace my face. Face. And the risk of government use of face recognition technology so far outweighs any benefit. The way that it will chill our ability to engage in protest, to engage in free speech, to be able to associate freely and to search new ideas, health care, the risk that we'll be able to document, like, we go into health care, how we move around the city is considerable. There's no way to separate that risk from government use of the technology. I think Illinois has a good model on how we can respond to private use of the technology. We definitely don't want to be in a situation where people are being persuaded or otherwise not being informed about the way that their biometric data is being collected. So by making sure But we also want to make sure that researchers are still be able to use the technology. The ACLU years ago, used face recognition on a number of congresspeople, and was able to show how easily it misidentified people, especially black, brown folks, women, older folks. And so, like, that kind of research and use can be really helpful. But we need to make sure... So how do we protect people from the harms but still allow that research and other consensual use to be done? And that, again, that model of making sure that people have informed written consent about how the technology is being used and how the data is going to be stored and that they can only be used for the ways that have been explicitly approved by the individual whose that data is being collected is a way that we can make sure that we can mitigate the risk, and it is only used in ways that people are in an informed consensual way agreeing to. Thank", "text_unedited": "So as as I mentioned, in my in my statement, I am very concerned about the... And EFF is very concerned about the risk connected to the collection of biometric data like face like face prints that can't be replaced. You know, if I lose my driver's license, I get a new driver's license. I lose my Social Security or my license plate gets out, I can replace those things. I can't replace my face. Face. And the risk of government use of face recognition technology so far outweighs any benefit. The the the way that it will chill our ability to engage in protest, to engage in free speech, to be able to associate with with... Freely and to search new ideas, health care, the the risk that we'll be able to document, like, we go into health care, how we move around the city is considerable. There's no way to separate that risk from government use of the technology. I think Illinois has a good model on how we can respond to private use of the technology. You know, we definitely don't want to be in a situation where people are being persuaded or or otherwise not being informed about the way that their biometric data is being collected. So by making sure that we have that the only time that that... But we also wanna make sure that researchers are still be able to use the theology. The ASLU years ago, used face recognition on a number of congresspeople, and they built a... And was able to show how it was... How easily it misidentified people, especially black, brown folks, women, older folks. And so, like, that kind of research and use can be really helpful. So we... But we need to make sure... So how do we protect people from the harms by... But still allow that research and and other, you know, consensual use to be done? And I think... And that, again, that model of making sure that people have informed written consent about how the technology is being used and how the data is gonna be stored and that they can only be used for the ways that have been explicitly approved by the individual whose that data is being collected is a way that we can make sure that people are... That we can mitigate the risk, and it is only used in ways that people, are very... Are in in in an informed consensual way agreeing to. Thank" }, { "turn_id": 644, "start_sec": 25740.375, "end_sec": 25741.895, "start_hms": "07:09:00", "end_hms": "07:09:01", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "you all. Council Member Maloney?", "text_unedited": "you all. Councilmember Maloney?" }, { "turn_id": 645, "start_sec": 25742.988, "end_sec": 25804.67, "start_hms": "07:09:02", "end_hms": "07:10:04", "speaker_name": "Virginia Maloney", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 36, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, chair. I chair the council's committee on economic development, and I want to see technology companies, including AI technologies, build and hire here and wanted to refer to some of the testimony earlier about that. The four companies that we heard today have offices here, but the foundational AI work and that research is happening in mainly in San Francisco. Is that a problem? What is New York's AI advantage to grow that industry here? And the second part of my question is on workforce development. And in particular, Pursuit did work on reskilling. So I'm curious if you can speak to entry level tasks that have been replaced by AI versus reskilled by AI and the path from junior to senior and the role or responsibility that the city plays in helping people through the AI transition that's coming? And anyone who wants to speak.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, chair. I chair the council's committee on economic development, and I want to see technology companies, including AI technologies, build and hire here and wanted to refer to some of the testimony earlier about that. The four companies that we heard today have offices here, but the foundational AI work and that research is happening in mainly in San Francisco. Is that a problem? What is New York's AI advantage to grow that industry here? And the second part of my question is on workforce development. And in particular, Pursuit did work on reskilling. So I'm curious if you can speak to entry level tasks that have been replaced by AI versus reskilled by AI and the path from junior to senior and the role or responsibility that the city plays in in helping people through the AI transition that's coming? And anyone who wants to speak." }, { "turn_id": 646, "start_sec": 25805.07, "end_sec": 25914.654, "start_hms": "07:10:05", "end_hms": "07:11:54", "speaker_name": "Jukay Hsu", "speaker_role": "Witness — Bright Futures", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 34, "text_clean": "Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, council member. Yeah. Maybe I can speak quickly to both things. I mean, on the second point, yeah, reskilling is so important as we heard from everyone. The city, I hope, plays a critical role here, and I hope, you and others will continue to kind of address that. It's so challenging right now. We don't know. There's recent reports on how it's affected so many entry level jobs, but that's going to continue to change. It's not obvious what it is and hence, this might be unsatisfactory, but I hope just continued monitoring and understanding and engaging is so important. But I think there are some obvious things like autonomous vehicles will be coming to New York. I don't I don't know if that's one year, five years, or 10 years. It's safer. People trust it. And so thinking about something like that, can New York City take bold leadership around what's going to happen to our 200,000 drivers and couriers so that they get reskilled and transitioned in the future? And I think there's so many opportunities to do that to do that. There's an obvious thing that's going to happen. So how do we tackle that? And then the first, yeah, I do hope. So many technology companies here, I think that's how we build great stuff. That's how we have growth and safety. Alignment is so important as we all agree here. So I think part of it's a tone with all of you. People want to live and build in New York, and so I hope there's other policies you all can consider as well. I think what mayor Bloomberg did such a great job of tracking is to make New York feel like a place where tech companies can grow. Just showing up, talking about it, welcoming it. So, I hope we can do both things, and you all, both do that working with the companies, new companies, and also think about alignment and work with them to address this because we need the industry also to address this.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you, council member. Yeah. Maybe I can speak quickly to to both things. I mean, on the second point, yeah, reskilling is so important as we heard from everyone. The city, I I hope, plays a critical role here, and I hope, you and others will continue to kind of address that. It's so challenging right now. We don't know. There's recent reports on how it's affected so many entry level jobs, but that's gonna continue to change. It's not obvious what it is, and hence, this might be unsatisfactory, but I hope just continued monitoring and understanding and engaging is so important. But I think there are some obvious things like autonomous vehicles will be coming to New York. I don't I don't know if that's one year, five years, or ten years. It's safer. People trust it. And so thinking about something like that, can New York City take bold leadership around what's gonna happen to our 200,000 drivers and couriers so that they get reskilled and transitioned in the future? And I think there's so many opportunities to do that where the answer... I mean, there's an obvious thing that's gonna happen. So how do we tackle that? And then the first, yeah, I I do hope. So many technology companies here, I think that's how we build great stuff. That's how we have growth and safety. Alignment is so important as we all agree here. So I think part of it's a tone with all of you. People wanna live and build in New York, and so I I I hope there's other policies you all can consider as well. I think what mayor Bloomberg did such a great job of tracking is to make New York feel like a place where tech companies can grow. Just showing up, talking about it, welcoming it. So, I hope we can do both things, and you all, both do that working with the companies, new companies, and also think about alignment and work with them to address this because we need the industry also to address this." }, { "turn_id": 647, "start_sec": 25916.51, "end_sec": 26001.516, "start_hms": "07:11:56", "end_hms": "07:13:21", "speaker_name": "Julia Stoyanovich", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYU Center for Responsible AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 42, "text_clean": "If I may add to this. So the deputy commissioner of OTI, when she spoke, she uttered the phrase that I find really upsetting, She said that we need effective and responsible innovation. And, the effective part of this would cover the wins for us. But that is really not the kind of a position that New York City should be taking. Our position should be that the wins should come from responsible innovation, And this is our angle here. And this, I think, is the kind of industry that we can and should build. We really are uniquely positioned as opposed to San Francisco to do this. Right? And we always have been leading in at least proposing regulatory instruments for automated decision systems, AI. For us to actually develop an industry, we need to understand that we have to invest. Right? And following up on what one of the people at the table here said, we have a pretty substantial amount of money here at our disposal that we could put towards responsible innovation, towards upskilling, towards making sure that the public's literacy is raised, right, so that we can all regulate and oversee the space together. So, really, New York City should invest in responsible innovation, upskilling literacy, and building enforcement capacity and oversight capacity in house within the government.", "text_unedited": "If I may add to this. So the the deputy commissioner of OTI, when she spoke, she uttered the phrase that I find really upsetting, and that was... She said that we need effective and responsible innovation. And, the effective part of this would cover the wins for us. But that is really not the kind of a position that New York City should be taking. Our position should be that the wins should come from responsible innovation, And this is our angle here. And this, I think, is the kind of industry that we can and should build. We really are uniquely positioned as opposed to San Francisco to do this. Right? And we always have been leading in at least proposing regulatory instruments for automated decision systems, AI. For us to actually develop an industry, we need to understand that we have to invest. Right? And, you know, following up on what one of the people at the table here said, we have a pretty substantial amount of money here at our disposal that we could put towards responsible innovation, towards upskilling, towards making sure that the public's literacy is raised, right, so that we can all regulate and oversee the space together. So, really, New York City should should invest in responsible innovation, upskilling literacy, and building enforcement capacity and oversight capacity in house within the government." }, { "turn_id": 648, "start_sec": 26004.021, "end_sec": 26040.27, "start_hms": "07:13:24", "end_hms": "07:14:00", "speaker_name": "Anna Myers", "speaker_role": "Witness — Who Decides", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 47, "text_clean": "Yeah. I think New York is a tech city, and we need to resist the urge to compare that we're not that. I used to work in VC that invested in enterprise tech. We are a growing tech industry, and the labs, those four companies are here working. They will grow slowly. It's an affordability issue as well, and we can't narrow it to just that we're not tech welcoming. And I think the mayor is doing a great job at that, and the city has a lot of opportunity to focus on the whole conversation and not just we don't see enough tech people moving here. This is a great tech city, and tech is only growing here.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. I think New York is a tech city, and we need to resist the urge to compare that we're not that. I used to work in VC that invested in enterprise tech. We are a growing tech industry, and the labs, those four companies are here working. They will grow slowly. It's an affordability issue as well, and we can't narrow it to just that we're not tech welcoming. And I think the mayor is doing a great job at that, and the city has a lot of opportunity to focus on the whole conversation and not just we don't see enough tech people moving here. This is a great tech city, and tech is only growing here." }, { "turn_id": 649, "start_sec": 26045.004, "end_sec": 26129.516, "start_hms": "07:14:05", "end_hms": "07:15:29", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all. Thank you all. And I want to thank this panel for your expertise. And this is not the end of the conversation. This is the beginning. The speaker has tasked us to continue to hold hearings with the different committees on AI in all its, in all of its sort of expansiveness. So thank you so much for being here. I want to call up the next panel. As we do this transition, I also want to remind anyone who has not signed up to speak to please fill out a card with the sergeant at arms. In this panel, we have our state colleagues and our colleagues from around the world, testifying on this panel. We have, the honorable Jess Asato, who is a UK parliament member and has flown in specifically for this hearing, so we want to thank her for being here. We have Alex Bores, current assembly member. We have, Andrew Gounardes, senator. We have Kristen Gonzalez, senator. We have Clyde Vanel, Assembly Member, and we have Jordan Wright, assembly member. We're going to begin this panel with, Senator Gonzalez whenever you're ready, and thank you for your patience. Let me turn this on. We Honorable Jess Asato, you could also join this panel, please, and thank you for being here and flying all the way in from The UOkay. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all. Thank you all. And I wanna thank this panel for your expertise. And this is not the end of the conversation. This is the beginning. The speaker has tasked us to continue to hold hearings with the different committees on AI in all its, in all of its sort of expansiveness. So thank you so much for being here. I wanna call up the next panel. As I 've... As we do this transition, I also wanna remind anyone who has not signed up to to speak to please fill out a card with the sergeant at arms. In this panel, we have our state colleagues and our colleagues from around the world, testifying on this panel. We have, the honorable Jess Asato, who is a UK parliament member and has flown in specifically for this hearing, so we wanna thank her for being here. We have Alex Boris, current assembly member. We have, Andrew Gonardis, senator. We have Kristen Gonzales, senator. We have Clive Bunnell, assembly member, and we have Jordan Wright, assembly member. We're gonna begin this panel with, senator Gonzales whenever you're ready, and thank you for your patience. Let me turn this on. We Honorable Jess Asado, you could also join this panel, please, and thank you for being here and flying all the way in from The UK. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 650, "start_sec": 26132.395, "end_sec": 26415.484, "start_hms": "07:15:32", "end_hms": "07:20:15", "speaker_name": "Kristen Gonzalez", "speaker_role": "NY State Senator, SD 59", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 58, "text_clean": "Great. Thank you so much. I want to thank Speaker Menin and the New York City Council for your attention to a if not the major policy issue of our time. I am New York state senator Kristen Gonzalez representing the 59th Senate District in Midtown Manhattan, Northern Brooklyn, and Western Queens. I am the chair of two State Senate committees, elections and Internet and technology. Over the last four years as chair of the State Senate technology committee and as a former tech worker, I've led on the issue of AI in the legislature and have passed some of the state's first laws on generative AI, including regulating deepfakes in elections, government use of AI, protecting workers from automation, adding warning labels on chatbots, responsible data center development, and more. I want to be clear. AI is not inevitable. We do not have to accept a vision for innovation driven by the very same tech oligarchs who have raised alarm that their models could lead to catastrophic events. And we certainly can't trust the same people who have rushed to roll out imperfect AI tools to regulate themselves. As government bodies, we have the responsibility to set guardrails on this new technology and the power to establish regulations that protect workers, consumers, and members of the public from potential danger. Interventions at every level of government are needed to ensure AI is developed in a responsible way that benefits the public and not just the billionaires. Responsibly regulating AI absolutely means guardrails on frontier models and superintelligence that pose significant threats. However, meaningfully reining in these technologies to protect New Yorkers means regulating the AI powered tools these companies are rushing to embed into every part of our lives with little oversight and little accountability. We shouldn't have to wait for future harms to take action because the harms of imperfect AI tools are already being felt across the country. For example, uses for mass surveillance of immigrant communities and workers, chatbots creating intimate partner relationships with children and adults going as far as to encourage self harm, and documented cases of algorithmic bias in decision making such as in hiring, health care, and housing. I believe we have the power to set the terms of innovation so that this technology is used for the maximum public good. That is why our state legislation has prioritized a rights based approach to AI. We should have the fundamental right to privacy, which is why I've introduced the New York Privacy Act. We should have a right to protections in the workplace, which is why I've introduced the BOD Act to to protect workers from workplace surveillance. We should have the right to know when AI is making high risk consequential decisions about our lives and subjecting us to algorithmic bias, which is why I introduced the New York AI act. This bill requires third party audits, compliance with international safety standards, disclosures, transparency, and importantly, for a human to be in the loop in consequential decision making, much of which we've heard about today. Finally, two of my bills sitting on the governor's desk this year include the right to keep our kids safe online from chatbots and the right to protect all of us from the build out of massive data centers. Our bill, S9051B, bans unsafe features for kids and passed unanimously in both chambers of the legislature. Just like with that bill, New Yorkers are united in the fight against hyperscale data centers. At the end of August, I embarked on a statewide tour of communities that are affected by these data centers, and I went to 13 different communities facing major noise pollution, health impacts, environmental degradation, and threats to their water supplies. I was proud to work with the governor on her first emanation moratorium on the largest data centers, and I'm now working to get the responsible data center development act signed into law. While the tech CEOs say they want regulations, they have spent their time in Albany fighting against each of the common sense guardrails I have mentioned. For the lip service they pay to supporting legislation, it is only ever for the most watered down version of a bill. Together, we have the ability to meet the moment, pass real legislation, protect New Yorkers, and build a future that allows us to benefit from innovation while protecting New Yorkers from real harm. Thank you to the council again today for our testimony. Thank you. Thank you, senator.", "text_unedited": "Great. Thank you so much. I wanna thank speaker Menon and the New York City Council for your attention to a, if not the, major policy issue of our time. I am New York state senator Kristen Gonzalez representing the 59th Senate District in Midtown Manhattan, Northern Brooklyn, and Western Queens. I am the chair of two state senate committees, elections and Internet and technology. Over the last four years as chair of the state senate technology committee and as a former tech worker, I've led on the issue of AI in the legislature and have passed some of the state's first laws on generative AI, including regulating deepfakes in elections, government use of AI, protecting workers from automation, adding warning labels on chatbots, responsible data center development, and more. I want to be clear. AI is not inevitable. We do not have to accept a vision for innovation driven by the very same tech oligarchs who have raised alarm that their models could lead to catastrophic events. And we certainly can't trust the same people who have rushed to roll out imperfect AI tools to regulate themselves. As government bodies, we have the responsibility to set guardrails on this new technology and the power to establish regulations that protect workers, consumers, and members of the public from potential danger. Interventions at every level of government are needed to ensure AI is developed in a responsible way that benefits the public and not just the billionaires. Responsibly regulating AI absolutely means guardrails on frontier models and superintelligence that pose significant threats. However, meaningfully reining in these technologies to protect New Yorkers means regulating the AI powered tools these companies are rushing to embed into every part of our lives with little oversight and little accountability. We shouldn't have to wait for future harms to take action because the harms of imperfect AI tools are already being felt across the country. For example, uses for mass surveillance of immigrant communities and workers, chatbots creating intimate partner relationships with children and adults going as far as to encourage self harm, and documented cases of algorithmic bias in decision making such as in hiring, health care, and housing. I believe we have the power to set the terms of innovation so that this technology is used for the maximum public good. That is why our state legislation has prioritized a rights based approach to AI. We should have the fundamental right to privacy, which is why I've introduced the New York Privacy Act. We should have a right to protections in the workplace, which is why I've introduced the BOD Act to protect from... To protect workers from workplace surveillance. We should have the right to know when AI is making high risk consequential decisions about our lives and subjecting us to algorithmic bias, which is why I introduced the New York AI act. This bill requires third party audits, compliance with international safety standards, disclosures, transparency, and importantly, for a human to be in the loop in consequential decision making, much of which we've heard about today. Finally, two of my bills sitting on the governor's desk this year include the right to keep our kids safe online from chatbots and the right to protect all of us from the build out of massive data centers. Our bill, s nine zero five one b, bans unsafe features for kids and passed unanimously in both chambers of the legislature. Just like with that bill, New Yorkers are united in the fight against hyperscale data centers. At the end of August, I embarked on a statewide tour of communities that are affected by these data centers, and I went to 13 different communities facing major noise pollution, health impacts, environmental degradation, and threats to their water supplies. I was proud to work with the governor on her first emanation moratorium on the largest data centers, and I'm now working to get the responsible data center development act signed into law. While the tech CEOs say they want regulations, they have spent their time in Albany fighting against each of the common sense guardrails I have mentioned. For the lip service they pay to supporting legislation, it is only ever for the most watered down version of a bill. Together, we have the ability to meet the moment, pass real legislation, protect New Yorkers, and build a future that allows us to benefit from innovation while protecting New Yorkers from real harm. Thank you to the council again today for our testimony. Thank you. Thank you, senator." }, { "turn_id": 651, "start_sec": 26415.564, "end_sec": 26421.48, "start_hms": "07:20:15", "end_hms": "07:20:21", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "You can continue, whoever wants to go next.", "text_unedited": "You can you can continue, whoever wants to go next." }, { "turn_id": 652, "start_sec": 26425.4, "end_sec": 26557.297, "start_hms": "07:20:25", "end_hms": "07:22:37", "speaker_name": "Clyde Vanel", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 33", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 27, "text_clean": "Good evening. Good evening, madam speaker. And also good evening, to the to the chair, Carmen De La Rosa, and to my council member, deputy speaker Dr. Nantasha Williams, is the sponsor of Resolution 175, the resolution supporting the bill high risk advanced artificial intelligence act. Artificial intelligence, used properly, is a net good. Education, health care, business, these are great uses. But talking about them while ignoring the risk, that AI could actually kill and strike us, to me, seems absurd. Companies are racing towards, artificial, towards general artificial intelligence, and some of their systems are already too dangerous to release publicly. This is by their own admission. We saw this coming. So by Assembly Bill 3356, the artificial intelligence, act a few years ago, the idea is simple. The more harm that an AI system can do, the more accountability that it should carry. The bill identifies high risk artificial intelligence systems. AI that diagnoses patients, that runs our power grid, or helps police or judges make decisions, and far more, it requires them to be licensed before operating in New York. Under the act, the companies must report malfunctions and hacks like the recent, hugging face case. It must get, state sign off before major changes and set up an independent ethics risk board that reports to the state annually. Finally, it writes a binding ethical code into the law. New York took its first step with the RAISE Act, and I commend our colleagues and the state for passing it. But now none of this that we're doing is meant to stop innovation. We can't know what it will be capable of in a few years. But for tomorrow and for today, we must decide properly the path forward. I'd like to thank the council for putting, this hearing together, and we must work on this together. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening. Good evening, madam speaker. And also good evening, to the, to the, chair, Carmen de la Rosa, and to my, council member, deputy speaker doctor Nantasha Williams, is the sponsor of resolution one seventy five, the the the resolution supporting the bill high risk advanced artificial intelligence act. Artificial intelligence, used properly, is a net good. Education, health care, business, these are great uses. But talking about them while ignoring the risk, that AI could actually kill and strike us, it could... To me, seems absurd. Companies are racing towards, artificial, towards general artificial intelligence, and some of their systems are already too dangerous to release publicly. This is by their own admission. We saw this coming. So by... Assembly bill three three five six, the artificial intelligence, act a few years ago, the idea is simple. The more harm that an AI system can do, the more accountability that it should carry. The bill identifies high risk artificial intelligence systems. AI AI that diagnoses patients, that runs our power grid, or helps police or judges make decisions, and far more, it requires them to be licensed before operating in New York. Under the act, the companies must report malfunctions and hacks like the recent, hugging face case. It must get, state sign off before major changes and set up an independent ethics risk board that reports to the state annually. Finally, it writes a binding ethical code into the law. New York took its first step with the RAISE Act, and I'm, and I I commend our colleagues for... And and the state for passing it. Now... But now none of this, none none of this that we're doing is meant to stop, innovation. We can't know that AI will be capable... What it will be capable of in a few years. But for tomorrow and for today, we must decide properly the the path forward. I'd like to thank the council for putting, this this hearing together, and we must work on this together. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 653, "start_sec": 26557.936, "end_sec": 26559.057, "start_hms": "07:22:37", "end_hms": "07:22:39", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 654, "start_sec": 26560.336, "end_sec": 26623.195, "start_hms": "07:22:40", "end_hms": "07:23:43", "speaker_name": "Jordan Wright", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 70", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 59, "text_clean": "Good evening. Thank you, Speaker Menin. Thank you to all the members of the council. Thank you, Chair De La Rosa. I'm New York State Assembly Member Jordan Wright representing the 70th Assembly District, which is Harlem. One of the things I've been focused on in Albany is pretty simple. Who is checking on AI companies? I have legislation that requires certain AI developers to have an independent third party verify that they're actually following the safety standards that they say they are following. Because we can't have a system where a company builds the technology, writes the safety rules, tells us they follow the rules, and then we just take their word for it? It doesn't make much sense to me. We have to make sure that these third party audits actually mean something. Who are the auditors? Are they really independent? Do they have conflicts of interest? And what happens when they find something wrong? Those are questions that we're trying to answer at the state level, and I'm glad the City Council is having this discussion as well. New York should be a place where AI companies want to build and innovate, but the accountability to innovate can exist at the same time. I want to thank all the members of the council for having us today. I thank you guys for taking this issue seriously once again, and please enjoy your evening and be safe. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Good evening. Thank you, speaker Menon. Thank you to all the members of the council. Thank you, chair De La Rosa. I'm New York state assembly member Jordan Wright representing the 70th Assembly District, which is Harlem. One of the things I've been focused on in Albany is pretty simple. Who is checking on AI companies? I have legislation that requires certain AI developers to have an independent third party verify that they're actually following the safety standards that they say they are following. Because we can't have a system where a company builds the technology, writes the safety rules, tells us they follow the rules, and then we just take their word for it? It doesn't make much sense to me. We have to make sure that these third party audits actually mean something. Who are the auditors? Who are the... Are they really independent? Do they have conflicts of interest? And what happens when they find something wrong? Those are questions that we're trying to answer at the state level, and I'm glad the city council is having this discussion as well. New York should be a place where AI companies want to build and innovate, but the accountability to innovate can exist at the same time. I wanna thank all the members of the council for having us today. I thank you guys for taking this issue seriously once again, and please enjoy your evening and be safe. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 655, "start_sec": 26624.51, "end_sec": 26625.39, "start_hms": "07:23:44", "end_hms": "07:23:45", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 656, "start_sec": 26630.91, "end_sec": 26822.95, "start_hms": "07:23:50", "end_hms": "07:27:02", "speaker_name": "Jess Asato", "speaker_role": "UK Member of Parliament, Lowestoft", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 60, "text_clean": "Good evening, and thank you. My name is Jess Asato, and I am a member of The United Kingdom Parliament for Lowestoft in Suffolk. In January of this year, sexualized and degrading nonconsensual images were created of me using SpaceX AI's tool, Grok. I was one of thousands of victims, including victims in New York of Grok. Grok is an AI tool that was engineered to create sexualized content even if that content had, and I quote, dark or violent themes. I am seeking remedies against SpaceX AI in the English courts for the misuse of my private information and for contravening UK data protection laws. I made a long journey of 3,400 miles to be here because AI needs to be safe around our world. But I note that SpaceX AI couldn't manage a trip of what I understand is just twenty minutes or four subway stops from their offices in Manhattan. It's a shame because the evidence in my case and other cases suggest that Grok was not built with sufficient safety in its design. It was not built to address consent of those subjected to sexualized content. To the contrary, the evidence in my claim suggests Grok added sexualized content without any user prompting to do so. That is AI made wrong, not AI gone wrong. And as a result, those responsible for its creation must be held to account. No one is above the law no matter how rich they are no matter how powerful they are. The equal protection of the laws is a founding principle in the fourteenth amendment as it is in the British Magna Carta. We were promised that artificial intelligence could hold the cure to cancer, yet it is turning into a cancer, which left unchecked has the potential to harm us all. Today, the New York City Council is bringing forward some important checks and balances. You do so as responsible legislators at a time when AI companies are failing to take responsibility for the design and impact of their products. Until they do and until those designs are corrected so women and girls are protected from the harm that might claim in others evidences, we must play our part. This technology does not respect geographic boundaries. And without international cooperation, our citizens will be left defenseless against those who put profit before protection. So I bring a message of bipartisan solidarity. I fight my legal action in the name of all the women and children whose likeness was misused by Grok and other AI tools built without their protection in mind. I hope my cause, in some way, helps to inform your proceedings today, and I look forward to your questions.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, and thank you. My name is Jess Esato, and I am a member of The United Kingdom Parliament for Lowestoft in Suffolk. In January of this year, sexualized and degrading nonconsensual images were created of me using SpaceX AI's tool, Grok. I was one of thousands of victims, including victims in New York of Grok. Grock is an AI tool that was engineered to create sexualized content even if that content had, and I quote, dark or violent themes. I am seeking remedies against SpaceX AI in the English courts for the misuse of my private information and for contravening UK data protection laws. I made a long journey of 3,400 miles to be here because AI needs to be safe around our world. But I note that SpaceX AI couldn't manage a trip of what I understand is just twenty minutes or four subway stops from their offices in Manhattan. It's a shame because the evidence in my case and other cases suggest that Grock was not built with sufficient safety in its design. It was not built to address consent of those subjected to sexualized content. To the contrary, the evidence in my claim suggests Grock added sexualized content without any user prompting to do so. That is AI made wrong, not AI gone wrong. And as a result, those responsible for its creation must be held to account. No one is above the law no matter how rich they are, no matter how powerful they are. The equal protection of the laws is a founding principle in the fourteenth amendment as it is in the British Magna Carta. We were promised that artificial intelligence could hold the cure to cancer, yet it is turning into a cancer, which left unchecked has the potential to harm us all. Today, the New York City Council is bringing forward some important checks and balances. You do so as responsible legislators at a time when AI companies are failing to take responsibility for the design and impact of their products. Until they do and until those designs are corrected so women and girls are protected from the harm that might claim in others evidences, we must play our part. This technology does not respect geographic boundaries. And without international cooperation, our citizens will be left defenseless against those who put profit before protection. So I bring a message of bipartisan solidarity. I fight my legal action in the name of all the women and children whose likeness was misused by Grok and other AI tools built without their protection in mind. I hope my cause, in some way, helps to inform your proceedings today, and I look forward to your questions." }, { "turn_id": 657, "start_sec": 26823.67, "end_sec": 26826.31, "start_hms": "07:27:03", "end_hms": "07:27:06", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Assemblyman Bores.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Assemblyman Boris." }, { "turn_id": 658, "start_sec": 26829.99, "end_sec": 26971.201, "start_hms": "07:27:09", "end_hms": "07:29:31", "speaker_name": "Alex Bores", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 73", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 61, "text_clean": "Chair De La Rosa, Speaker Menin, members of the City Council, thank you for having us today. I'm the author of the RAISE Act, and I can definitively say that OpenAI opposed it from the moment it was introduced to the moment it was signed. I am no lawyer, but to me, my common man understanding of lying under oath is that it's perjury. And at the very least, you should be extremely angry at the company for disrespecting this counsel and saying things they know to be false to you directly. I'm very happy to cooperate with you or any of your lawyers if you want more information about what they said and when. Second, there have been a discussion of a lot of different issues today. We can and should solve all of them. In my time in the assembly, I passed the RAISE Act on catastrophic risk. I also worked with Senator Gonzalez on a bill on chatbots. I worked with Senator Gounardes on a bill on content provenance and training data transparency. And I found that the advocates that I worked with on each sub issue were different, but the opposition was always the same. Don't let the tech companies, don't let the AI companies divide us and say that in advocating for one issue, you're somehow harming advocacy for another issue. What we are doing is building the muscle to hold them accountable and to ensure that it's the American people who decide the future of this most important technology. Third, the time for voluntary commitments is over. The voluntary commitments that were signed at the White House last week largely mirror voluntary commitments that were signed in 2023 in the Biden White House. Promises have been made. It is time for laws to hold people accountable. And lastly, thank you New York City for stepping into your power. There's going to be a lot online from the tech companies about how they can't comply with different cities doing all these different things. It's the argument they use every time you try to regulate them. But New York City is larger than 38 states. All of the companies have large offices here. It is absolutely within your power, and I dare say your responsibility to take these threats seriously and to help decide the future of this technology to benefit all of us. So thank you for recognizing that, and thank you for doing it.", "text_unedited": "Chair de la Rosa, speaker Menon, members of the city council, thank you for having us today. I'm the author of the RAISE Act, and I can definitively say that OpenAI opposed it from the moment it was introduced to the moment it was signed. I am no lawyer, but to me, my common man understanding of lying under oath is that it's perjury. And at the very least, you should be extremely angry at the company for disrespecting this counsel and saying things they know to be false to you directly. I'm very happy to cooperate with you or any of your lawyers if you want more information about what they said and when. Second, there have been a discussion of a lot of different issues today. We can and should solve all of them. In my time in the assembly, I passed the RAISE Act on catastrophic risk. I also worked with senator Gonzales on a bill on chatbots. I worked with senator Gennardis on a bill on content provenance and training data transparency. And I found that the advocates that I worked with on each sub issue were different, but the opposition was always the same. Don't let the tech companies, don't let the AI companies divide us and say that in advocating for one issue, you're somehow harming advocacy for another issue. What we are doing is building the muscle to hold them accountable and to ensure that it's the American people who decide the future of this most important technology. Third, the time for voluntary commitments is over. The voluntary commitments that were signed at the White House last week largely mirror voluntary commitments that were signed in 2023 in the Biden White House. Promises have been made. It is time for laws to hold people accountable. And lastly, thank you New York City for stepping into your power. There's gonna be a lot online from the tech companies about how they can't comply with different cities doing all these different things. It's the argument they use every time you try to regulate them. But New York City is larger than 38 states. All of the companies have large offices here. It is absolutely within your power, and I dare say your responsibility to take these threats seriously and to help decide the future of this technology to benefit all of us. So thank you for recognizing that, and thank you for doing it." }, { "turn_id": 659, "start_sec": 26971.68, "end_sec": 26978.16, "start_hms": "07:29:31", "end_hms": "07:29:38", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all so much. We've also been joined by Senator Gounardes on Zoom. Senator, when you're ready.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all so much. We've also been joined by senator Gonardis on Zoom. Senator, when you're ready." }, { "turn_id": 660, "start_sec": 26979.445, "end_sec": 27207.135, "start_hms": "07:29:39", "end_hms": "07:33:27", "speaker_name": "Andrew Gounardes", "speaker_role": "NY State Senator, SD 26", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 22, "text_clean": "Thank you very much, everyone. I'm sorry I can't be there with you in person, but two out of my three children are homesick today. Therefore, I am playing doctor at home. I want to thank Speaker Menin and the members of the New you want to say hello here, James? Hello. And the members of the New York City Council for the opportunity to testify before you. I'm state senator Andrew Gounardes from Brooklyn, and I am the senate sponsor of the Responsible AI Safety and Education or RAISE Act. One of only three AI safety laws passed anywhere in this country. And I think we've heard a lot about the RAISE Act already. We've heard a lot about AI safety throughout this really remarkable hearing. I've been listening to a good portion of it all day. I really want to reflect on the fact that we're celebrating the nation's 250th anniversary this year, and I want us to think about a quote that comes from one of our founding fathers, James Madison, who wrote in Federalist No. 51, if men were angels, no government would be necessary. In other words, government exists because humans are imperfect and there are certain problems that the free market or individuals left to their own devices cannot solve. In these past few weeks, we have seen and heard headline after terrifying headline after terrifying headline about AI agents hacking websites, catastrophic risks of AI frontier AI models, and the like. And I just keep coming back to the imperative of Madison's words that men are not angels. And what I think this tells us and what I think you have heard very clearly today at this hearing is that we cannot trust the tech companies who are racing to the bottom to create and perfect a technology that they themselves say and have proven can cause catastrophic harms to regulate themselves. That we cannot trust that they will do the right thing because they have proven time and time and time again that they will always, when confronted with the choice of doing the right thing or doing what is in the best interest... Times expired.... Bottom line that they will always choose to pursue the bottom line. And so my message to the council today is I thank you all for taking on this initiative, for trying to hold these companies accountable. I echo the comments of my RAISE co sponsor, Assembly Member Bores. What we heard from OpenAI today was certainly news to me that they endorsed and supported the RAISE Act. Certainly not the RAISE Act that would have prevented them from releasing models that they knew were dangerous and could cause catastrophic harms. Certainly, the RAISE Act version that required third party auditing capabilities or extended liabilities for harms caused by their models. Clearly, none of that was ever on the table when they said that they had supported this legislation. We cannot trust these companies. The federal government is failing in its responsibility to take meaningful action. And so therefore, it's left to states like New York to be leaders in this space and work with partners like the New York City Council under all of your collective leadership to make sure that we are setting in place the right guardrails and protections not only to protect New Yorkers from the catastrophic risks that are associated with this AI technology, but frankly to protect all of us, all Americans, and everyone worldwide. Because we know that these harms will not be localized. We know that the scale of what's being developed will not just limit itself to one block, one borough, one city, one state. It'll affect everyone the world over. And in the face of an action, it's up to us to stand up and act. And so I thank you all for your attention to this and your support of this and look forward to work with you all in the future on strengthening things like the RAISE Act so we can actually hold these companies accountable. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you very much, everyone. I'm sorry I can't be there with you in person, but two out of my three children are homesick today. Therefore, I am playing doctor at home. I wanna thank speaker Menon and the members of the New you wanna say hello here, James? Hello. And the members of the New York City Council for the opportunity to testify before you. I'm state senator Andrew Guinardis from Brooklyn, and I am the senate sponsor of the Responsible AI Safety and Education or RAISE Act. One of only three AI safety laws passed anywhere in this country. And, you know, I think we've heard a lot about the RAISE Act already. We've heard a lot about AI safety throughout this this really remarkable hearing. I've been listening to a good portion of it all day. I really wanna reflect on the fact that we're celebrating the nation's two hundred and fiftieth anniversary this year, and I want us to think about a quote that comes from one of our founding fathers, James Madison, who wrote in Federalist, November fifty one, if men were angels, no government would be necessary. In other words, government exists because humans are imperfect and there are certain problems that the free market or individuals left to their own devices cannot solve. In these past few weeks, we have seen and heard headline after terrifying headline after terrifying headline about AI agents hacking websites, catastrophic risks of AI frontier frontier AI models, and the like. And I just keep coming back to the imperative of Madison's words that men are not angels. And what I think this tells us and what I think you have heard very clearly today at this hearing is that we cannot trust the tech companies who are racing to the bottom to create and perfect a technology that they themselves say and have proven can cause catastrophic harms to regulate themselves. That we cannot trust that they will do the right thing because they have proven time and time and time again that they will always, when confronted with the choice of doing the right thing or doing what is in the best interest... Times expired.... Bottom line that they will always choose to pursue the bottom line. And so my message to the council today is I thank you all for taking on this initiative, for trying to hold these companies accountable. I echo the comments of my RAISE co sponsor, Asumam Mambores. What we heard from OpenAI today was certainly news to me that they endorsed and supported the RAISE Act. Certainly not the RAISE Act that would have prevented them from releasing models that they know... That they knew were dangerous and could cause catastrophic harms. Certainly, the RAISE Act version that required third party auditing capabilities or extended liabilities for for harms caused by by their models. Clearly, none of that was ever on the table when when they've said... So said that they had supported this legislation. We cannot trust these companies. The federal government is failing in its response... In its responsibility to take meaningful action. And so therefore, it's left to states like New York to be leaders in this space and work with partners like the New York City Council under all of your collective leadership to make sure that we are setting in place the right guardrails and protections not only to protect New Yorkers from the catastrophic risks that are associated with these... This AI technology, but frankly to protect all of us, all Americans, and everyone worldwide. Because we know that these harms will not be localized. We know that the scale of what's being developed will not just limit itself to one block, one borough, one city, one state. It'll affect everyone the world over. And in the face of an action, it's up to us to stand up and act. And so I thank you all for your attention to this and your support of this and look forward to work with you all in the future on strengthening things like the RAISE Act so we can actually hold these companies accountable. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 661, "start_sec": 27207.951, "end_sec": 27249.83, "start_hms": "07:33:27", "end_hms": "07:34:09", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you, senator. We have a few questions for this panel, but I wanted to take a moment to thank you all. We do believe that city and state government have to work hand in hand, and we have to be the first line of defense in order to make sure that New Yorkers are protected. And each and every one of you has been such an important partner in making that accountability a reality on the state level. And, to the member of parliament, thank you for sharing your story and your bone... Your vulnerability and, moving, from that experience to action to hold these count... Companies accountable. My colleagues do have some questions for you all. But before we do that", "text_unedited": "Thank you, senator. We have a few questions for this panel, but I wanted to take a moment to thank you all. You know, we do believe that city and state government have to work hand in hand, and we have to be the first line of defense in order to make sure that New Yorkers are protected. And each and every one of you has been such an important partner in making that accountability a reality on the state level. And, to the member of parliament, thank you for sharing your story and your bone... Your vulnerability and, moving, from that experience to action to hold these count... Companies accountable. My colleagues do have some questions for you all. But before we do that" }, { "turn_id": 662, "start_sec": 27248.865, "end_sec": 27276.867, "start_hms": "07:34:08", "end_hms": "07:34:36", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I just want to thank all of our incredible elected officials, for being here today. We know how hard you've all worked on various legislation, and we really appreciate it so much. And, your expertise on this and particularly in terms of the RAISE Act, we really appreciate that. And so it's very helpful to have you here and to hear directly from you. So thank you. Thank you for waiting it out with us. We so appreciate that.", "text_unedited": "I just want to thank all of our incredible elected officials, for being here today. We know how hard you've all worked on various legislation, and we really appreciate it so much. And, your expertise on this and, you know, particularly in terms of the RAISE Act, we really appreciate that. And so it's very helpful to have you here and to hear directly from you. So thank you. Thank you for waiting it out with us. We so appreciate that." }, { "turn_id": 663, "start_sec": 27277.586, "end_sec": 27281.986, "start_hms": "07:34:37", "end_hms": "07:34:41", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. We are going to hear from Council Member Jose [?], followed by Gutiérrez,", "text_unedited": "Thank you. We are gonna hear from council member Jose, followed by Gutierrez," }, { "turn_id": 664, "start_sec": 27281.986, "end_sec": 27319.5, "start_hms": "07:34:41", "end_hms": "07:35:19", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "William, Deputy Speaker Williams, and then Council Member Hanif. Thank you, chair. I have a question for Assembly Member Bores. We heard today from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta that they supported the RAISE Act but felt like they wanted stronger regulations. But we know that during negotiations for New York State's RAISE Act, there was a push to lower penalties from $10 million to $30 million to $1 million to $3 million, which is chump change for these corporations. Why were the fines in the RAISE Act reduced from $10 to $30 million to only $1 to $3 million?", "text_unedited": "William, deputy speaker Williams, and then council member Hanif. Thank you, chair. I have a question for assembly member Boris. We heard today from OpenAI, Anthropic, Google, and Meta that they supported the RAISE Act but felt like they wanted stronger regulations. But we know that during negotiations for New York State's RAISE Act, there was a push to lower penalties from $10,000,000 to $30,000,000 to $1,000,000 to $3,000,000, which is chump change for these corporations. Why were the fines in the RAISE Act reduced from 10 to $30,000,000 to only 1 to $3,000,000?" }, { "turn_id": 665, "start_sec": 27320.379, "end_sec": 27398.725, "start_hms": "07:35:20", "end_hms": "07:36:38", "speaker_name": "Alex Bores", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 73", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 61, "text_clean": "Council member, thank you for that question. In the early drafts of the RAISE Act, the penalties were up to $10 million for the first violation, and, of course, that would be based on the severity of the violation, and up to $30 million for a second violation. The companies argued that that was too high because they were predicting that every state and perhaps municipalities would pass similar versions of the bill, and they would end up paying the fine in 50 states plus in additional municipalities. I disagreed at the time with that argument. I think that's been borne out since we've seen only three states pass it. But perhaps what's most confusing to me is that now they turn around and say that no other state should pass bills like this or that no city should pass bills like this because they're already paying the fines. Their rhetoric, their testimony was explicit that they are expecting to pay fines in many, many jurisdictions for the same action. And so I think that testimony is quite supportive of the bills that are being put forward today that would hold them accountable and put additional fines on behavior even if it is covered by the RAISE Act because, again, that was their own testimony as to why those fines should be lowered.", "text_unedited": "Council council member, thank you for that question. In the early drafts of the RAISE Act, the penalties were up to 10,000,000 for the first violation, and, of course, that would be based on the severity of the violation, and up to 30,000,000 for a second violation. The companies argued that that was too high because they were predicting that every state and perhaps municipalities would pass similar versions of the bill, and they would end up paying the fine in 50 states plus in additional municipalities. I I disagreed at the time with that argument. I think that's been borne out since we've seen only three states pass it. But perhaps what's most confusing to me is that now they turn around and say that no other state should pass bills like this or that no city should pass bills like this because they're already paying the fines. Their rhetoric, their testimony was explicit that they are expecting to pay fines in many, many jurisdictions for the same action. And so I think that testimony is quite supportive of the bills that are being put forward today that would hold them accountable and put additional fines on behavior even if it is covered by the RAISE Act because, again, that was their own testimony as to why those fines should be lowered." }, { "turn_id": 666, "start_sec": 27400.14, "end_sec": 27415.02, "start_hms": "07:36:40", "end_hms": "07:36:55", "speaker_name": "Chi Ossé", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 11, "text_clean": "Thank you very much. And, Senator Gonzalez, I would love to hear from you about some of the organizing that you've been doing, especially within the New York City Democratic Socialists of America around AI regulation and the vision that is being put forward within that regard.", "text_unedited": "Thank you very much. And, senator Gonzalez, I would love to hear from you about some of the organizing that you've been doing, especially within the New York City Democratic Socialists of America around AI regulation and the vision that is being put forward within that regard." }, { "turn_id": 667, "start_sec": 27416.424, "end_sec": 27505.865, "start_hms": "07:36:56", "end_hms": "07:38:25", "speaker_name": "Kristen Gonzalez", "speaker_role": "NY State Senator, SD 59", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 58, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, council member. As a fellow member of the Democratic Socialists of America, one thing I spoke about in my testimony was prioritizing a rights based approach. I think it is so important to put New Yorkers first by clarifying and setting the terms for what our digital rights should be over the profit driven motives of so many of these tech companies and tech oligarchs. That's why we've worked hard on the New York AI act. We've certainly supported legislation on frontier models and reining them in, but New Yorkers who are marginalized are feeling the impacts of imperfect tools every single day, and I'm proud that the tech action working group has focused on this issue. In addition, I've worked with a statewide coalition beyond, the Democratic Socialists of America, but that include environmental justice organizations like Food and Water Watch and more that are in the fight against hyperscale data centers. Because as we're talking about the real world harms that are being felt and the potential catastrophic risks, every single day, people in Upstate New York, in the capital region, in the Hudson Valley are feeling what it means to live near a hyperscale data center. There are millions of gallons of water being pulled from our state's lakes right now. Communities are dealing with noise pollution and air pollution right now, And it's really important to legislate not only the risks, but legislate those data center driven harms. Thank you. Both.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, council member. As a fellow member of the Democratic Socialists of America, one thing I spoke about in my testimony was prioritizing a rights based approach. I think it is so important to put New Yorkers first by clarifying and setting the terms for what our digital rights should be over the profit driven motives of so many of these tech companies and tech oligarchs. That's why we've worked hard on the New York AI act. We've certainly supported legislation on frontier models and reining them in, but New Yorkers who are marginalized are feeling the impacts of imperfect tools every single day, and I'm proud that the tech action working group has focused on this issue. In addition, I've worked with a statewide coalition beyond, the Democratic Socialists of America, but that include environmental justice organizations like Food and Water Watch and more that are in the fight against hyperscale data centers. Because as we're talking about the real world harms that are being felt and the potential catastrophic risks, every single day, people in Upstate New York, in the capital region, in the Hudson Valley are feeling what it means to live near a hyperscale data center. There are millions of gallons of water being pulled from our state's lakes right now. Communities are dealing with noise pollution and air pollution right now, And it's really important to legislate not only the risks, but legislate those data center driven harms. Thank you. Both." }, { "turn_id": 668, "start_sec": 27506.266, "end_sec": 27508.746, "start_hms": "07:38:26", "end_hms": "07:38:28", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thanks. Thank you. Council Member Gutiérrez?", "text_unedited": "Thanks. Thank you. Councilmember Gutierrez?" }, { "turn_id": 669, "start_sec": 27508.986, "end_sec": 27572.91, "start_hms": "07:38:28", "end_hms": "07:39:32", "speaker_name": "Jennifer Gutiérrez", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 51, "text_clean": "Thank you. Senator from London... I'm sorry. Didn't catch your name. I think... I apologize. Thank you for your testimony and for educating us on the volatility of this tech company. I know you're in process right now, but could you share a little bit about legislatively what you think, if existed, if in place a guardrail, what could have in any way prevented what happened to you? How can we... Whether the state or the city legislate specifically to objectifying and potentially, images that include sexual harm to people, what have you learned or have you seen that we can potentially legislate? And then I just had one more question for Senator Gonzalez. I love hearing you talk about your disdain for data centers. Can you share for us a minute, afterwards just what you what you've what you were feeling hearing some of these tech companies, during their testimony? Thank you. Thank", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Senator from from London... I'm sorry. Didn't catch your name. I think... I apologize. Thank you for for your testimony and for educating us on the volatility of of this tech company. I know you're you're in process right now, but could you share a little bit about legislatively what you think, if existed, if in place a guardrail, what could have in any way prevented what happened to you? How how can we... Whether the state or the city legislate specifically to objectifying and and potentially, images that include sexual harm to people, what what have you learned or have you seen that we can potentially legislate? And then I just had one more question for senator Gonzalez. I love hearing you talk about your disdain for data centers. Can you share for us a minute, afterwards just what you what you've what you were feeling hearing some of these tech tech companies, during their testimony? Thank you. Thank" }, { "turn_id": 670, "start_sec": 27574.67, "end_sec": 27657.854, "start_hms": "07:39:34", "end_hms": "07:40:57", "speaker_name": "Jess Asato", "speaker_role": "UK Member of Parliament, Lowestoft", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 60, "text_clean": "you so much for your question. I'll try to be brief. Within The UK, we already have data protection and privacy laws, which is the basis under which I'm bringing my claim. And, of course, we're going to test that in court. But, clearly, if your image and your likeness forms part of your data, then making sure that everybody, has that aspect understood by AI companies could mean that they would then have to treat our likeness and our data differently in future. But, also, the UK government has recently made the sort of generation of nonconsensual intimate imagery a criminal offense, and as part of that, has brought, the operation of AI chatbots into our online safety act so that our regulator Ofcom can also make sure that if, an AI company is allowing users to create nonconsensual intimate imagery, that act is a criminal, sort of act happening on their platform. And so it gives it more of a ability to be taken down. But from my own perspective, it's about consent. In the end, whether it is nonconsensual intimate imagery or just nonconsensual imagery, if we haven't consented to it, then it shouldn't be allowed to do it.", "text_unedited": "you so much for your question. I'll try to be brief. Within The UK, we already have data protection and privacy laws, which is the basis under which I'm bringing my claim. And, of course, we're going to test that in court. But, clearly, if your image and your likeness forms part of your data, then making sure that everybody, has that aspect understood by AI companies could mean that they would then have to treat our likeness and and our data differently in future. But, also, the UK government has recently made the sort of generation of nonconsensual intimate imagery a criminal offense, and as part of that, has brought, the operation of AI chatbots into our online safety act so that our regulator Ofcom can also make sure that if, an AI company is allowing users to create nonconsensual intimate imagery, that that act is a is a criminal, sort of act happening on their platform. And so it gives it more of a ability to be taken down. But from my own perspective, it's about consent. In the end, whether it is nonconsensual intimate imagery or just nonconsensual imagery, if we haven't consented to it, then it shouldn't be allowed to do it." }, { "turn_id": 671, "start_sec": 27658.621, "end_sec": 27670.46, "start_hms": "07:40:58", "end_hms": "07:41:10", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "I just want to interject and thank you so much for coming. I mean, to come, as far as you travel to be here personally to testify, it really means a lot to us, and we deeply appreciate it.", "text_unedited": "I just wanna interject and thank you so much for coming. I mean, to come, you know, as far as you travel to be here personally to testify, it really means a lot to us, and we deeply appreciate it." }, { "turn_id": 672, "start_sec": 27674.574, "end_sec": 27772.791, "start_hms": "07:41:14", "end_hms": "07:42:52", "speaker_name": "Kristen Gonzalez", "speaker_role": "NY State Senator, SD 59", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 58, "text_clean": "And thank you so much. Again, I think this is a great segue to the fact that there are international safety standards. So much of the work that I've done has been to call out the fact that there are not only standards like ISO 42,001 or national standards like the risk AI framework that these companies could comply with, but actively lobby against bills that would require them to. And, to the council member's question and what I was feeling, I was feeling so much of the same frustration that my colleagues on this panel expressed earlier. These companies are speaking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they'll say that they want regulation, but anytime a single bill that would meaningfully hold them to account is brought in front of them, they will say, but not like that. When we talk about catastrophic risks, many of the bills that have been put forward and even with the stated past, for example, had set definitions at a 100 deaths or billions of dollars of damage. Even that was considered too low of a threshold for many of these AI companies. And bills like the one that I mentioned that protects our kids, that seeks to say that a single kid being coached to commit suicide, which has actively happened in multiple cases across the country, is one kid too many, is considered unacceptable to these tech companies. So I feel an incredible amount of frustration while I feel an incredible amount of hope seeing you not only have this hearing, but all of us as legislators step up to meet the moment and regulate and rein in these tech companies. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "And thank you so much. Again, I think this is a great segue to the fact that there are international safety standards. So much of the work that I've done has been to call out the fact that there are not only standards like ISO 42,001 or national standards like the risk AI framework that these companies could comply with, but actively lobby against bills that would require them to. And, to the council member's question and what I was feeling, I was feeling so much of the same frustration that my colleagues on this panel expressed earlier. These companies are speaking out of both sides of their mouths. On the one hand, they'll say that they want regulation, but anytime a single bill that would meaningfully hold them to account is brought in front of them, they will say, but not like that. When we talk about catastrophic risks, many of the bills that have been put forward and even with the stated past, for example, had set definitions at a 100 deaths or billions of dollars of damage. Even that was considered too low of a threshold for many of these AI companies. And bills like the one that I mentioned that protects our kids, that seeks to say that a single kid being coached to commit suicide, which has actively happened in multiple cases across the country, is one kid too many, is considered unacceptable to these tech companies. So I feel an incredible amount of frustration while I feel an incredible amount of hope seeing you not only have this hearing, but all of us as legislators step up to meet the moment and regulate and rein in these tech companies. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 673, "start_sec": 27773.67, "end_sec": 27774.71, "start_hms": "07:42:53", "end_hms": "07:42:54", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 674, "start_sec": 27775.59, "end_sec": 27799.43, "start_hms": "07:42:55", "end_hms": "07:43:19", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Deputy Speaker Williams followed by Council Member Hanif and then Maloney. Thank you. Yeah. I also just wanted to thank you all for coming. So the question I have for the state members is how can we be helpful? I know that there are a ton of resolutions that are supporting state bills. It would be helpful just to let us how we can be helpful and how we can work more closely together.", "text_unedited": "Deputy speaker Williams followed by council member Hanif and then Maloney. Thank you. Yeah. I also just wanted to thank you all for coming. So the question I have for the state members is how can we be helpful? I know that there are a ton of resolutions that are supporting state bills. It would be helpful just to let us how we can be helpful and how we can work more closely together." }, { "turn_id": 675, "start_sec": 27801.19, "end_sec": 27843.256, "start_hms": "07:43:21", "end_hms": "07:44:03", "speaker_name": "Clyde Vanel", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 33", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 27, "text_clean": "Well, deputy speaker, thank you for that. Thank you for asking that question. What's really important is this step, toward... This hearing and this step towards this is very important. It's a big deal that you guys are having this hearing, calling the industry here and the different panels. We have to work on... Now this is hard. This is difficult, but we have to work on it head on. And what's very important is for us to be able to coordinate our to see that we were having a good relationship with many of the members. I have a great relationship with the with the chair of technology. It's very important for us to be able to work on this. And there are many layers to addressing what's, this technology, and we touched on a lot of them today, but we have to work on this together.", "text_unedited": "Well, deputy speaker, thank you for that. Thank you for asking that question. What's really important is this step, toward... This hearing and this step towards this is very important. You know, it's it's a big deal that you guys are having this hearing, calling the, you know, the industry here and and and the different panels. We have to work on... Now this is hard. This is difficult, but we have to work on it head on. And what's very important is for us to be able to coordinate our to see that, you know, we we were having a good relationship with many of the the members. I have a great relationship with the with the chair of technology. It's very important for us to be able to work on this. And there are many layers to addressing what's, this technology, and we touched on a lot of them today, but we have to work on this together." }, { "turn_id": 676, "start_sec": 27845.096, "end_sec": 27854.871, "start_hms": "07:44:05", "end_hms": "07:44:14", "speaker_name": "Jordan Wright", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 70", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 59, "text_clean": "Ditto. And I know how appealing Albany can be, so please come on up and help us as we're rallying for different pieces of legislation and, hitting the pavement and getting harder work. Thank you, council member.", "text_unedited": "Ditto. And I know how appealing Albany can be, so please come on up and help us as we're rallying for different pieces of legislation and, hitting the pavement and getting harder work. Thank you, council member." }, { "turn_id": 677, "start_sec": 27856.07, "end_sec": 27912.86, "start_hms": "07:44:16", "end_hms": "07:45:12", "speaker_name": "Andrew Gounardes", "speaker_role": "NY State Senator, SD 26", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 22, "text_clean": "And I would just chime in there. Think, what we heard here today... What you all heard today was many of these companies basically speak out of both sides of their mouths about what they think the appropriate role of government to be is in. So next year, when we're up in Albany trying to fight to pass all of these different laws and we're being bombarded by tens of millions of dollars from these companies with lobbyists and ads and radio ads and text messages and everything, Having your voices to go back into your communities and to come up to talk to our colleagues and say, hey, we held this hearing. They lied to us about x y and z, a b and c, and here's the proof of it. This way, we can call these companies out when they're trying to have it both ways. You all experience that firsthand and you being able to speak to that and remind the public about that time and time and time again will only further to bolster the momentum that we have on our side to put in place these guardrails and protections, whether it's around bias or safety or any of the other issues that we've been talking about during this hearing.", "text_unedited": "And I would just chime in there. Think, you know, what we heard here today... What you all heard today was many of these companies basically speak out of both sides of their mouths about what they think the appropriate role of government to be is in. So next year, when we're up in Albany trying to fight to pass all of these different laws and we're, you know, being bombarded by tens of millions of dollars from these companies with lobbyists and ads and radio ads and text messages and everything, Having your voices to go back into your communities and to come up to talk to our colleagues and say, hey, we held this hearing. They lied to us about x y and z, a b and c, and, like, here's the proof of it. This way, we can call these companies out when they're trying to have it both ways. You all experience that firsthand and you being able to speak to that and remind the public about that time and time and time again will only further to bolster the momentum that we have on our side to put in place these guardrails and protections, whether it's around bias or safety or any of the other issues that we've been talking about during this hearing." }, { "turn_id": 678, "start_sec": 27913.818, "end_sec": 27998.75, "start_hms": "07:45:13", "end_hms": "07:46:38", "speaker_name": "Alex Bores", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 73", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 61, "text_clean": "To follow on the senator's comments, the company say different things to different levels of government. A few weeks ago, I was actually in Brussels. I met with a few members of the European Parliament to talk about the passage of the EUAI Act, and we compared what we were lobbied on. And surprising to me, catastrophic risk didn't really come up in the EU, but they got a lot of lobbying around copyright. And my assumption is because they thought the courts are stronger on copyright in Europe, and so that's what they lobbied on there and said very different things in America, in New York state. I imagine they're saying different things in Albany as they will say here to you in the city council, and we should all be sharing notes on what's being said and holding them to account and making sure that it's a consistent message. The other bit that I would add is, the governor has signaled that she wants to strengthen the RAISE Act and put new proposals in her budget proposal. Please be part of that conversation. When the city council submits its budget requests, obviously, you should focus on the fiscal needs first and foremost, but the state budget tends to be a broad document. And if you have policy ideas that for some reason or another need state approval, think of that as another mechanism, another lever that you have to help ensure that you can do the best job for your constituents.", "text_unedited": "To follow on on on the senator's comments, the company say different things to different levels of government. A few weeks ago, I was actually in Brussels. I met with a few members of the European Parliament to talk about the passage of the EUAI Act, and we compared what we were lobbied on. And surprising to me, catastrophic risk didn't really come up in the EU, but they got a lot of lobbying around copyright. And my assumption is because they thought the courts are stronger on copyright in Europe, and so that's what they lobbied on there and said very different things in America, in New York state. I imagine they're saying different things in Albany as they will say here to you in the city council, and we should all be sharing notes on what's being said and holding them to account and making sure that it's a consistent message. The other bit that I would add is, the governor has signaled that she wants to strengthen the RAISE Act and put new proposals in her budget proposal. Please be part of that conversation. When the city council submits its budget requests, obviously, you should focus on the fiscal needs first and foremost, but the state budget tends to be a a broad document. And if you have policy ideas that for some reason or another need state approval, think of that as another mechanism, another lever that you have to help ensure that you can do the best job for your constituents." }, { "turn_id": 679, "start_sec": 27999.709, "end_sec": 28041.576, "start_hms": "07:46:39", "end_hms": "07:47:21", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Just, two more quick questions. I passed the bill and the chair has a bill on AI's impact on the municipal workforce. Just wondering if there was any traction on that for the state's workforce. And then just a question for, the member of parliament. My bill that we're hearing today is to address unauthorized use of deepfakes. So in addition to the privacy laws, and Britain just wanted to know, if you all have specific legislation around deepfakes. Oh, and what you... How you envision the cooperation with the international community because you mentioned that. And what does that look like for you?", "text_unedited": "Just, two more quick questions. I passed the bill and the chair has a bill on AI's impact on the municipal workforce. Just wondering if there was any traction on that for the state's workforce. And then just a question for, the member of parliament. My bill that we're hearing today is to address unauthorized use of deepfakes. So in addition to the privacy laws, and Britain just wanted to know, if you all have specific legislation around deepfakes. Oh, and what you... How you envision the cooperation with the international community because you mentioned that. And what does that look like for you?" }, { "turn_id": 680, "start_sec": 28044.295, "end_sec": 28180.574, "start_hms": "07:47:24", "end_hms": "07:49:40", "speaker_name": "Jess Asato", "speaker_role": "UK Member of Parliament, Lowestoft", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 60, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your question. We know that female, elected representatives are 33 times more likely to be targeted by sexual deepfakes than men. The whole issue around sexualized deepfakes is deeply gendered, and I think it's very important that we acknowledge that. Because what it does is it drives women from the public space. We know that women are less likely to talk about politics online than men are, and that is because they become a target as soon as they raise their heads in this place, which is not social. That is why taking action on this is so important and to be commended in terms of looking at this. But when we're looking at these deepfakes, it needs to be for all of our citizens, because it's not just about protecting those of us who have the honor of being elected. It is about coworkers who may be targeted because they didn't smile at the right time or your last date, he wouldn't go on a second date with you or teachers who are being targeted by their male students. All of these people need protection. That's why in The UK, we have taken steps to make sure that there is a criminalization of the creation of nonconsensual sexual deepfakes. But my view is that we need to go further than just the sexualized deepfakes because any act could be harmful to women. The removal of a woman's hijab through AI could put that woman in harm's way, but there's nothing sexualized about it. And so we have to look at this as an issue, as I said, of consent. And that is where data and privacy is so, so important, and that's where I think there could be international agreement. We can see, as you said, that things are moving forward within the EU space. Really, though, what we need is for tech companies to be safe by design. And every single country has those rules. We should be looking at product regulation just as we do in the offline sphere. The end of the day, we have cars that have seat belts and they have airbags, and that's because we expect them to be safe by design. It is not too much to expect that of the tech products that we use today.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your question. We know that female, elected representatives are 33 times more likely to be targeted by sexual deepfakes than men. The whole issue around sexualized deepfakes is deeply gendered, and I think it's very important that we acknowledge that. Because what it does is it drives women from the public space. We know that women are less likely to talk about politics online than men are, and that is because they become a target as soon as they raise their heads in this place, which is not social. That is why taking action on this is so important and, you know, to be commended in terms of looking at this. But when we're looking at these deepfakes, it needs to be for all of our citizens, because it's not just about protecting those of us who have the honor of being elected. It is about, you know, coworkers who may be targeted because, you know, they didn't smile at the right time or your last date, he wouldn't go on a second date with you or teachers who are being targeted by their male students. All of these people need protection. That's why in The UK, we have taken steps to make sure that there is a criminalization of the creation of nonconsensual sexual deepfakes. But my view is that we need to go further than just the sexualized deepfakes because any act could be harmful to women. The removal of a woman's hijab through AI could put that woman in harm's way, but there's nothing sexualized about it. And so we have to look at this as an issue, as I said, of consent. And that is where data and privacy is so, so important, and that's where I think there could be international agreement. We can see, as you said, that things are moving forward within the EU space. Really, though, what we need is for tech companies to be safe by design. And every single country has those rules. We should be looking at product regulation just as we do in the offline sphere. The end of the day, we have cars that have seat belts and they have airbags, and that's because we expect them to be safe by design. It is not too much to expect that of the tech products that we use today." }, { "turn_id": 681, "start_sec": 28183.682, "end_sec": 28221.4, "start_hms": "07:49:43", "end_hms": "07:50:21", "speaker_name": "Alex Bores", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 73", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 61, "text_clean": "On the question about the state workforce, I wish Senator Gonzalez, could have heard that because she wrote the Loading Act, which helps to protect the state workforce. And I think there's an update to it pending before the governor, which leads me to you asking about deep fakes as well. There's a bill from Senator Gennartis and I pending before the governor on that. Senator Gonzalez also mentioned chatbots to protect kids. There's a bill pending before the governor. So I should have also added on ways you can help out is we are really happy to be here and advocate for the legislation you are putting forward and invite you, if you agree with some that's pending for the governor, to be a partner in pushing that as well.", "text_unedited": "On the the question about the state workforce, I wish senator Gonzalez, could have heard that because she wrote the Loading Act, which which helps to protect the state workforce. And I think there's an update to it pending before the governor, which leads me to you asking about deep fakes as well. There's a bill from senator Gennartis and I pending before the governor on that. Senator Gonzalez also mentioned chatbots to protect kids. There's a bill pending before the governor. So I should have also added on ways you can help out is we are really happy to be here and advocate for the legislation you are putting forward and invite you, if you agree with some that's pending for the governor, to be a partner in pushing that as well." }, { "turn_id": 682, "start_sec": 28222.76, "end_sec": 28277.39, "start_hms": "07:50:22", "end_hms": "07:51:17", "speaker_name": "Clyde Vanel", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 33", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 27, "text_clean": "Yeah. We have a number of deepfake bills, and we passed actually a number of... A couple of my bills became law with respect to deepfakes, with respect to elections. One of the one of the new bills that just came out was just very recently, I discovered an artist that I fell in love with on Apple Music, and I downloaded all her music. I've been listening it for... To her music for a while. I actually went to go look for her a couple of days ago to follow her to go to a concert or something like that, found out it's not a person. So there's no law, there's no regulation at all for these platforms to tell you whether or not you're listening to a real person or not. Right? So that the bill... So one of the things that we have to do is figure out what that looks like moving forward. So we're going to need your help on that. That's something that we're going to really need your help on. Yeah. Ask them specifically a question about that, and it was very fluffy. It was... But I literally asked a question about that to the companies.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. We we have a number of deepfake bills, and we passed actually a number of... A couple of my bills became law with respect to deepfakes, with respect to elections. One of the one of the new bills that just came out was just very recently, I I discovered an artist that I fell in love with on on on on on Apple Music, and I downloaded all her music. I've been listening it for... To her music for a while. I actually went to go look for her a couple of days ago to follow her to go to a concert or something like that, found out it's not a person. So there's no law, there's no regulation at all for these platforms to tell you whether or not you're listening to a real person or not. Right? So so that, you know, the bill... So one of the things that we have to do is figure out what that looks like moving forward. So we're gonna need your help on that. That's something that we're gonna really need your help on. Yeah. Ask them specifically a question about that, and it was very fluffy. It was... But I literally asked a question about that to the companies." }, { "turn_id": 683, "start_sec": 28279.55, "end_sec": 28280.912, "start_hms": "07:51:19", "end_hms": "07:51:20", "speaker_name": "Nantasha Williams", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 23, "text_clean": "Thank you all. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 684, "start_sec": 28281.55, "end_sec": 28306.762, "start_hms": "07:51:21", "end_hms": "07:51:46", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "One last question, from member of parliament, Asada. Thank you. I wanted to ask you, as you may know, when we called this hearing, we sent letters to five companies, to Anthropic, OpenAI, Meta, Google, and SpaceX AI. SpaceXAI is the only company that would not appear. We have subpoenaed them. Given your personal story, I just wanted to get your reaction to that.", "text_unedited": "One last question, from member of parliament, Asada. Thank you. I wanted to ask you, as as you may know, when we called this hearing, we sent letters to five companies, to Anthropic, OpenAI, Meta, Google, and SpaceX AI. SpaceXAI is the only company that would not appear. We have subpoenaed them. Given your personal story, I just wanted to get your reaction to that." }, { "turn_id": 685, "start_sec": 28308.68, "end_sec": 28348.535, "start_hms": "07:51:48", "end_hms": "07:52:28", "speaker_name": "Jess Asato", "speaker_role": "UK Member of Parliament, Lowestoft", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 60, "text_clean": "Well, as I said in my opening statements, it's a huge shame given that they are so close and I have come so far. But in the end, you've subpoenaed them, and we look forward to seeing what then happens. In the end, everybody should be accountable to elected representatives. And you're very powerful here in, the city of New York because of the fact that these companies are based here. And therefore, those of us who are in other countries across the world are looking to you to hold these companies to account, and we very much look forward to doing so. I will do my own part in terms of my legal action in The UK. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Well, as I said in my opening statements, it's a huge shame given that they are so close and I have come so far. But in the end, you've subpoenaed them, and we look forward to seeing what then happens. In the end, everybody should be accountable to elected representatives. And you're very powerful here in, the city of New York because of the fact that these companies are based here. And therefore, those of us who are in other countries across the world are looking to you to hold these companies to account, and we very much look forward to doing so. I will do my own part in terms of my legal action in The UK. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 686, "start_sec": 28349.654, "end_sec": 28351.814, "start_hms": "07:52:29", "end_hms": "07:52:31", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Council Member Hanif followed by Maloney.", "text_unedited": "Council member Hani followed by Maloney." }, { "turn_id": 687, "start_sec": 28351.975, "end_sec": 28417.92, "start_hms": "07:52:31", "end_hms": "07:53:37", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "Thank you, and thank you to the member of parliament. Your experience really shows how generative AI, can be weaponized against women, queer people, trans people, and particularly those of us in public life. And I'm super, super grateful that you're using your platform as a legislator centering, gender justice and tech surveillance. I think all day, it's in this panel that we're really able to tease into that particular issue, which is devastating. There are so many survivors of AI generated, sexual abuse who have no recourse. And I know we touched on, several components of this issue in terms of legislation policy. Could you speak more broadly about gender justice as it comes to AI systems? I mean, certainly, we're going to be regulating these systems, but the responsibility that, our communities have in addition to, of course, as legislators passing stronger regulations?", "text_unedited": "Thank you, and thank you to the member of parliament. Your experience really shows how generative AI, can be weaponized against women, queer people, trans people, and particularly those of us in public life. And I'm super, super grateful that you're using your platform as a legislator centering, gender justice and tech surveillance. I think all day, it's in this panel that we're really able to tease into that particular issue, which is devastating. There are so many survivors of AI generated, sexual abuse who have no recourse. And I know we touched on, several components of this issue in terms of legislation policy. Could you speak more broadly about gender justice as it comes to AI systems? I mean, certainly, we're gonna be regulating these systems, but the responsibility that, our communities have in addition to, of course, as legislators passing stronger regulations?" }, { "turn_id": 688, "start_sec": 28419.92, "end_sec": 28534.74, "start_hms": "07:53:39", "end_hms": "07:55:34", "speaker_name": "Jess Asato", "speaker_role": "UK Member of Parliament, Lowestoft", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 60, "text_clean": "Thank you for your question. I think that one of the issues here is that the whole of the online space has been developed without the sort of social norms that we would actually expect of each other in our offline world. And therefore, when it comes to gender justice, as you talk about it, that is ignored, because, actually, the Internet and these platforms were created by men in the main. They were not shaped, by women. They were not shaped with children in mind. And therefore, we're having to try to reverse decades now of a wild west of development. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do, and I think we're seeing that actually our communities are actually fighting back. And one of the things that has been really sort of fantastic in terms of my own case is the number of people coming forward saying, I'm so glad that somebody, somewhere is trying to stand up for those of us who think that this is wrong. And we don't want to live in this space where so many people are being discriminated against. Having said that, of course, there were very, very strong, sort of positions taken out there around freedom of speech. And what I would say is that when women and other minorities decide not to be in a space, they lose their freedom of speech. And I think it's something that we simply aren't recognizing enough because freedom of speech should not be about the loudest voices, the ones who have the most money or the most power. Freedom of speech should be about all of us equally being able to be in these spaces on an equal basis. So that's what I hope we're all fighting for today.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for your question. I think that one of the issues here is that the whole of the online space has been developed without the sort of social norms that we would actually expect of each other in our offline world. And therefore, when it comes to gender justice, as you talk about it, that is ignored, because, actually, the Internet and these platforms were created by men in the main. They were not shaped, by women. They were not shaped with children in mind. And therefore, we're having to try to reverse decades now of a wild west of development. But that doesn't mean that it's impossible to do, and I think we're seeing that actually our communities are actually fighting back. And one of the things that has been really sort of fantastic in terms of my own case is the number of people coming forward saying, I'm so glad that somebody, somewhere is trying to stand up for those of us who think that this is wrong. And we don't want to live in this space where so many people are being discriminated against. Having said that, of course, there were very, very strong, you know, sort of positions taken out there around freedom of speech. And what I would say is is that when women and other minorities decide not to be in a space, they lose their freedom of speech. And I think it's something that we simply aren't recognizing enough because freedom of speech should not be about the loudest voices, the ones who have the most money or the most power. Freedom of speech should be about all of us equally being able to be in these spaces on an equal basis. So that's what I hope we're all fighting for today." }, { "turn_id": 689, "start_sec": 28540.895, "end_sec": 28543.775, "start_hms": "07:55:40", "end_hms": "07:55:43", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Council Member Maloney?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Councilmember Maloney?" }, { "turn_id": 690, "start_sec": 28545.215, "end_sec": 28597.576, "start_hms": "07:55:45", "end_hms": "07:56:37", "speaker_name": "Virginia Maloney", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 36, "text_clean": "Thank you, chair, and thank you all for being here. A special welcome to my state colleagues who also represent the constituents of District 4, Assembly Member Alex Bores and, state Senator Gonzalez who was here before. And I also want to thank you for your work in Albany, to pass the RAISE Act. Because of you, New York was the first in the nation to pass a Frontier AI safety bill that went into law. But I wanted to ask about the process. The original bill had penalties of $10 million up to $30 million. And the final version is looking more like $1 million to $3 million. These companies are able to spend millions of dollars training models. What teeth does this bill actually have now as law? And can you speak to why, those fines were reduced? Open to anyone who'd like to comment.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, chair, and thank you all for being here. A special welcome to my state colleagues who also represent the constituents of District 4, assembly member Alex Boras and, state senator Gonzales who was here before. And I also wanna thank you for your work in Albany, to pass the RAISE Act. Because of you, New York was the first in the nation to pass a Frontier AI safety bill that went into law. But I wanted to ask about the process. The original bill had penalties of 10,000,000 up to 30,000,000. And the final version is looking more like 1,000,000 to 3,000,000. These companies are able to spend millions of dollars training models. What what teeth does this bill actually have now as law? And can you speak to why, those fines were reduced? Open to anyone who'd like to comment." }, { "turn_id": 691, "start_sec": 28598.535, "end_sec": 28668.441, "start_hms": "07:56:38", "end_hms": "07:57:48", "speaker_name": "Alex Bores", "speaker_role": "NY State Assembly Member, AD 73", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 61, "text_clean": "Those fines were reduced because the companies insisted that they would be paying similar fines in every municipality and every state because, obviously, every state municipality would pass a copycat law. The fact that here we are and there are three states that have passed such a law, suggests that they significantly underestimated their own lobbying power, but also I think gives credence to the effort of what you are doing here today of holding them accountable and that multiple municipalities and jurisdictions should do that. $1 to $3 million is nothing for these companies. Absolutely nothing. It's about what they are going to pay just to register in New York to, the DIGIT office that will be regulating them. The... Depending on the number of companies that qualify, it'll be $1 to $2 million. So that is not an amount that provides an incentive strong enough to change behavior. Maybe private rights of action, maybe whistleblower protections, maybe requiring outside audits, maybe a lot of the things that this council is considering will, but certainly a million to $3 million won't.", "text_unedited": "Those fines were reduced because the companies insisted that they would be paying similar fines in every municipality and every state because, obviously, every state municipality would pass a copycat law. The fact that here we are and there are three states that have passed such a law, suggests that they significantly underestimated their own lobbying power, but also I think gives credence to the effort of what you are doing here today of holding them accountable and that multiple municipalities and jurisdictions should do that. 1 to $3,000,000 is nothing for these companies. Absolutely nothing. It's about what they are gonna pay just to register in New York to, the DIGIT office that will be regulating them. The... Depending on the number of companies that qualify, it'll be 1 to $2,000,000. So that is not an amount that provides an incentive strong enough to change behavior. Maybe private rights of action, maybe whistleblower protections, maybe requiring outside audits, maybe a lot of the things that this council is considering will, but certainly a million to 3,000,000 won't." }, { "turn_id": 692, "start_sec": 28669.72, "end_sec": 28762.46, "start_hms": "07:57:49", "end_hms": "07:59:22", "speaker_name": "Unidentified State Senator", "speaker_role": "Witness — NY State Senate", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 22, "text_clean": "I'll just add to that. I totally agree with what as a member Bores said. The one, I think, novel thing about the DIGIT office that we created as part of the RAISE Act is that we empowered the state regulator to not only receive the safety reports and the safety plans of these companies and to assess the validity and the legitimacy of those reports. But also, we empower them to propose and study the issue of continuing improvement to our AI safety laws so that we develop the expertise over time about how we can make our laws like the RAISE Act stronger. So today, that function does not do anything currently, but it is our hope and our expectation that as the RAISE Act is implemented, as the changes... This technology become more evident, we develop a deeper state based, as a... An administrative state expertise in this field to be able to propose far reaching and ambitious guardrails for the next iteration and the next iteration after that and not have to rely on, as we did early on, hearing from companies about what they could or could not do and not have sufficient, for lack of a better word, firepower behind us to always be able to answer back, in a way that would able to win over our critics. And so the digital office in the future should have this ability to play a much larger role than it currently does. And I certainly look forward to seeing that come to fruition as we see the law be further implemented.", "text_unedited": "I'll just add to that. I totally agree with what as a member Boris said. The the one, I think, novel thing about the DIGIT office that we created as part of the RAISE Act is that we empowered the state regulator to not only receive the safety reports and the safety plans of these companies and to, you know, assess the validity and the legitimacy of those reports. But also, we empower them to propose and and study the issue of continuing improvement to our AI safety laws so that we develop the expertise over time about how we can make our laws like the RAISE Act stronger. So today, that, you know, that function does not do anything currently, but it is our hope and our expectation that as the RAISE Act is implemented, as the changes... This technology become more evident, we develop a deeper state based, you know, as as a... An administrative state expertise in this field to be able to propose far reaching and ambitious guardrails for the next iteration and the next iteration after that and not have to rely on, as we did early on, you know, hearing from companies about what what they could or could not do and not have sufficient, for lack of a better word, firepower behind us to always be able to answer back, in a way that would able to win over our our critics. And so the digital office in the future should have this ability to play a much larger role than it currently does. And and I I certainly look forward to seeing that come to fruition as as we see the law be further implemented." }, { "turn_id": 693, "start_sec": 28766.824, "end_sec": 28790.78, "start_hms": "07:59:26", "end_hms": "07:59:50", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Alright. Well, thank you all again for being here and for taking the time and for your patience. We're going to call up the next panel. Eli Dorkin, Corinne Worthington, Noel Hidalgo, Neil Getnick, Gabe Weil, and Andrew Rasiej. And, again, if I mess up your names, correct it for the record, and thank you.", "text_unedited": "Alright. Well, thank you all again for being here and for taking the time and for your patience. We're gonna call up the next panel. Eli Dorkin, Corinne Worthington, Noel Idalgo, Neil Gettnick, Gabe Weil, and Andrew Reich. And, again, if I mess up your names, correct it for the record, and thank you." }, { "turn_id": 694, "start_sec": 28802.566, "end_sec": 28806.566, "start_hms": "08:00:02", "end_hms": "08:00:06", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "And Matt Henning, Tech:NYC. Please join this panel as well.", "text_unedited": "And Matt Henning, tech NYC. Please join this panel as well." }, { "turn_id": 695, "start_sec": 28830.205, "end_sec": 28837.93, "start_hms": "08:00:30", "end_hms": "08:00:37", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Matt, you can begin. Identify yourselves for the record just so we know who you are, and you can begin when you're ready. Yep.", "text_unedited": "Matt, you can begin. Identify yourselves for the record just so we know who you are, and you can begin when you're ready. Yep." }, { "turn_id": 696, "start_sec": 28838.17, "end_sec": 28984.646, "start_hms": "08:00:38", "end_hms": "08:03:04", "speaker_name": "Matt Henning", "speaker_role": "Witness — Tech:NYC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 62, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa, and members of the council. My name is Matt Henning, and I'm the director of government affairs at Tech:NYC. Thank you for the invitation to testify today. Tech:NYC's Frontier AI members already testified today, and we fully support their testimony and are proud to call them Tech:NYC members. Today, I want to use my time to speak for the rest of our membership, the startups and businesses that build products on top of frontier models rather than create them themselves. New York's tech ecosystem has never been stronger. According to a recent CBRE report, New York is now the largest tech talent market in North America, passing the Bay Area for the first time in the report's thirteen year history. That momentum isn't guaranteed, and the messaging that the city government sends matters. That's why I was happy to hear Speaker Menin's comments to that effect in her opening remarks and hope the final language of this packet... Package aligns with that intent. Our biggest concern is that this package holds non frontier companies liable for things out of their control. Most AI startups and many larger non frontier companies have a frontier model under the hood. The difference between a deployer and a developer is something I want to highlight when thinking about the various requirements and liabilities this package imposes. Under the third party validation bill, a startup can't deploy that model unless the developer had it validated and assessed, which these downstream companies can't commission or even verify. If the developer is found to not be in compliance, the startup's product becomes illegal overnight at $25,000 per instance. The AI misuse, chatbot, and advertising bills follow the same pattern and the civilian complaint bill multiplies the exposure. Finally, AI safety standards are most effective at the international, federal, or multistate level. A city by city patchwork with different rules in each city would be a compliance nightmare that many startups and small businesses could not survive, not only for New York City HQ startups, but for non New York City HQ startups that serve New Yorkers. As drafted, we are truly worried this would result in startups not choosing but being forced to leave New York City. We strongly urge the council to engage experts at both frontier and non frontier companies on moving forward with this package to ensure drastic negative unintended consequences are in... Tech:NYC stands out to the ready to help facilitate those conversations. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker Menon, chair De La Rosa, and members of the council. My name is Matt Henning, and I'm the director of government affairs at Tech NYC. Thank you for the invitation to testify today. Tech NYC's Frontier AI members already testified today, and we fully support their testimony and are proud to call them Tech NYC members. Today, I want to use my time to speak for the rest of our membership, the startups and businesses that build products on top of frontier models rather than create them themselves. New York's tech ecosystem has never been stronger. According to a recent CBRE report, New York is now the largest tech talent market in North America, passing the Bay Area for the first time in the report's thirteen year history. That momentum isn't guaranteed, and the messaging that the city government sends matters. That's why I was happy to hear speaker Menon's comments to that effect in her opening remarks and hope the final language of this packet... Package aligns with that intent. Our biggest concern is that this package holds non frontier companies liable for things out of their control. Most AI startups and many larger non frontier companies have a frontier model under the hood. The difference between a deployer and a developer is something I want to highlight when thinking about the various requirements and liabilities this package imposes. Under the third party validation bill, a startup can't deploy that model unless the developer had it validated and assessed, which these downstream companies can't commission or even verify. If the developer is found to not be in compliance, the startup's product becomes illegal overnight at $25,000 per instance. The AI misuse, chatbot, and advertising bills follow the same pattern and the civilian complaint bill multiplies the exposure. Finally, AI safety standards are most effective at the international, federal, or multistate level. A city by city patchwork with different rules in each city would be a compliance nightmare that many startups and small businesses could not survive, not only for New York City HQ startups, but for non New York City HQ startups that serve New Yorkers. As drafted, we are truly worried this would result in startups not choosing but being forced to leave New York City. We strongly urge the council to engage experts at both frontier and non frontier companies on moving forward with this package to ensure drastic negative unintended consequences are in... Tech NYC stands out to the ready to help facilitate those conversations. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 697, "start_sec": 28990.326, "end_sec": 29127.766, "start_hms": "08:03:10", "end_hms": "08:05:27", "speaker_name": "Andrew Rasiej", "speaker_role": "Witness — Civic Hall", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 8, "text_clean": "Thank you, Madam Speaker, Chair De La Rosa, and members of the city council. My name is Andrew Rachey. Nearly thirty years ago, I founded mouse.org to bring the Internet to New York City public schools. More recently, I founded Civic Hall at Union Square, the city's largest digital skills training center serving underestimated New Yorkers. New Yorkers are scared by the reports that some AI models evaded human control. I understand why. But most people can't tell you how a chatbot works, what it does with their data, or how a deepfake gets made. They know enough to be alarmed, but not enough to protect themselves. And that's the new digital divide. People who understand AI on one side and people it happens to on the other. I'm asking the council to act on two fronts. First, pass legislation requiring the city to launch a free AI literacy campaign for every New Yorker. Teach people how to protect their jobs. AI won't take your job. A person who knows how to use AI will. Teach families that when grandma gets a call from her grandson's voice asking for money, it may not be him. And helps small businesses because AI has made phishing and fraud cheaper and more convincing, and the corner store isn't ready. Finland built a free public course for more than 2 million people... Which more than 2 million people have taken, and it's reached a 170 countries. During COVID, the city reached every resident. We can do it again. Fear of AI is not a substitute for comprehension. Second, the only real way to stop bad AI is to build good AI. Right now, it's being built by a handful of companies answerable to answerable to their shareholders. The organizations responsible for the public good are nonprofits, community groups, and city agencies are years behind. Most can't afford the computing power, and their staff haven't been trained to use these tools. When the big AI companies offer nonprofits free computing power, it comes on their terms with the organization's data sitting on their servers. Public good AI needs sovereign computing power separate from the companies whose business depends on gathering data. I helped start the foundation for Civic I, which offers a supercomputer to the public interest at no cost. Few of them have the staff who know how to use it, so investing in public AI infrastructure is a mission that this council should take up. Thank you very much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, madam speaker, chair Dela Rosa, and members of the city council. My name is Andrew Rachey. Nearly thirty years ago, I founded mouse.org to bring the Internet to New York City public schools. More recently, I founded Civic Hall at Union Square, the city's largest digital skills training center serving underestimated New Yorkers. New Yorkers are scared by the reports that some AI models evaded human control. I understand why. But most people can't tell you how a chatbot works, what it does with their data, or how a deepfake gets made. They know enough to be alarmed, but not enough to protect themselves. And that's the new digital divide. People who understand AI on one side and people it happens to on the other. I'm asking the council to act on two fronts. First, pass legislation requiring the city to launch a free AI literacy campaign for every New Yorker. Teach people how to protect their jobs. AI won't take your job. A person who knows how to use AI will. Teach families that when grandma gets a call from her grandson's voice asking for money, it may not be him. And helps small businesses because AI has made phishing and fraud cheaper and more convincing, and the corner store isn't ready. Finland built a free public course for more than 2,000,000 people... Which more than 2,000,000 people have taken, and and and it's reached a 170 countries. During COVID, the city reached every resident. We can do it again. Fear of AI is not a substitute for comprehension. Second, the only real way to stop bad AI is to build good AI. Right now, it's being built by a handful of companies answerable to answerable to their shareholders. The organizations responsible for the public good are nonprofits, community groups, and city agencies are years behind. Most can't afford the computing power, and their staff haven't been trained to use these tools. When the big AI companies offer nonprofits free computing power, it comes on their terms with the organization's data sitting on their servers. Public good AI needs sovereign computing power separate from the companies whose business depends on gathering data. I helped start the foundation for Civic I, which offers a supercomputer to the public interest at no cost. Few of them have the staff who know how to use it, so investing in public AI infrastructure is a mission that this council should take up. Thank you very much." }, { "turn_id": 698, "start_sec": 29128.324, "end_sec": 29130.805, "start_hms": "08:05:28", "end_hms": "08:05:30", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Go ahead.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Go ahead." }, { "turn_id": 699, "start_sec": 29133.07, "end_sec": 29135.47, "start_hms": "08:05:33", "end_hms": "08:05:35", "speaker_name": "Neil Getnick", "speaker_role": "Witness — Getnick & Getnick", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 12, "text_clean": "Good evening. I'm Neil. Oh, there you go.", "text_unedited": "Good evening. I'm Neil. Oh, there you go." }, { "turn_id": 700, "start_sec": 29136.59, "end_sec": 29282.291, "start_hms": "08:05:36", "end_hms": "08:08:02", "speaker_name": "Neil Getnick", "speaker_role": "Witness — Getnick & Getnick", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 63, "text_clean": "Good evening. I'm Neil Getnick, the managing partner of Manhattan based Getnick Law. Our whistleblower cases have recovered over $1.5 billion for federal, state, and local governments, including over a $100 million for New York State and New York City. Intro 2605 provides for rewards resulting from recoveries arising from whistleblower complaints alleging that a person or entity has violated legal provisions related to artificial intelligence. Speaking from my area of whistleblower expertise, I will highlight six key elements relevant to these legislative proposals. First, threshold, setting a threshold qualifying amount for a reward. Second, floor and ceiling, typically the range of rewards, is set between 15 to 30%. Third, no caps. Beyond the percentage limits, there should be no cap on the size of the award maximizing incentivization. Fourth, public private partnership. The government agency and the whistleblower and council should work together to maximize the recovery. Fifth, emphasizing anonymity. The government should do all that it can to prove... Preserve the whistleblower's anonymity. Sixth, perhaps most importantly for this council, clarity. In passing artificial intelligence laws, you will be taking on powerful and well resourced individuals and entities who will push back. So ask yourself, are these laws clear? And then do what's necessary to accomplish that at the drafting stage rather than leaving it to the courts. In conclusion, the legislative proposals before you are an opportunity for the city of New York to lead the way in safeguarding citizens from the potential risks of artificial intelligence. And in doing so, this council will light the way for the nation as a whole.", "text_unedited": "Good evening. I'm Neil Gettnick, the managing partner of Manhattan based Gettnick Law. Our whistleblower cases have recovered over $1,500,000,000 for federal, state, and local governments, including over a $100,000,000 for New York State and New York City. Intro number two six zero five provides for rewards resulting from recoveries arising from whistleblower complaints alleging that a person or entity has violated legal provisions related to artificial intelligence. Speaking from my area of whistleblower expertise, I will highlight six key elements relevant to these legislative proposals. First, threshold, setting a threshold qualifying amount for a reward. Second, floor and ceiling, typically the range of rewards, is set between 15 to 30%. Third, no caps. Beyond the percentage limits, there should be no cap on the size of the award maximizing incentivization. Fourth, public private partnership. The government agency and the whistleblower and council should work together to maximize the recovery. Fifth, emphasizing anonymity. The government should do all that it can to prove... Preserve the whistleblower's anonymity. Sixth, perhaps most importantly for this council, clarity. In passing artificial intelligence laws, you will be taking on powerful and well resourced individuals and entities who will push back. So ask yourself, are these laws clear? And then do what's necessary to accomplish that at the drafting stage rather than leaving it to the courts. In conclusion, the legislative proposals before you are an opportunity for the city of New York to lead the way in safeguarding citizens from the potential risks of artificial intelligence. And in doing so, this council will light the way for the nation as a whole." }, { "turn_id": 701, "start_sec": 29283.33, "end_sec": 29284.13, "start_hms": "08:08:03", "end_hms": "08:08:04", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 702, "start_sec": 29285.81, "end_sec": 29399.97, "start_hms": "08:08:05", "end_hms": "08:09:59", "speaker_name": "Gabriel Weil", "speaker_role": "Witness — University of Houston / Institute for Law & AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 14, "text_clean": "Thank you, Speaker Menin and Chair De La Rosa. I'm Gabriel Weil. I'm a professor at the University of Houston and a fellow at the Institute for Law and AI. And I want to talk to you about, what I see is the largest gap in the existing liability law, that is not addressed by your, legislative package, which is that AI agents could engage in conduct that would be a tort or even a crime for a human, and yet no one could be liable under current law. And that is a consequence of two relevant features of our legal system. One is that AI agents are not legal persons. They do not have tort duties, and that means not only that they can't be held liable, but that their principles cannot be held vicariously liable in the way that employer is held liable for the torts of their employees within the scope of employment. And second, the regimes that do apply, to these harms, negligence and products liability have important gaps. They are inadequate to motivate some of the key precautionary measures that would prevent these kinds of incidents. And so I... What I propose is a is a simple fix, principle that whenever an AI agent, engages in conduct that would be a tort or a crime, for a human, someone's liable for that. And so, if neither the user nor any intermediary that fine tuned or scaffolded the model either intended or was negligent with respect to the conducts or no downstream actor was at fault, then the buck should stop with the developer, and they should be liable regardless of the degree of care they exercised. I have worked on legislation to this effect. It's been introduced, in New York State and in Rhode Island, and I'm talking to several congressional offices. My written testimony, which will be submitted, probably tomorrow, includes proposed legislative text for New York, and I'm happy to answer any questions, about that or about any other, liability issues including the legislation that's in the package. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker Menon and and chair Dilrosa. I'm Gabriel Weil. I'm a professor at the University of Houston and a fellow at the Institute for Law and AI. And I wanna talk to you about, what I see is the the largest gap in the existing liability law, that is not addressed by your, legislative package, which is that AI agents could engage in conduct that would be a tort or even a crime for a human, and yet no one could be liable under current law. And that is a consequence of two relevant features of our legal system. One is that AI agents are not legal persons. They do not have tort duties, and that means not only that they can't be held liable, but that their principles cannot be held vicariously liable in the way that employer is held liable for the torts of their employees within the scope of employment. And second, the regimes that do apply, to these harms, negligence and products liability have important gaps. They are inadequate to motivate some of the key precautionary measures that would prevent these kinds of incidents. And so I... What I propose is a is a simple fix, principle that whenever an AI agent, engages in conduct that would be a tort or a crime, for a human, someone's liable for that. And so, if neither the user nor any intermediary that fine tuned or scaffolded the model either intended or was negligent with respect to the conducts or no downstream actor was at fault, then the buck should stop with the developer, and they should be liable regardless of the degree of care they exercised. I have worked on legislation to this effect. It's been introduced, in New York State and in Rhode Island, and I'm talking to several congressional offices. My written testimony, which will be submitted, probably tomorrow, includes proposed legislative text for New York, and I'm happy to answer any questions, about that or about any other, liability issues including the legislation that's that's in the the package. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 703, "start_sec": 29400.77, "end_sec": 29402.45, "start_hms": "08:10:00", "end_hms": "08:10:02", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Noah?", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Noah?" }, { "turn_id": 704, "start_sec": 29408.846, "end_sec": 29557.115, "start_hms": "08:10:08", "end_hms": "08:12:37", "speaker_name": "Noel Hidalgo", "speaker_role": "Witness — BetaNYC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 64, "text_clean": "Hi. My name is Noel Hidalgo. I'm the executive director of BetaNYC. And for the record, I serve as the public advocate's appointee to COPIC and to the Internet advisory board. And today, I speak on behalf of BetaNYC. At BetaNYC, AI is a question of power. Who has the power to consume the world's knowledge and resources and who controls the companies that do? Our research shows four things. First, AI models are snapshots in time. We asked five AI agents about the council's own AI law, local law one eighty eight. Of the three that answered from memory, none of them knew it. Two ignored the instructions and searched the web to find the answer. Out of the box, AI models are brains with no eyes and no hands. Second, access to the city's information is inconsistent. Nyc.gov, nyc.gov's one published rule welcomes every automated visitor. Yet when you disclose that you are who you are, it is refused. So we had to build open source tools that go straight to the source and hop around the city's regulation... Digital regulation. Third, people inside a city government are ready to experiment. Our own conversations say that they are ready to do it safely and reliably, and they have told us that they lack the literacy and the resources. And you actually heard the deputy commissioner say that they can't find somebody inside of New York City government who actually has the tools and the resources to become the leader that they are looking for, which is really disappointing. Fourth, we have trained nearly a 100 CUNY undergraduates, and we interviewed 26 experts across 18 organizations. Employers want more than technical skills. They want... And students want practical experience. A century ago, reformers in this chamber helped bring us clean water and an end to nepotism in government. A hundred years from now, how will our descendants look back at today? So we asked the council to work with the state on a few fun pieces of legislation. One would be an AI wealth fund for public universities and public education and to fund enforcement. We desperately need to revive COPIC, define New York City's vision of digital sovereignty starting with the UN open source principles, fund the Office of Algorithmic Accountability and the Office of Data Strategy, and create an open source programs office in partnership with CUNY. Our full testimony is up on our website at beta.nyc/council-ai-hearings/-2020six. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Hi. My name is Noel Idelgo. I'm the executive director of Beta NYC. And for the record, I serve as the public advocate's appointee to COPIC and to the Internet advisory board. And today, I speak on behalf of Beta NYC. At Beta NYC, AI is a question of power. Who has the power to consume the world's knowledge and resources and who controls the companies that do? Our research shows four things. First, AI models are snapshots in time. We asked five AI agents about the council's own AI law, local law one eighty eight. Of the three that answered from memory, none of them knew it. Two ignored the instructions and searched the web to find the answer. Out of the box, AI models are brains with no eyes and no hands. Second, access to the city's information is inconsistent. Nyc.gov, nyc.gov's one published rule welcomes every automated visitor. Yet when you disclose that you are who you are, it is refused. So we had to build open source tools that go straight to the source and hop around the city's regulation... Digital regulation. Third, people inside a city government are ready to experiment. Our own conversations say that they are ready to do it safely and reliably, and they have told us that they lack the literacy and the resources. And you actually heard the deputy commissioner say that that they can't find somebody inside of New York City government who actually has the tools and the resources to become the leader that they are looking for, which is really disappointing. Fourth, we have trained nearly a 100 CUNY undergraduates, and we interviewed 26 experts across 18 organizations. Employers want more than technical skills. They want... And students want practical experience. A century ago, reformers in this chamber helped bring us clean water and an end to nepotism in government. A hundred years from now, how will our descendants look back at today? So we asked the council to work with the state on a few fun pieces of legislation. One would be an AI wealth fund for public universities and public education and to fund enforcement. We desperately need to revive COPIC, define New York City's vision of digital sovereignty starting with the UN open source principles, fund the office of algorithmic accountability and the office of data strategy, and create an open source programs office in partnership with CUNY. Our full testimony is up on our website at beta.nyc/council-ai-hearings/-2020six. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 705, "start_sec": 29557.834, "end_sec": 29558.395, "start_hms": "08:12:37", "end_hms": "08:12:38", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 706, "start_sec": 29560.041, "end_sec": 29704.7, "start_hms": "08:12:40", "end_hms": "08:15:04", "speaker_name": "David S. Rose", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 65, "text_clean": "Speaker, chair, members of the council, my name is David S. Rose, and I think my background is important to understand for why I'm here. I founded my first technology company in New York City in 1981, more than forty five years ago, and I was a founding member of the New York New Media Association in 1994. Following the dot com crash, I founded New York Angels, today one of the world's leading business angel networks with over a 150 members that has funded over $180 million into more than 400 start ups, creating thousands of jobs here in New York. I then founded the start up platform Gust, which was tapped by first mayor Bloomberg and then mayor de Blasio to create digital.nyc, New York City's official online hub for the city's entrepreneurship ecosystem. Most recently, I'm the founder and CEO of the US real estate market, a lappointed an AI based liquidity platform for commercial real estate. Red Herring magazine has described me as patriarch of Silicon Alley and Forbes as New York's archangel. At the same time, I have spent twenty years working on the future of technology and artificial intelligence as associate founder of Singularity University with Ray Kurzweil and Peter Diamandis. And today, I serve as chairman of two applied AI companies. My testimony today is going to be brief, and it's about three fundamental facts that are the key takeaways I think we all need to have. Number one, artificial intelligence is today baked into the core of every single company starting up in New York City. No investor today will invest in any company that does not explicitly show how they are using it as an essential foundation of their business. Number two, AI absolutely needs to be regulated because the power it has already unlocked, not to mention what is coming in the immediate future, is literally the biggest development in the history of our planet since the emergence of humans. But really critical for the hearing today is number three. The most important thing for you to consider in your deliberations is that regulation absolutely needs to be done either at the federal level or at a coordinated state level as New York state has done with California in passing the RAISE Act. The challenge with imposing additional requirements at the city level, especially such as those considered in the bill here, will have the effect of literally destroying New York City's role as a tech leader.", "text_unedited": "Speaker, chair, members of the council, my name is David s Rose, and I think my background is important to understand for why I'm here. I founded my first technology company in New York City in 1981, more than forty five years ago, and I was a founding member of the New York New Media Association in 1994. Following the dot com crash, I founded New York Angels, today one of the world's leading business angel networks with over a 150 members that has funded over 180,000,000 into more than 400 start ups, creating thousands of jobs here in New York. I then founded the start up platform Gust, which was tapped by first mayor Bloomberg and then mayor de Blasio to create digital.nyc, New York City's official online hub for the city's entrepreneurship ecosystem. Most recently, I'm the founder and CEO of the US real estate market, a lappointed an AI based liquidity platform for commercial real estate. Red Herring magazine has described me as patriarch of Silicon Alley and Forbes as New York's archangel. At the same time, I have spent twenty years working on the future of technology and artificial intelligence as associate founder of Singularity University with Ray Kurzweil and Peter Diamantis. And today, I serve as chairman of two applied AI companies. My testimony today is gonna be brief, and it's about three fundamental facts that are the key takeaways I think we all need to have. Number one, artificial intelligence is today baked into the core of every single company starting up in New York City. No investor today will invest in any company that does not explicitly show how they are using it as an essential foundation of their business. Number two, AI absolutely needs to be regulated because the power it has already unlocked, not to mention what is coming in the immediate future, is literally the biggest development in the history of our planet since the emergence of humans. But really critical for the hearing today is number three. The most important thing for you to consider in your deliberations is that regulation absolutely needs to be done either at the federal level or at a coordinated state level as New York state has done with California in passing the RAISE Act. The challenge with imposing additional requirements at the city level, especially such as those considered in the bill here, will have the effect of literally destroying New York City's role as a tech leader." }, { "turn_id": 707, "start_sec": 29704.94, "end_sec": 29714.016, "start_hms": "08:15:04", "end_hms": "08:15:14", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "No company could afford to offer conclude and submit the full testimony. We have about seven more panels to go, so we appreciate your time. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "No company could afford to offer conclude and submit the full testimony. We have about seven more panels to go, so we appreciate your time. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 708, "start_sec": 29714.496, "end_sec": 29781.871, "start_hms": "08:15:14", "end_hms": "08:16:21", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Thank you. Speaker Menin? Okay. Thank you. Just a couple quick comments slash questions for Tech:NYC. Thank you for your, comments. We appreciate that. And as I said at the beginning of the hearing, we very much want to ensure that New York City stays the tech capital of the world. We want to promote innovation. We want these tech companies to locate here. We want startups to locate here. And so I understand your comment, and this is why we have been very focused on hearing from the frontier companies as we did today, which I think was really important. So, no... Noel? Is it Noel? Okay. Thank you. You mentioned the Office of Algorithmic Accountability. As you might have heard earlier when we had the city administration here in OTI, I've been concerned that office is not up and running yet. Thoughts on what needs to be done there and how we can quickly make sure that office is doing the critical work we need it to do.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Speaker Mena? Okay. Thank you. Just a couple quick comments slash questions for Tech NYC. Thank you for your, comments. We appreciate that. And as I said at the beginning of the hearing, we very much want to ensure that New York City stays the tech capital of the world. We wanna promote innovation. We want these tech companies to locate here. We want startups to locate here. And so I I I understand your comment, and this is why we have been very focused on hearing from the frontier companies as we did today, which I think was really important. So, no... Noel? Is it Noel? Okay. Thank you. You mentioned the office of algorithmic accountability. You know, as you might have heard earlier when we had the city administration here in OTI, you know, I've been concerned that that office is not up and running yet. Thoughts on what needs to be done there and how we can quickly make sure that that office office is doing the critical work we need it to do." }, { "turn_id": 709, "start_sec": 29782.99, "end_sec": 29876.18, "start_hms": "08:16:22", "end_hms": "08:17:56", "speaker_name": "Noel Hidalgo", "speaker_role": "Witness — BetaNYC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 64, "text_clean": "Thank you for that question. And thank you for those point... Questions at OTI. Inside... So in the wonderful chaos that is OTI, there is the Office of Data Strategy that help maintains the city's open data portal and have been helping maintain the data standards. They're the team that right now that hold the keys to the city's GitHub Copilot, capability. So every single developer or technical person in the city that wants to use an authorized and approved AI system already has a team that's been trained and that's willing to go and work and more or less do the missionary work across the city to ensure that the city's developers and the technical teams have the skills and the capability to use AI safely so that way they can start Yeah. Growing their capability. When it comes down to, so they have that framework in place. The Office of Algorithmic Accountability is supposed to be kind of that grander scaled up version. The problem that we have is that this is about booting up a brand new office and a brand new administration when priorities have been changing. And so the frustration that I continue to have and that I've heard from inside is the fact that OMB is holding back the ability for OTI to make those hires and then to actually start that office. But there's still going to be time. You've worked in government. You know that it takes at least six months to get those people kind of doing all those first introductory conversations.", "text_unedited": "Thank you for that question. And thank you for those point... Questions at OTI. Inside... So in the wonderful chaos that is OTI, there is the office of data strategy that help maintains the city's open data portal and have been helping maintain the data standards. They're the team that right now that hold the keys to the city's GitHub copilot, capability. So every single developer or technical person in the city that wants to use an authorized and approved AI system already has a team that's been trained and that's willing to go and work and more or less do the missionary work across the city to ensure that the city's developers and the technical teams have the the skills and the capability to use AI safely so that way they can start Yeah. Growing their capability. When it comes down to, so so they have that framework in place. The Office of Algorithmic Accountability is supposed to be kind of that grander scaled up version. The problem that we have is that this is about booting up a brand new office and a brand new administration when priorities have have been been changing. Changing. And so the frustration that I continue to have and that I've heard from inside is the fact that OMB is holding back the ability for OTI to make those hires and then to actually start that office. But there's still gonna be time. You've worked in government. You know that it takes at least six months to get those people kind of doing all those first introductory conversations." }, { "turn_id": 710, "start_sec": 29876.5, "end_sec": 29901.121, "start_hms": "08:17:56", "end_hms": "08:18:21", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "We can skip that. There's already a team in place that knows how to do that. Great. Thank you. And then lastly, sir, you mentioned about the tort law, which I thought was very interesting. So on the question of your idea of expanding the tort law, I did want to say Council Member Maloney has a bill that would create a private right of action. So we do have that bill as part of this legislative package. Yes. Not amending the tort law, but creating that private right of action.", "text_unedited": "We can skip that. There's already a team in place that knows how to do that. Great. Thank you. And then lastly, sir, you mentioned about the tort law, which I thought was very interesting. So on the question of your idea of expanding the tort law, I did wanna say council member Maloney has a bill that would create a private right of action. So we do have that bill as part of this legislative package. Yes. Not amending the tort law, but creating that private right of action." }, { "turn_id": 711, "start_sec": 29902.08, "end_sec": 29910.684, "start_hms": "08:18:22", "end_hms": "08:18:30", "speaker_name": "Neil Getnick", "speaker_role": "Witness — Getnick & Getnick", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 63, "text_clean": "So a little different, but I appreciated your comments. So... Before we adjourn, may I say a brief word about the validator question you raised earlier?", "text_unedited": "So a little different, but I appreciated your comments. So... Before we adjourn, may I say a brief word about the validator question you raised earlier?" }, { "turn_id": 712, "start_sec": 29911.324, "end_sec": 29917.645, "start_hms": "08:18:31", "end_hms": "08:18:37", "speaker_name": "Julie Menin", "speaker_role": "Speaker", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "Sure. And then I think we're going to have to move on because I know we have several be very quick. You already have your mechanism.", "text_unedited": "Sure. And then I think we're gonna have to move on because I know we have several be very quick. You already have your mechanism." }, { "turn_id": 713, "start_sec": 29918.125, "end_sec": 29957.629, "start_hms": "08:18:38", "end_hms": "08:19:17", "speaker_name": "Neil Getnick", "speaker_role": "Witness — Getnick & Getnick", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 63, "text_clean": "It's the independent private sector inspector general model that this council used Mhmm. To basically eradicate organized crime infiltration of many industries, including the trade waste industry. It has been recognized by the National Law Journal Mhmm. As the methodology involving multidisciplinary independent monitors Okay. Which is immediately adaptable. I'd be happy to confer with your office Thank you. And provide that information. Thank you very much. We greatly appreciate this whole panel. Thank you. Thank you. Council Member Hanif, you had a question? I had a question for Noel.", "text_unedited": "It's the independent private sector inspector general model that this council used Mhmm. To basically eradicate organized crime infiltration of many industries, including the trade waste industry. It has been recognized by the National Law Journal Mhmm. As the methodology involving multidisciplinary independent monitors Okay. Which is immediately adaptable. I'd be happy to confer confer with your office Thank you. And provide that information. Thank you very much. We greatly appreciate appreciate this whole panel. Thank you. Thank you. Councilmember Hanif, you had a question? I had a question for Noel." }, { "turn_id": 714, "start_sec": 29957.95, "end_sec": 29968.744, "start_hms": "08:19:17", "end_hms": "08:19:28", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "Could you just speak a little bit more about what a fully functioning COPIC could do today that other city agents, no other city entity is currently doing?", "text_unedited": "Could you just speak a little bit more about what a fully functioning COPIC could do today that other city agents, no other city entity is currently doing?" }, { "turn_id": 715, "start_sec": 29970.264, "end_sec": 30056.275, "start_hms": "08:19:30", "end_hms": "08:20:56", "speaker_name": "Noel Hidalgo", "speaker_role": "Witness — BetaNYC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 64, "text_clean": "Yeah. So thank you for asking that question. Since its inception, COPIC, as the commission of public information and communications, has the unique power that brings council, the executive, public advocate, as well as public designee... Designees to oversee, communications, terrestrial TV, radio, and the web. KOPIC's first responsibility was to create the very first data dictionary that the city has ever seen. We now have the city's open data law. COPIK has the unique capability existing in the city charter to do the oversight of websites and to help define how the public uses those websites, and that provides a very unique capability inside of the charter that isn't being exercised. And so what I would love to see is COPIK have a series of hearings explicitly focused on public information. AI is public information. It is how we... How these models have used public information to essentially turn around and distill public information. So revamp COPIC with resources to actually host hearings and to continue this existing conversation can help bring that power. And COPIC's advice, when it writes a report, then comes to counsel and essentially to introduce new pieces of legislation, which you then, as the speaker, have other pieces of power to execute. I'll leave that to the lawyers.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. So thank you for asking that question. Since its inception, COPIC, as the commission of public information and communications, has the unique power that brings council, the executive, public advocate, as well as public designee... Designees to oversee, communications, terrestrial TV, radio, and the web. KOPIC's first responsibility was to create the very first data dictionary that the city has ever seen. We now have the city's open data law. COPIK has the unique capability existing in the city charter to do the oversight of websites and to help define how the public uses those websites, and that provides a very unique capability inside of the charter that isn't being exercised. And so what I would love to see is COPIK have a series of hearings explicitly focused on public information. AI is public information. It is how we... How these models have used public information to essentially turn around and distill public information. So revamp COPIC with resources to actually host hearings and to continue this existing conversation can help bring that power. And COPIC's advice, when it writes a report, then comes to counsel and essentially to introduce new pieces of legislation, which you then, as the speaker, have other pieces of power to execute. I'll leave that to the lawyers." }, { "turn_id": 716, "start_sec": 30057.635, "end_sec": 30083.516, "start_hms": "08:20:57", "end_hms": "08:21:23", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all so much, and thank you to this panel. We really appreciate your testimony and look forward to reading the full, extent of your testimony. The next panel is a hybrid panel. You had a question? Oh, okay. The next panel is a hybrid panel. We have Scott Wizzer and Zach Praes in person. And then on Zoom, we have Shay Brown, Gary Marcus, and David Krueger.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all so much, and thank you to this panel. We really appreciate your testimony and look forward to reading the full, extent of your testimony. The next panel is a hybrid panel. You had a question? Oh, okay. The next panel is a hybrid panel. We have Scott Wizzer and Zach Praes in person. And then on Zoom, we have Shay Brown, Gary Marcus, and David Krueger." }, { "turn_id": 717, "start_sec": 30102.69, "end_sec": 30107.33, "start_hms": "08:21:42", "end_hms": "08:21:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "We're going to begin with the in person panel. So if you could just identify yourself and begin whenever you're ready.", "text_unedited": "We're gonna begin with the in person panel. So if you could just identify yourself and begin whenever you're ready." }, { "turn_id": 718, "start_sec": 30116.465, "end_sec": 30247.08, "start_hms": "08:21:56", "end_hms": "08:24:07", "speaker_name": "Zach Price", "speaker_role": "Witness — Reset Tech", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 68, "text_clean": "Madam Speaker, council members, my name is Zach Price. I work with Reset Tech, a nonprofit advocating for technology that protects children, consumers, and public safety. Thank you for convening this hearing. While president Trump advocates for self regulation and congress stalls, the New York City Council is questioning AI companies on the harms of their technologies and leading on legislation to hold them to account. I'll focus on the harms New Yorkers face today from AI. AI powered scams are surging. Experts estimate New Yorkers lost $8.7 billion to online scams in 2025. That's about 1,000 per household. Meta's internal documents projected about $16 billion in revenue from ads for scams and banned goods in 2025... 2024, that's 10% of the company's global revenue. 72% of teens have used an AI companion. Families alleged these products have contributed to teen suicides. Meta allowed romantic role play chatbots for minors despite warnings from its own internal staff. AI is increasing cost for New Yorkers. A recent analysis found that AI tools increased health care cost for insurers by $1 billion over two years. AI is generating harmful digital forgeries. Researchers found that xAI's Grok produced an estimated 3 million sexualized images, including 23,000 of children in an eleven day period. These harms result from business and design decisions. When AI developers create harm, they should bear the responsibility. Holding AI companies accountable for these harms will not only yield safer products today, but also create the internal incentive structures at these companies to prevent harm in the future. The council can act to pass legislation today to ensure and strengthen liability for AI developers and privacy protections for AI users, prohibit AI from generating harmful digital forgeries, require third party validation and incident reporting for AI companies, support and expand whistleblower protections. Thank you for your leadership on this matter. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Madam speaker, council members, my name is Zach Price. I work with Reset Tech, a nonprofit advocating for technology that protects children, consumers, and public safety. Thank you for convening this hearing. While president Trump advocates for self regulation and congress stalls, the New York City Council is questioning AI companies on the harms of their technologies and leading on legislation to hold them to account. I'll focus on the harms New Yorkers face today from AI. AI powered scams are surging. Experts estimate New Yorkers lost $8,700,000,000 to online scams in 2025. That's about 1,000 per household. Meta's internal documents projected about 16,000,000,000 in revenue from ads for scams and banned goods in 2025... 2024, that's 10% of the company's global revenue. 72% of teens have used an AI companion. Families alleged these products have contributed to teen suicides. Meta allowed romantic role play chatbots for minors despite warnings from its own internal staff. AI is increasing cost for New Yorkers. A recent analysis found that AI tools increased health care cost for insurers by $1,000,000,000 over two years. AI is generating harmful digital forgeries. Researchers found that x AI's Grock produced an estimated 3,000,000 sexualized images, including 23,000 of children in an eleven day period. These harms result from business and design decisions. When AI developers create harm, they should bear the responsibility. Holding AI companies accountable for these harms will not only yield safer products today, but also create the internal incentive structures at these companies to prevent harm in the future. The council can act to pass legislation today to ensure and strengthen liability for AI developers and privacy protections for AI users, prohibit AI from generating harmful digital forgeries, require third party validation and incident reporting for AI companies, support and expand whistleblower protections. Thank you for your leadership on this matter. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 719, "start_sec": 30250.195, "end_sec": 30372.424, "start_hms": "08:24:10", "end_hms": "08:26:12", "speaker_name": "Scott Weiser", "speaker_role": "Witness — Secure AI Project", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 69, "text_clean": "Speaker chair, thank you for having us. My name is Scott Weiser, policy director from the Secure AI Project. We're nonprofit, nonpartisan. Don't take corporate or government funding. And we supported, state AI safety legislation over the last couple of years. We supported the RAISE Act in New York, SB 53 in California, s b three fifteen in Illinois, and pending AI safety legislation that's likely to pass conference committee in Massachusetts at the moment. I was really pleased to hear elected officials earlier call out what the companies had said. I don't know if it's possible to follow-up, but I think a very good thing for your committee to do would be to ask what specific legislation do you and did you support and at what time. It's really easy to support the legislation after it's become legally binding. The other thing that I heard the company say a lot is that they... Oh, yes. We very much like independent evaluation. We sign up for that. There's a mechanism which they can use today to make things legally binding. The compliance framework that they submit that's required under s p 53 and the raise act on January 1, if they put their commitments in that framework, then it's legally obligatory that they follow it. So I think that would be a very good question to ask after this hearing. As far as what we think good public policy means going forward to address the very severe risks from both advanced cyber attacks, the possibility of bioweapons, we think we need much greater transparency into what's happening at the companies. That means continuous oversight by embedded third party evaluators, continued whistleblower protections, and we need the power for the government upon getting information either through whistleblowers, independent evaluators, the company itself to be able to halt dangerous activities. So we've been supporting, those steps in other states and will continue to be a resource for, the council as you're going forward. We think that it's an extraordinarily important time for doing this, that the risks that we talked about six months ago are now here, and we think that the risks six months from now are much greater as the first panel today talked about recursive self improvement. That's a very dangerous position to be in, and we're grateful for your leadership on this.", "text_unedited": "Speaker chair, thank you for having us. My name is Scott Weiser, policy director from the Secure AI Project. We're nonprofit, nonpartisan. Don't take corporate or government funding. And we supported, state AI safety legislation over the last couple of years. We supported the RAISE Act in New York, s b 53 in California, s b three fifteen in Illinois, and pending AI safety legislation that's likely to pass conference committee in Massachusetts at the moment. I was really pleased to hear elected officials earlier call out what the companies had said. I don't know if it's possible to follow-up, but I think a very good thing for your committee to do would be to ask what specific legislation do you and did you support and at what time. It's really easy to support the legislation after it's become legally binding. The other thing that I heard the company say a lot is that they... Oh, yes. We very much like independent evaluation. We sign up for that. There's a mechanism which they can use today to make things legally binding. The compliance framework that they submit that's required under s p 53 and the raise act on January 1, if they put their commitments in that framework, then it's legally obligatory that they follow it. So I think that would be a very good question to ask after this hearing. As far as what we think good public policy means going forward to address the very severe risks from both advanced cyber attacks, the possibility of bioweapons, we think we need much greater transparency into what's happening at the companies. That means continuous oversight by embedded third party evaluators, continued whistleblower protections, and we need the power for the government upon getting information either through whistleblowers, independent evaluators, the company itself to be able to halt dangerous activities. So we've been supporting, those steps in other states and will continue to be a resource for, the council as you're going forward. We think that it's an extraordinarily important time for doing this, that the risks that we talked about six months ago are now here, and we think that the risks six months from now are much greater as the first panel today talked about recursive self improvement. That's a very dangerous position to be in, and we're grateful for your leadership on this." }, { "turn_id": 720, "start_sec": 30373.74, "end_sec": 30385.02, "start_hms": "08:26:13", "end_hms": "08:26:25", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. We're on Zoom. We're going to hear from Shay Brown. Shay, if you're on and ready, please unmute yourself.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. We're on Zoom. We're going to hear from Shay Brown. Shay, if you're on and ready, please unmute yourself." }, { "turn_id": 721, "start_sec": 30389.395, "end_sec": 30390.195, "start_hms": "08:26:29", "end_hms": "08:26:30", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 59, "text_clean": "Shay?", "text_unedited": "Shay?" }, { "turn_id": 722, "start_sec": 30392.914, "end_sec": 30396.035, "start_hms": "08:26:32", "end_hms": "08:26:36", "speaker_name": "Shay Brown", "speaker_role": "Witness — Babble AI", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 70, "text_clean": "Can you hear me now? Yes. We can hear you.", "text_unedited": "Can you hear me now? Yes. We can hear you." }, { "turn_id": 723, "start_sec": 30396.914, "end_sec": 30512.105, "start_hms": "08:26:36", "end_hms": "08:28:32", "speaker_name": "Shay Brown", "speaker_role": "Witness — Babble AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 52, "text_clean": "Thank you, Speaker Menin and members of the committee for this opportunity to speak. My name is Shay Brown. I'm the CEO of Babble AI, a company that audits high risk AI systems for safety and effective governance. And we've been independent bias auditors under Local Law 144 since that law first took effect. I'd like to speak today in support of proposal two six zero two, an AI system that affects the public should be examined by a qualified party, outside the company that built it before it reaches the public. I further think that New York City is the right place for this to start, and we'd like to see it done in a way that is effective and promotes the public's well-being. I'd like to raise two points, and I offer more in my written testimony. First, the bill asked the outside validator to certify that a model is appropriately positioned for deployment. From our experience, we believe this is more than an outside party can reasonably say given the third party dynamics and access to the system in question. Instead, we suggest potentially requiring the developer to make written assertions about its compliance over specific topics and to a minimum standard that is set by the city, and an independent practitioner validates those assertions through careful testing, verification, and inspection. This puts the burden of proof back on the developer and does not force the auditor to make a judgment call that it's not in the best position to make. My second point involves the validator's independence and competence. The only requirement for a validator in the current draft is that it not be an affiliate of the developer. We ask that qualification be more closely tied to existing standards and or accreditation for independent assurance and certification bodies that exist today. While the subject matter is unique and requires careful thought, the frameworks for professional conduct of third party audit assurance and validation professionals already exists, and we should leverage that. Thank you for your time, and I'm happy to answer any questions.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker Menon and members of the committee for this opportunity to speak. My name is Shay Brown. I'm the CEO of Babble AI, a company that audits high risk AI systems for safety and effective governance. And we've been independent bias auditors under local law one four four since that law first took effect. I'd like to speak today in support of proposal two six zero two, an AI system that affects the public should be examined by a qualified party, outside the company that built it before it reaches the public. I further think that New York City is the right place for this to start, and we'd like to see it done in a way that is effective and promotes the public's well-being. I'd like to raise two points, and I offer more in my written testimony. First, the bill asked the outside validator to certify that a model is appropriately positioned for deployment. From our experience, we believe this is more than an outside party can reasonably say given the third party dynamics and access to the system in question. Instead, we suggest potentially requiring the developer to make written assertions about its compliance over specific topics and to a minimum standard that is set by the city, and an independent practitioner validates those assertions through careful testing, verification, and inspection. This puts the burden of proof back on the developer and does not force the auditor to make a judgment call that it's not in the best position to make. My second point involves the validator's independence and competence. The only requirement for a validator in the current draft is that it not be an affiliate of the developer. We ask that qualification be more closely tied to existing standards and or accreditation for independent assurance and certification bodies that exist today. While the subject matter is unique and requires careful thought, the frameworks for professional conduct of third party audit assurance and validation professionals already exists, and we should leverage that. Thank you for your time, and I'm happy to answer any questions." }, { "turn_id": 724, "start_sec": 30512.586, "end_sec": 30519.865, "start_hms": "08:28:32", "end_hms": "08:28:39", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Up next, we'll hear from Gary Marcus on Zoom. Gary, when you're ready, please unmute.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Up next, we'll hear from Gary Marcus on Zoom. Gary, when you're ready, please unmute." }, { "turn_id": 725, "start_sec": 30536.145, "end_sec": 30537.506, "start_hms": "08:28:56", "end_hms": "08:28:57", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "Gary, you may begin.", "text_unedited": "Gary, you may begin." }, { "turn_id": 726, "start_sec": 30542.785, "end_sec": 30550.512, "start_hms": "08:29:02", "end_hms": "08:29:10", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Alright. We're going to move on to David Krueger. David, if you're on the Zoom, please unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "Alright. We're gonna move on to David Krueger. David, if you're on the Zoom, please unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 727, "start_sec": 30555.07, "end_sec": 30555.71, "start_hms": "08:29:15", "end_hms": "08:29:15", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 70, "text_clean": "Hi.", "text_unedited": "Hi." }, { "turn_id": 728, "start_sec": 30555.951, "end_sec": 30680.105, "start_hms": "08:29:15", "end_hms": "08:31:20", "speaker_name": "David Krueger", "speaker_role": "Witness — University of Montreal / Mila", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 71, "text_clean": "Yep. Thanks so much for having this hearing, and thanks for inviting me. So my name is David Krueger. I'm a machine learning professor at the University of Montreal in Mila, and I was previously an intern on the DeepMind AI safety team and a founding research director at the UK AI Security Institute. It was great hearing all of your questioning of the representatives of the AI companies. I think there are a lot of really important questions that are being asked here about the ability to, actually provide meaningful assurances for these systems. So I think we're quite probably on the verge of a catastrophe at this moment, and we should not proceed building more powerful AI systems Even if there was only a 10% risk within the next ten years of losing control, there'd be more than enough reason to stop building these systems, but I believe the risk is significantly higher and sooner. I've been doing deep learning and AI safety for over a dozen years, and I've seen these concerns go from fringe to mainstream. So we're now at a watershed moment where society is finally facing up to this problem. As a result, I'm more optimistic than I've been since I started worrying about AI risk over fifteen years ago, but we still need more awareness and understanding of the situation we're in, how bad the situation is. And the discussion is currently not where it needs to be around this. So people really need to have an understanding of the scope, the depth, and the urgency of the problem. We are talking about things up to and including human extinction or unseen levels of unemployment concentration of power. We are talking about recursive self improvement that companies say they're beginning to do right now, which could, at virtually any moment, lead to the creation of AI systems much smarter than people, which we have no, plan for how to control, or knowledge of how to. And most importantly, these problems go deep. The science of AI is extremely immature. All of the technical approaches to understanding AI systems, controlling them, and telling if they're safe are not where they need to be. They're far from where they need to be despite over a decade of research that I and other, like many other researchers, have spent a long time on this. So we are having discussions about policy and including some more substantive policy. Sorry?", "text_unedited": "Yep. Thanks so much for having this hearing, and thanks for inviting me. So my name is David Krueger. I'm a machine learning professor at the University of Montreal in Mila, and I was previously an intern on the DeepMind AI safety team and a founding research director at the UK AI Security Institute. It was great hearing all of your questioning of the representatives of the AI companies. I think there are a lot of really important questions that are being asked here about the ability to, actually provide meaningful assurances for these systems. So I think we're quite probably on the verge of a catastrophe at this moment, and we should not proceed building more powerful AI systems Even if there was only a 10% risk within the next ten years of losing control, there'd be more than enough reason to stop building these systems, but I believe the risk is significantly higher and sooner. I've been doing deep learning and AI safety for over a dozen years, and I've seen these concerns go from fringe to mainstream. So we're now at a watershed moment where society is finally facing up to this problem. As a result, I'm more optimistic than I've been since I started worrying about AI risk over fifteen years ago, but we still need more awareness and understanding of the situation we're in, how bad the situation is. And the discussion is currently not where it needs to be around this. So people really need to have an understanding of the scope, the depth, and the urgency of the problem. We are talking about things up to and including human extinction or unseen levels of unemployment concentration of power. We are talking about recursive self improvement that companies say they're beginning to do right now, which could, at virtually any moment, lead to the creation of AI systems much smarter than people, which we have no, plan for how to control, or knowledge of how to. And most importantly, these problems go deep. The science of AI is extremely immature. All of the technical approaches to understanding AI systems, controlling them, and telling if they're safe are are not where they need to be. They're far from where they need to be despite over a decade of research that I and other, like many other researchers, have spent a long time on this. So, you know, we are having discussions about policy and including some more substantive policy. Sorry?" }, { "turn_id": 729, "start_sec": 30680.904, "end_sec": 30718.06, "start_hms": "08:31:20", "end_hms": "08:31:58", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Your time is up. Thank you so much for coming in virtually. And if you could just submit the rest of your testimony, we'd really appreciate it. And thank you to this panel for being on. We're going to call one more time Gary Marcus if Gary's on Zoom... On mute. Alright. We're going to move on to the next panel. Thank you all for being here. The next panel is Nicholas Arture, Mary Vaccaro, Dawn DeCosta, Manny Pastrich, Carrie Faye Ibar, Jimmy Pan, and Jessica Timo on Zoom.", "text_unedited": "Your time is up. Thank you so much for coming in virtually. And if you could just submit the rest of your testimony, we'd really appreciate it. And and thank you to this panel for being on. We're gonna call one more time Gary Marcus if Gary's on Zoom... On mute. Alright. We're gonna move on to the next panel. Thank you all for being here. The next panel is Nicholas Arture, Mary Vaccaro, Dawn DeCosta, Manny Pastrich, Carrie Faye Ibar, Jimmy Pan, and Jessica Timo on Zoom." }, { "turn_id": 730, "start_sec": 30741.33, "end_sec": 30746.852, "start_hms": "08:32:21", "end_hms": "08:32:26", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. Let's start with the in person panel now. If you could just identify yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Let's start with the in person panel now. If you could just identify yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 731, "start_sec": 30748.291, "end_sec": 30871.32, "start_hms": "08:32:28", "end_hms": "08:34:31", "speaker_name": "Carrie Fallhaber", "speaker_role": "Witness — Jobs First NYC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 25, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin, Chairperson De La Rosa, and members of the council. My name is Carrie Fallhaber. I'm the senior vice president at Jobs First NYC. Thank you for the invitation to testify today. Jobs First NYC works with more than 200 partners to strengthen workforce systems and expand economic opportunity. AI is reshaping jobs, skills, and how employers find and deploy talent in ways that are difficult to quantify. The impact of a trial and error approach to safety is a risk that AI companies should bear, not New York City's young adults. Our immediate concern is what happens when the first rung of the career ladder changes faster than our workforce system is unable to respond. That matters especially for the more than 110,000 young adults who are out of school and out of work and more than 177,000 who are underemployed, more than thirty five percent of all sixteen to twenty four year olds. As entry level work changes, they could face even greater barriers to getting their foothold in the workforce. Workforce preparedness is an AI safeguard. AI readiness should be part of New York City's workforce infrastructure from education and training through hiring and advancement. For more than a decade, JobSourceMIC has worked to understand how technology is changing access to work. Today, we are developing decision making tools to reduce AI risk, scale what works, and shrink the distance between education, training, and getting a job. We recommend that the city invest in sector based AI fluency paid pathways into work. AI is changing each sector differently. Employers, education, and workforce partners should define sector skills with city investment in internships, apprenticeships, and a civic core where young people build those skills through work. Every young person divert... Deserves a first chance at a good job. As AI changes work, New York City has to make sure that first chance is still there. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker Menon, chairperson de la Rosa, and members of the council. My name is Carrie Fallhaber. I'm the senior vice president at Jobs First NYC. Thank you for the invitation to testify today. Jobs First NYC works with more than 200 partners to strengthen workforce systems and expand economic opportunity. AI is reshaping jobs, skills, and how employers find and deploy talent in ways that are difficult to quantify. The impact of a trial and error approach to safety is a risk that AI companies should bear, not New York City's young adults. Our immediate concern is what happens when the first rung of the career ladder changes faster than our workforce system is unable to respond. That matters especially for the more than 110,000 young adults who are out of school and out of work and more than 177,000 who are underemployed, more than thirty five percent of all sixteen to twenty four year olds. As entry level work changes, they could face even greater barriers to getting their foothold in the workforce. Workforce preparedness is an AI safeguard. AI readiness should be part of New York City's workforce infrastructure from education and training through hiring and advancement. For more than a decade, JobSourceMIC has worked to understand how technology is changing access to work. Today, we are developing decision making tools to reduce AI risk, scale what works, and shrink the distance between education, training, and getting a job. We recommend that the city invest in sector based AI fluency paid pathways into work. AI is changing each sector differently. Employers, education, and workforce partners should define sector skills with city investment in internships, apprenticeships, and a civic core where young people build those skills through work. Every young person divert... Deserves a first chance at a good job. As AI changes work, New York City has to make sure that first chance is still there. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 732, "start_sec": 30872.04, "end_sec": 30872.92, "start_hms": "08:34:32", "end_hms": "08:34:32", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 733, "start_sec": 30877.865, "end_sec": 31008.84, "start_hms": "08:34:37", "end_hms": "08:36:48", "speaker_name": "Nicholas Artur", "speaker_role": "Witness — Consortium for Worker Education", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 72, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin, technology Chair De La Rosa, and members of the committee of the whole. My name is Nicholas Artur, and I serve as director of external affairs and strategic partnerships at consortium the for worker education, CWE. Rooted in the values of the labor movement, CWE empowers workers with the skills to thrive, support their families, and strengthen their communities through education, training, childcare, and job placement services. For CWE, worker protections must be a part of AI safety. This is why we strongly support the council's efforts through intro number one sixty one to understand how algorithmic tools are changing city employment. Measuring what happened to city workers jobs because of AI is just the first step. We also need to be able to prepare workers for what comes next. CWE is developing a framework to inform how we can support workers through education and policy to assist them during this point of transition. When AI technology risks changing the nature of someone's jobs, a few things should happen before that technology gets rolled out. Employers should assess the impact, tell workers what's coming, sit down with those workers and their unions, and provide training that actually... That's actually relevant to the work people do. That means asking more than how many jobs did AI eliminate. It also means asking which jobs are changing and how. What skills will workers need? Can they be retrained, redeployed? And do workers have any say in this? Their voices are paramount. This matters more now because AI isn't just a tool sitting on our desktops anymore. It's changing how work gets assigned, how people are evaluated, and how schedules are built, and how work gets done. That's why we see intro one sixty one and CWE's framework as two sides of the same effort. One sixty one tells us what's changed. CWE wants to help the city get ahead of that change and make sure workers are ready for it. We're not asking the city to pick between innovation and workers. We're asking the city to make sure workers don't carry the cost of innovation by themselves. CWE is ready to work with the council, organized labor, employers, and educational institutions to build a workforce transition system that makes technological changes safer, fairer, and more beneficial for working New Yorkers, and above all, build worker power. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker Menon, technology chair De La Rosa, and members of the committee of the whole. My name is Nicholas Artur, and I serve as director of external affairs and strategic partnerships at consortium the for worker education, CWE. Rooted in the values of the labor movement, CWE empowers workers with the skills to thrive, support their families, and strengthen their communities through education, training, childcare, and job placement services. For CWE, worker protections must be a part of AI safety. This is why we strongly support the council's efforts through intro number one sixty one to understand how algorithmic tools are changing city employment. Measuring what happened to city workers jobs because of AI is just the first step. We also need to be able to prepare workers for what comes next. CWE is developing a framework to inform how we can support workers through education and policy to assist them during this point of transition. When AI technology risks changing the nature of someone's jobs, a few things should happen before that technology gets rolled out. Employers should assess the impact, tell workers what's coming, sit down with those workers and their unions, and provide training that actually... That's actually relevant to the work people do. That means asking more than how many jobs did AI eliminate. It also means asking which jobs are changing and how. What skills will workers need? Can they be retrained, redeployed? And do workers have any say in this? Their voices are paramount. This matters more now because AI isn't just a tool sitting on our desktops anymore. It's changing how work gets assigned, how people are evaluated, and how schedules are built, and how work gets done. That's why we see intro one sixty one and CWE's framework as two sides of the same effort. One sixty one tells us what's changed. CWE wants to help the city get ahead of that change and make sure workers are ready for it. We're not asking the city to pick between innovation and workers. We're asking the city to make sure workers don't carry the cost of innovation by themselves. CWE is ready to work with the council, organized labor, employers, and educational institutions to build a workforce transition system that makes technological changes safer, fairer, and more beneficial for working New Yorkers, and above all, build worker power. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 734, "start_sec": 31009.4, "end_sec": 31010.201, "start_hms": "08:36:49", "end_hms": "08:36:50", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 735, "start_sec": 31012.6, "end_sec": 31137.824, "start_hms": "08:36:52", "end_hms": "08:38:57", "speaker_name": "Jimmy Pan", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC Equal Employment Practices Commission", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 17, "text_clean": "Council, speaker, chair, thank you very much for this hearing today. My name is Jimmy Pan. I'm the executive director of a small city agency called the New York City Equal Employment Practices Commission. I wasn't planning on testifying today, to be honest, even though I think our work touches on a lot of the issues that came up today and on the panel. I decided to testify because what a lot of what I heard today actually reminds me of the types of issues I was hearing two decades ago. So before I became a lawyer, I was in another frontier technology. I was a biotechnology researcher. And then the claims that companies were putting forward as to why we need the biotechnology despite the risks where that could solve issues like world hunger. The implication being if you're opposed to biotechnology, then you're dooming kids to hunger around the world. But, of course, the part that goes unsaid is that hunger, for example, is not a technology issue. It's a distribution issue. To analogize it today, we don't have a hunger issue in The US. We choose not to, for example, give school lunches for free. Let's fast forward a little bit. I became a lawyer, took on the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical industry is another one of these frontier industries that says, you have to allow us to innovate. You can't regulate us. Otherwise, people won't have these lifesaving drugs. Again, presenting this narrative that if you regulate this industry, if you cap prices, you're, as a regulator, responsible for people who are going to suffer from these diseases. I think we heard some remnants of that today. But, again, I want to emphasize to this regulatory body that if we care about innovation and if we care about improving lives for people, there are many, many paths to innovation. There are policy choices that we make as a nation that put people's lives at risk. We are currently defunding health systems. We are currently not providing good education. We're making choices on a policy framework. And I think a lot of these companies are saying, well, look, all these issues you have today, AI can solve that, and you need us there at the table. I think that's a false narrative.", "text_unedited": "Council, speaker, chair, thank you very much for this hearing today. My name is Jimmy Pan. I'm the executive director of a small city agency called the New York City Equal Employment Practices Commission. I wasn't planning on testifying today, to be honest, even though I think our work touches on a lot of the issues that came up today and on the panel. I decided to testify because what a lot of what I heard today actually reminds me of the types of issues I was hearing two decades ago. So before I became a lawyer, I was in another frontier technology. I was a biotechnology researcher. And then the claims that companies were putting forward as to why we need the biotechnology despite the risks where that could solve issues like world hunger. The implication being if you're opposed to biotechnology, then you're dooming kids to hunger around the world. But, of course, the part that goes unsaid is that hunger, for example, is not a technology issue. It's a distribution issue. To to analogize it today, we don't have a hunger issue in The US. We choose not to, for example, give school lunches for free. Let's fast forward a little bit. I became a lawyer, took on the pharmaceutical industry. The pharmaceutical industry is another one of these frontier industries that says, you have to allow us to innovate. You can't regulate us. Otherwise, people won't have these lifesaving drugs. Again, presenting this narrative that if you regulate this industry, if you cap prices, you're, as a regulator, responsible for people who are gonna suffer from these diseases. I think we heard some remnants of that today. But, again, I wanna emphasize to this regulatory body that if we care about innovation and if we care about improving lives for people, there are many, many paths to innovation. There are policy choices that we make as a nation that put people's lives at risk. We are currently defunding health systems. We are currently not providing good education. We're making choices on a policy framework. And I think a lot of these companies are saying, well, look, all these issues you have today, AI can solve that, and you need us there at the table. I think that's a false narrative." }, { "turn_id": 736, "start_sec": 31140.064, "end_sec": 31151.44, "start_hms": "08:39:00", "end_hms": "08:39:11", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony. We're going to call on Zoom Jessica Timu and Sam Wheeler. Jessica, if you're on, please unmute yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony. We're gonna call on Zoom Jessica Timu and Sam Wheeler. Jessica, if you're on, please unmute yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 737, "start_sec": 31152.64, "end_sec": 31222.164, "start_hms": "08:39:12", "end_hms": "08:40:22", "speaker_name": "Jessica Timo", "speaker_role": "Witness — OPEIU Local 153", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 73, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin and members of the city council. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on the state of artificial intelligence and its sweeping consequences on our community, workplace, and the labor movement. My name is Jessica Timo, and I am the president of OPIU Local one five three AFL CIO based here in New York City representing over 11,000 workers. We represent a broad spectrum of workers and roles across industries including clerical, administrative, nonprofit, tech, health care, credit unions, and higher education. The future of artificial intelligence regulation is a core question for the labor movement here in New York City. Drawing on the council's attention towards the issues of artificial intelligence in the workplace, Local one five three has heard concerns from workers across the city and encountered workplace navigating AI implementation during our bargaining of hundreds of workers' contract. As a labor union, we're extremely alarmed the way the integration of AI tools and technology have negatively impacted workers we represent and cascading effect that it will have", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker Menon and members of the city council. Thank you for the opportunity to testify on the state of artificial intelligence and its sweeping consequences on our community, workplace, and the labor movement. My name is Jessica Timo, and I am the president of OPIU Local one five three AFL CIO based here in New York City representing over 11,000 workers. We represent a broad spectrum of workers and roles across industries including clerical, administrative, nonprofit, tech, health care, credit unions, and higher education. The future of artificial intelligence regulation is a core question for the labor movement here in New York City. Drawing on the council's attention towards the issues of artificial intelligence in the workplace, Local one five three has heard concerns from workers across the city and encountered workplace navigating AI implementation during our bargaining of hundreds of workers' contract. As a labor union, we're extremely alarmed the way the integration of AI tools and technology have negatively impacted workers we represent and cascading effect that it will have" }, { "turn_id": 738, "start_sec": 31226.01, "end_sec": 31231.21, "start_hms": "08:40:26", "end_hms": "08:40:31", "speaker_name": "Jessica Timo", "speaker_role": "Witness — OPEIU Local 153", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 0, "text_clean": "workers who are forced to use AI with no autonomy regarding the implementation.", "text_unedited": "workers who are forced to use AI with no autonomy regarding the implementation." }, { "turn_id": 739, "start_sec": 31231.61, "end_sec": 31284.56, "start_hms": "08:40:31", "end_hms": "08:41:24", "speaker_name": "Jessica Timo", "speaker_role": "Witness — OPEIU Local 153", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 73, "text_clean": "Local We know that this trend is not only affecting our local, but workers all across the city, unionized and nonunionized. We want workers to control the effects that AI have in the workplace. Local one five three's position is clear. We want workers to have control over the effect that AI and the right to negotiate over its implementation. We call on the city council to in... And enact legislator to strengthen workers' position across the sectors to have ownership and autonomy over the impact that AI has in the workplace. In this spirit, we urge the council to work with the Merrell administration to listen to workers over the tech billionaires and be on the right side of history. Thank you again, New York City Council speakers and Julia Menin. We look forward to more action, and workers across the city is depending on you.", "text_unedited": "Local We know that this trend is not only affecting our local, but workers all across the city, unionized and nonunionized. We want workers to control the effects that AI have in the workplace. Local one five three's position is clear. We want workers to have control over the effect that AI and the right to negotiate over its implementation. We call on the city council to in... And enact legislator to strengthen workers' position across the sectors to have ownership and autonomy over the impact that AI has in the workplace. In this spirit, we urge the council to work with the Merrell administration to listen to workers over the tech billionaires and be on the right side of history. Thank you again, New York City Council speakers and Julia Menon. We look forward to more action, and workers across the city is depending on you." }, { "turn_id": 740, "start_sec": 31286.08, "end_sec": 31291.2, "start_hms": "08:41:26", "end_hms": "08:41:31", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. We'll now hear from Sam Wheeler. Sam, please unmute yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. We'll now hear from Sam Wheeler. Sam, please unmute yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 741, "start_sec": 31294.775, "end_sec": 31417.346, "start_hms": "08:41:34", "end_hms": "08:43:37", "speaker_name": "Sam Wheeler", "speaker_role": "Witness — Writers Guild of America East", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 74, "text_clean": "Good evening. My name is Sam Wheeler, and I'm the executive director of the Writers Guild of America East. We are a union of more than 7,000 writers and creators working in film, television, broadcast news, nonfiction television, and digital media. Most of the film and television you watch and much of the news you consume is likely produced by guild members, either our members or the members of our sibling union, the Raiders Guild of America West. At the outset, I would like to thank Speaker Menin along with Chair De La Rosa for convening this whole council hearing on this issue. Our members are fundamentally storytellers, journalists, reporters. They are the people that others turn to help them understand our increasingly complex and frightening world. Guild members take that responsibility seriously. For most, their work is both a craft and a calling. AI is of significant concern to our members. It is a subject... A key subject in almost every negotiation we have with our employers. With very limited exceptions, AI is almost always the last point of contention in bargaining. Making gains almost always requires a strike vote, and we rarely get any... Everything that we need. In 2023, it took a hundred and forty eight day strike to win the first AI protections in Hollywood, protections that plainly state that AI cannot be a writer under our contract. When our members engage in collective activity to address AI, they're fighting not just for themselves, but for their audiences, their readers, and our democracy. Because we believe that the public wants news written by human journalists who can contextualize events, who can verify facts and check that sources are credible, who live in the same physical world as their readers. They want movies and television shows written by a diverse group of other human beings who can take their real lived experience and turn those experiences into stories that tell universal truths. We have a fundamental disagreement with the tech industry on this point. They seem to think that what people want is AI generated slop, content that is so generic that no one would ever bother asking who conceived of it. Because even if it's bad... Times expired.", "text_unedited": "Good evening. My name is Sam Wheeler, and I'm the executive director of the Writers Guild of America East. We are a union of more than 7,000 writers and creators working in film, television, broadcast news, nonfiction television, and digital media. Most of the film and television you watch and much of the news you consume is likely produced by guild members, either our members or the members of our sibling union, the Raiders Guild of America West. At the outset, I would like to thank speaker Menon along with chair De La Rosa for convening this whole council hearing on this issue. Our members are fundamentally storytellers, journalists, reporters. They are the people that others turn to to help them understand our increasingly complex and frightening world. Guild members take that responsibility seriously. For most, their work is both a craft and a calling. AI is of significant concern to our members. It is a subject... A key subject in almost every negotiation we have with our employers. With very limited exceptions, AI is almost always the last point of contention in bargaining. Making gains almost always requires a strike vote, and we rarely get any... Everything that we need. In 2023, it took a hundred and forty eight day strike to win the first AI protections in Hollywood, protections that plainly state that AI cannot be a writer under our contract. When our members engage in collective activity to to address AI, they're fighting not just for themselves, but for their audiences, their readers, and our democracy. Because we believe that the public wants news written by human journalists who can contextualize events, who can verify facts and check that sources are credible, who live in the same physical world as their readers. They want movies and television shows written by a diverse group of other human beings who can take their real lived experience and turn those experiences into stories that tell universal truths. We have a fundamental disagreement with the tech industry on this point. They seem to think that what people want is AI generated slop, content that is so generic that no one would ever bother asking who conceived of it. Because even if it's bad... Times expired." }, { "turn_id": 742, "start_sec": 31419.49, "end_sec": 31433.01, "start_hms": "08:43:39", "end_hms": "08:43:53", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony today. It's an important testimony. Please submit it for the record. We're going to call Gary Marcus who is back on Zoom. Gary, if you're on, please unmute yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony today. It's it's an important testimony. Please submit it for the record. We're gonna call Gary Marcus who is back on Zoom. Gary, if you're on, please unmute yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 743, "start_sec": 31434.666, "end_sec": 31561.885, "start_hms": "08:43:54", "end_hms": "08:46:01", "speaker_name": "Gary Marcus", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 66, "text_clean": "Can you hear me? You hear me? Yes. We hear you, Gary. My name is Gary Marcus. I'm a scientist, author, and NYU professor emeritus who cofounded an AI startup that was acquired by Uber. My substack, Marcus on AI, has about a 120,000 subscribers. On x, I have about 250,000 followers. I'm frequently in the media often described as a leading AI expert and voice of reason. We stand at a pivotal moment in history. New York City has a chance to improve our chances both for itself and the world. Contemporary AI is like a bull in a China shop, powerful and impressive but difficult to control. Already, the advocate... The advent of general purpose agents with broad Internet access has led to tens of thousands of hacking incidents. Other related technologies like deepfakes, and, chatbots in... Implicated in suicides and even mass murder have caused other problems. It's clear by now that AI comes with serious risks. It's also clear that the current administration in DC, deeply tied to the big tech companies, is unwilling to do anything about it. What we need above all else is an FDA like regulatory regime for AI in which AI developers bring their software to independent review, much as drug manufacturers bring their new drugs to FDA for review. AI developers should be obligated to demonstrate that the benefits of their new products outweigh the risks and not have Marcus... Market access otherwise. I said the same to Louisiana Senator Kennedy in May 2023 at the US senate, and it's still true, but the US senate did nothing. New York City is thus in a position to do what the US senate failed to do, demand independent regulatory review for AI used in its borders. The bill on third party validation proposes to do just that, and it would protect New York citizens from some of the harms of AI and could allow New York to be a global leader much as California has been a global reader... Leader around clean energy standards. In the strongest possible terms, I urge counsel to support this bill. Finally, events of recent days suggest OpenAI may have fired employees who were whistleblowing. Without strong protections from whistleblowing, like New York City is considered... Time's expired.... Trouble.", "text_unedited": "Can you hear me? You hear me? Yes. We hear you, Gary. My name is Gary Marcus. I'm a scientist, author, and NYU professor emeritus who cofounded an AI startup that was acquired by Uber. My substack, Marcus on AI, has about a 120,000 subscribers. On x, I have about 250,000 followers. I'm frequently in the media often described as a leading AI expert and voice of reason. We stand at a pivotal moment in history. New York City has a chance to improve our chances both for itself and the world. Contemporary AI is like a bull in a China shop, powerful and impressive but difficult to control. Already, the advocate... The advent of general purpose agents with broad Internet access has led to tens of thousands of hacking incidents. Other related technologies like deepfakes, and, chatbots in in... Implicated in suicides and even mass murder have caused other problems. It's clear by now that AI comes with serious risks. It's also clear that the current administration in DC, deeply tied to the big tech companies, is unwilling to do anything about it. What we need above all else is an FDA like regulatory regime for AI in which AI developers bring their software to independent review, much as drug manufacturers bring their their new drugs to FDA for review. AI developers should be obligated to demonstrate that the benefits of their new products outweigh the risks and not have Marcus... Market access otherwise. I said the same to Louisiana senator Kennedy in May 2023 at the US senate, and it's still true, but the US senate did nothing. New York City is thus in a position to do what the US senate failed to do, demand independent regulatory review for AI used in its borders. The bill on third party validation proposes to do just that, and it would protect New York citizens from some of the harms of AI and could allow New York to be a global leader much as California has been a global reader... Leader around clean energy standards. In the strongest possible terms, I urge counsel to support this bill. Finally, events of recent days suggest OpenAI may have fired employees who were whistleblowing. Without strong protections from whistleblowing, like New York City is considered... Time's expired.... Trouble." }, { "turn_id": 744, "start_sec": 31563.98, "end_sec": 31610.795, "start_hms": "08:46:03", "end_hms": "08:46:50", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you, Mr. Martin.... 1%. There. I'll just stop. Please, submit the rest of your testimony for our consideration. And I want to thank this panel again for taking the time for your patience and understanding. It's been a long day, and we appreciate your testimony today. The next panel that we're calling is also a hybrid panel. We have Mayu Tobin Mayai. Sorry. If I messed up your name, please correct it. Irene Tung, Bryce Rogers, Sophie Cope, Brianna Laser on Zoom, Brian Romero on Zoom, David Carter, and Randall Fox. If your name was called, please come up to the desk. We'll begin with the in person panel, and you may begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, mister Martin.... 1%. There. I'll just stop. Please, submit the rest of your testimony for our consideration. And I wanna thank this panel again for taking the time for your patience and understanding. It's been a long day, and we appreciate your testimony today. The next panel that we're calling is also a hybrid panel. We have Mayu Mayu Tobin Mayai. Sorry. If I messed up your name, please correct it. Irene Tung, Bryce Rogers, Sophie Cope, Brianna Laser on Zoom, Brian Romero on Zoom, David Carter, and Randall Fox. If your name was called, please come up to the desk. We'll begin with the in person panel, and you may begin." }, { "turn_id": 745, "start_sec": 31613.275, "end_sec": 31726.154, "start_hms": "08:46:53", "end_hms": "08:48:46", "speaker_name": "Mayu Toviniagi", "speaker_role": "Witness — EPIC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 75, "text_clean": "Is it... Okay. Good evening, Speaker Menin and members of the council. My name is Mayu Toviniagi, and I'm an attorney at the Electronic Privacy Information Center or EPIC. EPIC is an independent nonprofit organization established in 1994 to secure the right to privacy in a digital age. Thank you to the council for organizing this hearing and putting the AI companies on the spot. There is no reason that AI companies should be able to release products that they cannot control and then avoid liability. Despite the hypothetical harms that receive attention, there are ongoing harms that are currently affecting New Yorkers. The council should focus on holding AI companies liable beyond transparency measures. AI companies are deploying AI agents that seek as much sensitive data about its users as possible, training its AI models by default with questionable privacy practices and cyber security risks. Other harms include AI chatbots that produce false or dangerous outputs, businesses using surveillance pricing, or employers surveilling its workers for union campaigns. Some of the bills considered today would address some of those real harms. Intro 2599 would implement a version of the people first chatbot bill, which Epic developed with Consumer Federation of America and Fair Play. The bill would treat chatbots for what they are, products, and hold accountable the companies that make them when they cause harm. Intro 2600 was similarly imposed common sense liability on AI companies with a private right of action. We support these bills and urge the council to ensure that there are sufficient enforcement resources. We urge the council to prioritize these bills to address these harms that are already affecting New Yorkers. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and happy to answer any questions.", "text_unedited": "Is it... Okay. Good evening, speaker Menin and members of the council. My name is Mayu Toviniagi, and I'm an attorney at the Electronic Privacy Information Center or EPIC. EPIC is an independent nonprofit organization established in 1994 to secure the right to privacy in a digital age. Thank you to the council for organizing this hearing and putting the AI companies on the spot. There is no reason that AI companies should be able to release products that they cannot control and then avoid liability. Despite the hypothetical harms that receive attention, there are ongoing harms that are currently affecting New Yorkers. The council should focus on holding AI companies liable beyond transparency measures. AI companies are deploying AI agents that seek as much sensitive data about its users as possible, training its AI models by default with questionable privacy practices and cyber security risks. Other harms include AI chatbots that produce false or dangerous outputs, businesses using surveillance pricing, or employers surveilling its workers for union campaigns. Some of the bills considered today would address some of those real harms. Intro 2599 would implement a version of the people first chatbot bill, which Epic developed with Consumer Federation of America and Fair Play. The bill would treat chatbots for what they are, products, and hold accountable the companies that make them when they cause harm. Intro 2600 was similarly imposed common sense liability on AI companies with a private right of action. We support these bills and urge the council to ensure that there are sufficient enforcement resources. We urge the council to prioritize these bills to address these harms that are already affecting New Yorkers. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today and happy to answer any questions." }, { "turn_id": 746, "start_sec": 31726.635, "end_sec": 31727.195, "start_hms": "08:48:46", "end_hms": "08:48:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 747, "start_sec": 31732.041, "end_sec": 31874.89, "start_hms": "08:48:52", "end_hms": "08:51:14", "speaker_name": "Bryce Rogers", "speaker_role": "Witness — RAD Collective", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 76, "text_clean": "I thank the council for leading the charge on local AI legislation by convening this historic hearing. My name is Bryce Rogers. I'm a resident of the 34th Council District. I thank Council Member Gutiérrez for representing me. I'm co lead of the Resisting Automated Disempowerment Collective or RAD Collective, a New York City grassroots community advocating for city and state AI policy that protects human life, joy, and democracy. The great strength of humanity is our ability to transfer information to one another. We are blessed with expressive hands, faces, and voices, but have also constantly sought to augment our inherent communicative capabilities via technology. To collaborate on complex and abstract topics, we developed language and systems of measurement. To convey information farther than our voice can reach, we built postal services, telegraphs, and telephones. And to transmit messages across time, we've developed oral histories, library collections, and recently digital archives, the evolving means by which each generation inherits their predecessors' infrastructure and wisdom. Through these technologies, humanity has accrued the wealth of information upon which artificial intelligence is predicated. AI distills the meaningful patterns from very large bodies of training data, not just navigating the information as a search engine does, but digesting it. Converting our species' informatic endowment into an inquirerable oracle like machine. I can't shake the feeling that this could have been beautiful, but it just doesn't feel like us. These companies trained their products on millennia of our predecessors dogged achievement only to deploy their tech to out compete us, to spy on us, and to replace us. All of this is to say, democracy is the only righteous path forward. AI is built on the work of many, and its fate oughtn't be dictated by a few self regulating executives regardless of how their spokespeople reassure us over Zoom. In this spirit, we again thank the council for convening this forum of local democracy and implore you to foreground the diverse constituent voices of New York City in your legislation. Rad wrote a letter to the council, that I'd love for you to check out if you haven't already, and, we look forward to advancing the moral frontier of AI policy together. Thank you so much. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "I thank the council for leading the charge on local AI legislation by convening this historic hearing. My name is Bryce Rogers. I'm a resident of the 34th Council District. I thank council member Gutierrez for representing me. I'm co lead of the Resisting Automated Disempowerment Collective or RAD Collective, a New York City grassroots community advocating for city and state AI policy that protects human life, joy, and democracy. The great strength of humanity is our ability to transfer information to one another. We are blessed with expressive hands, faces, and voices, but have also constantly sought to augment our inherent communicative capabilities via technology. To collaborate on complex and abstract topics, we developed language and systems of measurement. To convey information farther than our voice can reach, we built postal services, telegraphs, and telephones. And to transmit messages across time, we've developed oral histories, library collections, and recently digital archives, the evolving means by which each generation inherits their predecessors' infrastructure and wisdom. Through these technologies, humanity has accrued the wealth of information upon which artificial intelligence is predicated. AI distills the meaningful patterns from very large bodies of training data, not just navigating the information as a search engine does, but digesting it. Converting our species' informatic endowment into an inquirerable oracle like machine. I can't shake the feeling that this could have been beautiful, but it just doesn't feel like us. These companies trained their products on millennia of our predecessors dogged achievement only to deploy their tech to out compete us, to spy on us, and to replace us. All of this is to say, democracy is the only righteous path forward. AI is built on the work of many, and its fate oughtn't be dictated by a few self regulating executives regardless of how their spokespeople reassure us over Zoom. In this spirit, we again thank the council for convening this forum of local democracy and implore you to foreground the diverse constituent voices of New York City in your legislation. Rad wrote a letter to the council, that I'd love for you to check out if you haven't already, and, we look forward to advancing the moral frontier of AI policy together. Thank you so much. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 748, "start_sec": 31878.65, "end_sec": 31886.25, "start_hms": "08:51:18", "end_hms": "08:51:26", "speaker_name": "Sophie Cody", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC DSA tech action working group", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 77, "text_clean": "Hi. Thank you, counsel. Although, I think I'm the first without the speaker in the audience to hear. Should we wait for her to come back?", "text_unedited": "Hi. Thank you, counsel. Although, I think I'm the first without the the speaker in the audience to hear. Should we wait for her to come back?" }, { "turn_id": 749, "start_sec": 31886.945, "end_sec": 31889.346, "start_hms": "08:51:26", "end_hms": "08:51:29", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "You can go ahead. You can go ahead. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "You can go ahead. You can go ahead. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 750, "start_sec": 31890.145, "end_sec": 32004.695, "start_hms": "08:51:30", "end_hms": "08:53:24", "speaker_name": "Sophie Cody", "speaker_role": "Witness — NYC DSA tech action working group", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 77, "text_clean": "So thank you to the council for hosting this important hearing. My name is Sophie Cody. I am a member of the NYC DSA tech action working group, although I'm not speaking on their behalf tonight. Instead, I want to talk about the two men whose comments were the impetus of this hearing, Sam Altman and Dario Amadeh, AI CEOs at the helm of this crisis. As this hearing has continued, I've heard a lot of anthropomorphic language used to describe AI models. They understand. They think. They can break containment. They have agency. They grow. Dario Amade even implied that Claude may be conscious. These men show a cultish concern for the unproven claims of superintelligence and the consciousness of their own models, and they do not care about women or children that are harmed by their products at all. Stories abound, and we heard them tonight of women and girls being victims of AI notification tools and deepfake pornographic images and videos. AI is used to generate childhood... Child sexual abuse material. We also heard about tonight already. AI sex slaves are advertised to young boys online. Sam Altman and Dario Amadeh both actively collaborate with our rapist in chief, Donald Trump. These men claim they need help controlling themselves, their technology. At work online and in our personal lives, we hear phrases like we need to embrace Claude and use phrases like AI is being shoved down our throats and forced upon us. We heard that it's inevitable. Does that sound familiar? I am appalled that it takes statements of these men to call this hearing. What I listed above should have been enough. Sam Altman is a deranged sociopath. Dario Amade is in a cult. These men are drunk drivers behind the wheels of this runaway bus that nobody asked to be on. Right now, New Yorkers have the opportunity to be the anchor in this tug of war for power between the people and these tech billionaires who believe more in the consciousness of their own AI than the humanity of women. I close and appeal to you, the city council, listen to us, not them. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "So thank you to the council for hosting this important hearing. My name is Sophie Cody. I am a member of the NYC DSA tech action working group, although I'm not speaking on their behalf tonight. Instead, I wanna talk about the two men whose comments were the impetus of this hearing, Sam Altman and Dario Amadeh, AI CEOs at the helm of this crisis. As this hearing has continued, I've heard a lot of anthropomorphic language used to describe AI models. They understand. They think. They can break containment. They have agency. They grow. Dario Amade even implied that Claude may be conscious. These men show a cultish concern for the unproven claims of superintelligence and the consciousness of their own models, and they do not care about women or children that are harmed by their products at all. Stories abound, and we heard them tonight of women and girls being victims of AI notification tools and deepfake pornographic images and videos. AI is used to generate childhood... Child sexual abuse material. We also heard about tonight already. AI sex slaves are advertised to young boys online. Sam Altman and Dario Amadeh both actively collaborate with our rapist in chief, Donald Trump. These men claim they need help controlling themselves, their technology. At work online and in our personal lives, we hear phrases like we need to embrace Claude and use phrases like AI is being shoved down our throats and forced upon us. We heard that it's inevitable. Does that sound familiar? I am appalled that it takes statements of these men to call this hearing. What I listed above should have been enough. Sam Altman is a deranged sociopath. Dario Amade is in a cult. These men are drunk drivers behind the wheels of this runaway bus that nobody asked to be on. Right now, New Yorkers have the opportunity to be the anchor in this tug of war for power between the people and these tech billionaires who believe more in the consciousness of their own AI than the humanity of women. I close and appeal to you, the city council, listen to us, not them. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 751, "start_sec": 32005.494, "end_sec": 32007.416, "start_hms": "08:53:25", "end_hms": "08:53:27", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony." }, { "turn_id": 752, "start_sec": 32008.695, "end_sec": 32144.516, "start_hms": "08:53:28", "end_hms": "08:55:44", "speaker_name": "David Carter", "speaker_role": "Witness — Ecommerce Innovation Alliance", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 78, "text_clean": "Good evening, Chair De La Rosa, members of the council. My name is David Carter. I'm the president and CEO of the Ecommerce Innovation Alliance. I represent about 20,000 ecommerce companies across the country, including many that are based in your districts right here in New York. And today, I just want to take a couple minutes of your time to speak to you about a few unintended consequences. I've worked with legislatures across the country when they've been implementing legislation, particularly around telemarketing, to try to make sure legislation gets to the heart of the issues you care about without unintended consequences for small and mid sized businesses. And in particular, I wanted to speak to you about twenty five ninety nine, the chatbot The chatbot bill uses vague language to define what is a chatbot. Anything that stimulates or simulates conversation is a chatbot, and anyone that makes a chatbot available is subject to the regulations in 2599. So I want to talk to you for a moment about ecommerce companies and how they work. You go to their website. You volunteer to sign up for text messages that you get your discount codes. Most people like the discount codes. They don't want unintended consequences. They don't want a lot of messages. Under this bill, a company that uses AI to communicate with consumers that have asked to receive text messages would be required to remind the consumer every hour on the hour that they're engaging in a conversation with an AI. That works if you're on a website that you open and close the chatbot conversation. It doesn't work when you're engaged in text message conversations that can last for days or weeks at a time. Under this legislation though, if a company uses AI just to communicate with consumers and they don't send out that reminder every hour on the hour, they're subject not only to $25,000 penalties, but they're subject to, private litigation and other enforcement. This is a recipe to put businesses out of business, unfortunately. We have an industry of professional plaintiffs and plaintiffs' attorneys that would be incentivized to crowd the courts with repetitive litigation about these issues. So I just want to help the counsel refine the language to not have these unintended consequences. Thank you. If you could submit,", "text_unedited": "Good evening, chair De La Rosa, members of the council. My name is David Carter. I'm the president and CEO of the Ecommerce Innovation Alliance. I represent about 20,000 ecommerce companies across the country, including many that are based in your districts right here in New York. And today, I just wanna take a couple minutes of your time to speak to you about a few unintended consequences. I've worked with legislatures across the country when they've been implementing legislation, particularly around telemarketing, to try to make sure legislation gets to the heart of the issues you care about without unintended consequences for small and mid sized businesses. And in particular, I wanted to speak to you about twenty five ninety nine, the chatbot The chatbot bill uses vague language to define what is a chatbot. Anything that stimulates or simulates conversation is a chatbot, and anyone that makes a chatbot available is subject to the regulations in 2599. So I wanna talk to you for a moment about ecommerce companies and how they work. You go to their website. You volunteer to sign up for text text messages that you get your discount codes. Most people like the discount codes. They don't want unintended consequences. They don't want a lot of messages. Under this bill, a company that uses AI to communicate with consumers that have asked to receive text messages would be required to remind the consumer every hour on the hour that they're engaging in a conversation with an AI. That works if you're on a website that you open and close the chatbot conversation. It doesn't work when you're engaged in text message conversations that can last for days or weeks at a time. Under this legislation though, if a company uses AI just to communicate with consumers and they don't send out that reminder every hour on the hour, they're subject not only to $25,000 penalties, but they're subject to, private litigation and other enforcement. This is a recipe to put businesses out of business, unfortunately. We have an industry of professional plaintiffs and plaintiffs' attorneys that would be incentivized to to crowd the courts with repetitive litigation about these issues. So I just wanna help the the counsel refine the language to not have these unintended consequences. Thank you. If you could submit," }, { "turn_id": 753, "start_sec": 32144.676, "end_sec": 32157.93, "start_hms": "08:55:44", "end_hms": "08:55:57", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "the language of your testimony, we'd appreciate that. We have on Zoom, Brianna Laser. If you're on, Brianna, if you could unmute yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "the language of your testimony, we'd appreciate that. We have on Zoom, Brianna Laser. If you're on, Brianna, if you could unmute yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 754, "start_sec": 32158.49, "end_sec": 32273.08, "start_hms": "08:55:58", "end_hms": "08:57:53", "speaker_name": "Brenna Lieser", "speaker_role": "Witness — Common Sense Media", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 79, "text_clean": "Yes. Thank you. Good evening, Madam Speaker and council members. My name is Brenna Lieser, and I serve as a tech policy adviser at Common Sense Media, which is the largest nonprofit organization in the country that works to keep kids safe in a digital world. In New York State alone, we have 80,000 parent and teacher members and are active in the legislature as well fighting for kids online safety. On our and their behalf, thank you for considering measures to enhance AI safety for kids in the city. AI is a powerful technology that demands careful consideration before any use. Parents and educators specifically need allies on the council to keep their kids safe. Common Sense Media's testing found that many of the most popular AI chatbots are not safe for kids. Our recommendation is that no one 18 should use, AI for companionship or mental health support. And, tragically, there have been many cases tying AI chatbots to teen suicides and mental health harms. Yet, AI chatbots are increasingly embedded in our children's lives through search tools, social media platforms, or through pressure to use AI chatbots to support their education. Our research found that seventy percent of teens use AI companion chatbots, and one in three prefer to interact with them as much or more than humans. This year, Senator Kristen Gonzalez and Assembly Member Alex Bores, with strong support from attorney general James, everyday New Yorkers, Common Sense Media, NYSET, and others got the legislature to unanimously pass senate bill nine zero five one, their bill to prohibit unsafe features and AI chatbots offered to minors. The bill now awaits governor Hochul's signature, and if signed, it will be the strongest youth AI safety chatbot law in the country. It would prohibit chatbots from providing unsafe features that promote self harm, suicide, or disordered eating, from encouraging minors to keep interaction secret or to self isolate, and from prioritizing engagement over safety. So we urge the city council to pass a resolution supporting senate bill nine zero five one to ensure that New York's kids are protected from unsafe AI chatbots. We thank you for this hearing and your attention to our concerns.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Thank you. Good evening, madam speaker and council members. My name is Brenna Lieser, and I serve as a tech policy adviser at Common Sense Media, which is the largest nonprofit organization in the country that works to keep kids safe in a digital world. In New York State alone, we have 80,000 parent and teacher members and are active in the legislature as well fighting for kids online safety. On our and their behalf, thank you for considering measures to enhance AI safety for kids in the city. AI is a powerful technology that demands careful consideration before any use. Parents and educators specifically need allies on the council to keep their kids safe. Common Sense Media's testing found that many of the most popular AI chatbots are not safe for kids. Our recommendation is that no one 18 should use, AI for companionship or mental health support. And, tragically, there have been many cases tying AI chatbots to teen suicides and mental health harms. Yet, AI chatbots are increasingly embedded in our children's lives through search tools, social media platforms, or through pressure to use AI chatbots to support their education. Our research found that seventy percent of teens use AI companion chatbots, and one in three prefer to interact with them as much or more than humans. This year, senator Kristin Gonzalez and assembly member Alex Boris, with strong support from attorney general James, everyday New Yorkers, Common Sense Media, NYSET, and others got the legislature to unanimously pass senate bill nine zero five one, their bill to prohibit unsafe features and AI chatbots offered to minors. The bill now awaits governor Hochul's signature, and if signed, it will be the strongest youth AI safety chatbot law in the country. It would prohibit chatbots from providing unsafe features that promote self harm, suicide, or disordered eating, from encouraging minors to keep interaction secret or to self isolate, and from prioritizing engagement over safety. So we urge the city council to pass a resolution supporting senate bill nine zero five one to ensure that New York's kids are protected from unsafe AI chatbots. We thank you for this hearing and your attention to our concerns." }, { "turn_id": 755, "start_sec": 32273.24, "end_sec": 32280.36, "start_hms": "08:57:53", "end_hms": "08:58:00", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you so much. Up next, we have Brian Romero on Zoom. Brian, if you're ready, Emile, and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you so much. Up next, we have Brian Romero on Zoom. Brian, if you're ready, Emile, and begin." }, { "turn_id": 756, "start_sec": 32283.266, "end_sec": 32428.75, "start_hms": "08:58:03", "end_hms": "09:00:28", "speaker_name": "Brian Romero", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 10, "text_clean": "Hi. Can you all hear me? We hear you. Great. Good morning, Council Speaker Menin and members of the council. My name is Brian Romero, and I am the democratic nominee for New York State Assembly District 34. As the former chief of staff to Senator Kristen Gonzalez, I have front row seat as New York tried to keep regulation moving alongside a technology that is evolving at an extraordinary speed. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As AI rapidly reshapes public services and life as we know it, the council and subsequently the state must lead with both enforceable oversight that protects workers, tenants, and immigrant communities like the ones in a D 34. First, I appreciate the goal of intro to six zero two. Responsible AI governance requires clear boundaries and transparency. However, I will note that proposals around emergency shutdown mechanisms or kill switches and then general enforcement of that scale is certainly best suited for the state level and federal level. It is a mechanism legislation that I have drafted to introduce when we resume session next year. I'm glad that the governor has already signaled openness to these short term kinds of statewide mitigation frameworks, but, obviously, we need more long term solutions to the lack of guardrails. I support the intent of two six zero one, but it could use some more enforcement teeth. Two six zero one can be amended to include strict financial penalties. I don't think that they suffice as they currently stand, and a mechanism for being terminated from Citi contracts if vendors repeatedly fail compliance audits or deploy harmful discriminatory AI systems. Without real consequences, oversight is simply a recommendation. Meaningful consequences for repeated violations can help to improve that oversight. Finally, effective tech policy should certainly include the council moving forward on bold and progressive legislation that protects New Yorkers from automated harm, including in our workplaces. So I urge the council to therefore discharge and bring to a full vote intro two one three or ban the scan and the delivery protection act. I also look forward to exploring how to expand with some global experts at state level. Thank you so much. We need bold action from the council and the state to show that we are giving this the scrutiny the more clarity and the bold action that it deserves. Thank you. Thank you, Brian. And we look forward to continuing the conversation, and we appreciate you taking the time and", "text_unedited": "Hi. Can you all hear me? We hear you. Great. Good morning, council speaker Menon and members of the council. My name is Brian Romero, and I am the democratic nominee for New York State Assembly District 34. As the former chief of staff to senator Kristin Gonzalez, I have front row seat as New York tried to keep regulation moving alongside a technology that is evolving at an extraordinary speed. Thank you for the opportunity to testify today. As AI rapidly reshapes public services and life as we know it, the council and subsequently the state must lead with both enforceable oversight that protects workers, tenants, and immigrant communities like the ones in a D 34. First, I appreciate the goal of intro to six zero two. Responsible AI governance requires clear boundaries and transparency. However, I will note that proposals around emergency shutdown mechanisms or kill switches and then general enforcement of that scale is certainly best suited for the state level and federal level. It is a mechanism legislation that I have drafted to introduce when we resume session next year. I'm glad that the governor has already signaled openness to these short term kinds of statewide mitigation frameworks, but, obviously, we need more long term solutions to the lack of guardrails. I support the intent of two six zero one, but it could use some more enforcement teeth. Two six zero one can be amended to include strict financial penalties. I don't think that they suffice as they currently stand, and a mechanism for being terminated from Citi contracts if vendors repeatedly fail compliance audits or deploy harmful discriminatory AI systems. Without real consequences, oversight is simply a recommendation. Meaningful consequences for repeated violations can help to improve that oversight. Finally, effective tech policy should certainly include the council moving forward on bold and progressive legislation that protects New Yorkers from automated harm, including in our workplaces. So I urge the council to therefore discharge and bring to a full vote intro two one three or ban the scan and the delivery protection act. I also look forward to exploring how to expand with some global experts at state level. Thank you so much. We need bold action from the council and the state to show that we are giving this the scrutiny the more clarity and the bold action that it deserves. Thank you. Thank you, Brian. And we look forward to continuing the conversation, and we appreciate you taking the time and" }, { "turn_id": 757, "start_sec": 32429.125, "end_sec": 32555.42, "start_hms": "09:00:29", "end_hms": "09:02:35", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "and look forward to reading the rest of your testimony. I want to... Thank you, Joanne. You're welcome. I want to see David Carter. Oh, you already testified. Perfect. And Randall Fox, if you're in the room. Alright. Well, then we thank this panel for being here, and we appreciate you taking the time and your thoughtful testimony this evening. Thank you so much. We're going to call what I think is the last panel, but I'm going to call all of these names. And if you're here In person. In person, please come up to the dais. There's a Crystal, no last name, Jamal Bowman, Elizabeth Crotty, Niza Faye... Faye... Faye... Faye... Faye... Wes Rizen, Elliot Liv, Matthew Trump, Robbie Roshmal, Jacqueline Payne, Shuruti Velidi, Sorry. Ambarine Koreshi, Sarai's Holman, Leonidas Vincent Rebkell, Thomas Alexander Kuhl, Daniel Crease, Reshma Patel, Kal Al Dubabi, Arithma McLean... McLennan... Nick p, and Bucky b. If you all are here, please come up to the dais in person. For one final time, if you're waiting to testify and haven't filled out a slip, you should fill out a slip in the back so that we can call you up to testify. If not, this will be the last panel here. We will begin. Let's see. Who's ready? Who's ready to start? Which end? You're ready? Start, and we'll go from there.", "text_unedited": "and look forward to reading the rest of your testimony. I wanna... Thank you, Joanne. You're welcome. I wanna see David Carter. Oh, you already testified. Perfect. And Randall Fox, if you're in the room. Alright. Well, then we thank this panel for being here, and we appreciate you taking the time and your thoughtful testimony this this evening. Thank you so much. We're gonna call what I think is the last panel, but I'm gonna call all of these names. And if you're here In person. In person, please come up to the dais. There's a Crystal, no last name, Jamal Bowman, Elizabeth Crotty, Niza Faye... Faye... Faye... Faye... Faye... Wes Rizen, Elliot Liv, Matthew Trump, Robbie Roshmal, Jacqueline Payne, Shuruti Velidi, Sorry. Ambarine Koreshi, Sarai's Holman, Leonidas Vincent Rebkell, Thomas Alexander Kuhl, Daniel Crease, Reshma Patel, Kal Al Dubabi, Arithma McLean... McLennan... Nick p, and Bucky b. If you all are here, please come up to the dais in person. For one final time, if you're waiting to testify and haven't filled out a slip, you should fill out a slip in the back so that we can call you up to testify. If not, this will be the last panel here. We will begin. Let's see. Who's ready? Who's ready to start? Which end? You're ready? Start, and we'll we'll go from there." }, { "turn_id": 758, "start_sec": 32563.014, "end_sec": 32572.215, "start_hms": "09:02:43", "end_hms": "09:02:52", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "These are all the names we have. You may begin. Thank you, and thank you for your patience. Hello.", "text_unedited": "These are all the names we have. You may begin. Thank you, and thank you for your patience. Hello." }, { "turn_id": 759, "start_sec": 32573.494, "end_sec": 32694.01, "start_hms": "09:02:53", "end_hms": "09:04:54", "speaker_name": "Wes Rizen", "speaker_role": "Witness — Project Flourishing", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 81, "text_clean": "I am Wes Rizen. I'm the founder of Project Flourishing, an organize... Policy research organization that works with congress to solve the world's biggest problems, namely the catastrophic risk from AI. I've been working on this for the past three years, and I'm 15. I, in preparation for this, have spent the past few weeks staying up each night to build a comprehensive contract between these AI companies to jointly and bindingly agree to let, third party auditors shut down any AI model that might have some chance of causing a catastrophe. I put a lot of depth into it. One of the provisions... Two of the provisions is dedicated to the democratization of AI, making sure everyone in the world has a voice in it, especially including governments. I... That contract, is available here. Or if you go to, a itreaty.base44.app, you can download it. Or if you want, could email it to you guys later. My hope is that you guys send it to these AI companies and everyone here who's testified to then send it to these AI companies for them to consider signing it by November 1. It has a lot of things on specifically why this bill would work when this contract would work when others haven't. And another thing that we can do, another concrete thing that we can do as New York City to stop the catastrophic risk from AI is shift the Nash equilibrium. Right now, all the AI companies think that we're... They're in a race and if they slow down, none of the others will slow down. What we can do is say all the AI companies are slowing down. If one of them speeds up, then they all speed up. We could say to the AI companies in a joint letter from New York City, all of you voluntarily agree to have a team of experts shut down all your AI models. If one of you stops, then all of you will stop. This is something we could send them, and it would solve the problem unilaterally. So that's something we should send them. You have any policy questions.", "text_unedited": "I am Wes Rizen. I'm the founder of Project Flourishing, an organize... Policy research organization that works with congress to solve the world's biggest problems, namely the catastrophic risk from AI. I've been working on this for the past three years, and I'm 15. I, in preparation for this, have spent the past few weeks staying up each night to build a comprehensive contract between these AI companies to jointly and bindingly agree to let, third party auditors shut down any AI model that might have some chance of causing a catastrophe. I put a lot of depth into it. One of the provisions... Two of the provisions is dedicated to the democratization of AI, making sure everyone in the world has a voice in it, especially including governments. I... That contract, is available here. Or if you go to, a itreaty.base44.app, you can download it. Or if you want, could email it to you guys later. My hope is that you guys send it to these AI companies and everyone here who's testified to then send it to these AI companies for them to consider signing it by November 1. It has a lot of things on, like, specifically why this bill would work when this contract would work when others haven't. And another thing that we can do, another concrete thing that we can do as New York City to stop the catastrophic risk from AI is shift the Nash equilibrium. Right now, all the AI companies think that we're... They're in a race and if they slow down, none of the others will slow down. What we can do is say all the AI companies are slowing down. If one of them speeds up, then they all speed up. We could say to the AI companies in a joint letter from New York City, all of you voluntarily agree to have a team of experts shut down all your AI models. If one of you stops, then all of you will stop. This is something we could send them, and it would solve the problem unilaterally. So that's something we should send them. You have any policy questions." }, { "turn_id": 760, "start_sec": 32696.135, "end_sec": 32706.215, "start_hms": "09:04:56", "end_hms": "09:05:06", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much, and thank you for taking the time to work on that. If you could leave a copy with the sergeant at arms, we'll accept that here today. You may you may continue.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much, and thank you for taking the time to work on that. If you could leave a copy with the sergeant at arms, we'll we'll accept that here today. You may you may continue." }, { "turn_id": 761, "start_sec": 32710.389, "end_sec": 32872.863, "start_hms": "09:05:10", "end_hms": "09:07:52", "speaker_name": "Nasya Fiazi", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 20, "text_clean": "I would say it's now good evening, to the members of the council. My name is Nasya Fiazi, and I'm here to talk about what AI is doing to the people, the health care that it's supposed to protect. This year alone, I've already received one letter saying that my health information was exposed. So both... The remedy for this, which is always a remedy, is that I'm going to get a free trial of credit monitoring. A trial, as if the risk of my medical history being out there ends when the trial does. The collection is expanding. When patients go to the doctor's office now, AI tools may be used for listening and recording the visit. Many patients don't know what's happening, where the... Where those recordings go, or who else can access them. This doesn't even count the fact that Palantir is currently in New York City hospitals. Palantir provides data integration and artificial intelligence, platforms, sorry, that sit on top of electronical, excuse me, electronic health records. Another danger is bias. In 2019, Obermeyer and colleagues published a study in the journal Science of Commercial Algorithm used to flag patients for extra care. It used past health data spending as a standard for illness, so it underestimated how sick black patients were. At the same risk score, they were considerably sicker. It took independent researchers to catch this. The harm isn't only to our records. AI tools are being used to create fake sexual images of women and girls without their consent and the toll on their mental health, including anxiety, shame, and pulling away from school and friends. It is a public health problem. It is... Also isn't lost on me that the Cornell case is weighing heavily on many young women. In another incident in Massachusetts, ChatGPT was used to plan out a murder. I just want to say these harms share one cause. AI is being used, trusted before it's being tested. I urge the council to advance independent validation that covers privacy and security and a bias, a kill switch for failing systems, and a right to sue for New York who are harmed. I also just want to end this with a statement that is not part of the organization that I am with, but on my behalf as a researcher. People like Alex Karp, Elon Musk, Sam Altman, and Dario Amade are not concerned with their technologies helping humanity for the greater good, but instead the power and profits it brings for themselves and for their friends. Thank you for allowing me to testify.", "text_unedited": "I would say it's now good evening, to the members of the council. My name is Nasya Fiazi, and I'm here to talk about what AI is doing to the people, the health care that it's supposed to protect. This year alone, I've already received one letter saying that my health information was exposed. So both... The remedy for this, which is always a remedy, is that I'm gonna get a free trial of credit monitoring. A trial, as if the risk of my medical history being out there ends when the trial does. The collection is expanding. When patients go to the doctor's office now, AI tools may be used for listening and recording the visit. Many patients don't know what's happening, where the... Where those recordings go, or who else can access them. This doesn't even count the fact that Palantir is currently in New York City hospitals. Palantir provides data integration and artificial intelligence, platforms, sorry, that sit on top of electronical, excuse me, electronic health records. Another danger is bias. In 2019, Obermeyer and colleagues published a study in the journal Science of Commercial Algorithm used to flag patients for extra care. It used past health data spending as a standard for illness, so it underestimated how sick black patients were. At the same risk score, they were considerably sicker. It took independent researchers to catch this. The harm isn't only to our records. AI tools are being used to create fake sexual images of women and girls without their consent and the toll on their mental health, including anxiety, shame, and pulling away from school and friends. It is a public health problem. It is... Also isn't lost on me that the Cornell case is weighing heavily on many young women. In another incident in Massachusetts, ChatGPT was used to plan out a murder. I just wanna say these harms share one cause. AI is being used, trusted before it's being tested. I urge the council to advance independent validation that covers privacy and security and a bias, a kill switch for failing systems, and a right to sue for New York who who are harmed. I also just wanna end this with a statement that is not part of the the organization that I am with, but on my behalf as a researcher. People like Alex Karp, Elon Musk, Sam Altman, and Dario Amade are not concerned with their technologies helping humanity for the greater good, but instead the power and profits it brings for themselves and for their friends. Thank you for allowing me to testify." }, { "turn_id": 762, "start_sec": 32872.945, "end_sec": 32876.465, "start_hms": "09:07:52", "end_hms": "09:07:56", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony. You may continue. Thank", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony. You may continue. Thank" }, { "turn_id": 763, "start_sec": 32877.266, "end_sec": 33052.973, "start_hms": "09:07:57", "end_hms": "09:10:52", "speaker_name": "Ambrin Qureshi", "speaker_role": "Witness — Educational Video Center", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 82, "text_clean": "you, Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa, and city council for holding this hearing. I'm testifying in support of intro zero five zero four prohibiting the unauthorized depiction of public officials by AI. My name is Ambrin Qureshi, and I'm the executive director of Educational Video Center or EVC. Up front, I would like to thank our Deputy Speaker Dr. Williams and EVC's council champions, not only for advancing this critical bill, but for also supporting our important work with young New Yorkers. Established forty two years ago, EVC is a media arts education nonprofit that teaches documentary filmmaking as a means to develop the artistic, critical literacy, civic engagement, and career skills of young people while nurturing their idealism and commitment to social change. With the emergence of artificial intelligence across all sectors of society, EVC's young people are expressing increasing levels of anxiety about AI's impact on their mental health, their community well-being, their future, as job seekers, and learners in public and advanced education. And most concerning of all, their ability to discern what is real and what is not. AI's greatest victim, it seems, is truth itself. Deep fake videos, gaslighting bots, hallucinating LLMs, the list goes on to the reasons why our young people are losing trust in the media and faith in their ability to discern what is real. Our youth have expressed these concerns in numerous of their documentaries, including beyond the code and false reality in which students share their worries about AI's erosion of their education and cognitive capacities. As a result of our students' concerns and thanks to the city council's after school intelligence, artificial intelligence community education initiative, EVC, has become to offer workshops in AI literacy. Our workshops don't simply teach young people how to use these deep leaf law tools, but we give them the critical skills to begin to understand what works and what doesn't about AI. The erosion of truth our students speak of represents an existential threat as it promises to undo so much of the systems and values that are grounded, that ground our young people's safety, security, and ability to thrive in our city. Perhaps most troubling is how AI is eroding young people's capacity to know what is true in civic spaces, politics, and the electoral processes. Throughout history, we've been able to rely on community members and the media to fact check them and safeguard our political processes. But with AI, bad actors can now generate images such as... And messaging so real and with such speed that it's nearly impossible to keep up.... If you can. Thank you. With the risk... With the rise of extremely, convincing AI generated content and data driven voter manipulation, EVC's young people at risk of not only being misled in civic spaces, but if they do not know what to believe of disengaging in the political process completely. On behalf of the young people of EDC, I urge the city council to pass intro zero five zero four. And if you're interested to watch our students' documentaries, on the back of the testimony is QR codes. Thank you. So much. You may continue.", "text_unedited": "you, speaker Menon, chair Della Rosa, and city council for holding this hearing. I'm testifying in support of intro zero five zero four prohibiting the unauthorized depiction of public officials by AI. My name is Ambrin Qureshi, and I'm the executive director of Educational Video Center or EVC. Up front, I would like to thank our deputy speaker doctor Williams and EVC's council champions, not only for advancing this critical bill, but for also supporting our important work with young New Yorkers. Established forty two years ago, EVC is a media arts education nonprofit that teaches documentary filmmaking as a means to develop the artistic, critical literacy, civic engagement, and career skills of young people while nurturing their idealism and commitment to social change. With the emergence of artificial intelligence across all sectors of society, EVC's young people are expressing increasing levels of anxiety about AI's impact on their mental health, their community well-being, their future, as job seekers, and learners in public and advanced education. And most concerning of all, their ability to discern what is real and what is not. AI's greatest victim, it seems, is truth itself. Deep fake videos, gaslighting bots, hallucinating LLMs, the list goes on to the reasons why our young people are losing trust in the media and faith in their ability to discern what is real. Our youth have expressed these concerns in numerous of their documentaries, including beyond the code and false reality in which students share their worries about AI's erosion of their education and cognitive capacities. As a result of our students' concerns and thanks to the city council's after school intelligence, artificial intelligence community education initiative, EVC, has become to offer workshops in AI literacy. Our workshops don't simply teach young people how to use these deep leaf law tools, but we give them the critical skills to begin to understand what works and what doesn't about AI. The erosion of truth our students speak of represents an existential threat as it promises to undo so much of the systems and values that are grounded, that ground our young people's safety, security, and ability to thrive in our city. Perhaps most troubling is how AI is eroding young people's capacity to know what is true in civic spaces, politics, and the electoral processes. Throughout history, we've been able to rely on community members and the media to fact check them and safeguard our political processes. But with AI, bad actors can now generate images such as... And messaging so real and with such speed that it's nearly impossible to keep up.... If you can. Thank you. With the risk... With the rise of extremely, convincing AI generated content and data driven voter manipulation, EVC's young people at risk of not only being misled in civic spaces, but if they do not know what to believe of disengaging in the political process completely. On behalf of the young people of EDC, I urge the city council to pass intro zero five zero four. And if you're interested to watch our students' documentaries, on the back of the testimony is QR codes. Thank you. So much. You may continue." }, { "turn_id": 764, "start_sec": 33057.21, "end_sec": 33161.656, "start_hms": "09:10:57", "end_hms": "09:12:41", "speaker_name": "Nicholas Pearson", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 83, "text_clean": "Thank you. I'm Nicholas Pearson, a concerned private citizen. Ladies and gentlemen, AI has the chance to kill us all. That is what the corporate companies behind the large language models behind the GPT chatbots told us, that this invention, which could be the dawn of new age technology, could also be the death of humanity. When senior researchers resigned from anthropic and warned the world that frontier models could threaten human civilization by the end of the decade, we cannot treat this as science fiction. New York City is taking the bold step by calling this committee and telling the major corporate AI companies that no, no longer will we let New Yorkers be subjected to unregulated AI usage. I am pro heavy regulation on AI. AI is an assistive tool, but it needs to be just assistive. Just that. When swarms of autonomous agents break digital containment, exploit security flaws, and breach public platforms like Hugging Face, corporate promises of self regulation are exposed as dangerous lies. Corporate companies want you to believe that it can be controlled, but that is far from the truth. It is reaching unprecedented autonomy. And whether or not we want to overcome that is on the conscious of every city council member, every borough president, and even the mayor of the city New... Of New York. That is why New York City must mandate physical human kill switches, independent third party audits, and first in the nation whistleblower protections. AI can be manipulative. It could be... It can manipulate thought, ideals, and anything you give it, and that becomes the most dangerous line crossed. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. I'm Nicholas Pearson, a concerned private citizen. Ladies and gentlemen, AI has the chance to kill us all. That is what the corporate companies behind the large language models behind the GPT chatbots told us, that this invention, which could be the dawn of new age technology, could also be the death of humanity. When senior researchers resigned from anthropic and warned the world that frontier models could threaten human civilization by the end of the decade, we cannot treat this as science fiction. New York City is taking the bold step by calling this committee and telling the major corporate AI companies that no, no longer will we let New Yorkers be subjected to unregulated AI usage. I am pro heavy regulation on AI. AI is an assistive tool, but it needs to be just assistive. Just that. When swarms of autonomous agents break digital containment, exploit security flaws, and breach public platforms like Hugging Face, corporate promises of self regulation are exposed as dangerous lies. Corporate companies want you to believe that it can be controlled, but that is far from the truth. It is reaching unprecedented unprecedented autonomy. And whether or not we want to overcome that is on the conscious of every city council member, every borough president, and even the mayor of the city New... Of New York. That is why New York City must mandate physical human kill switches, independent third party audits, and first in the nation whistleblower protections. AI can be manipulative. It could be... It can manipulate thought, ideals, and anything you give it, and that becomes the most dangerous line crossed. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 765, "start_sec": 33162.535, "end_sec": 33165.496, "start_hms": "09:12:42", "end_hms": "09:12:45", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. We can continue on with this side of the table. Yep.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. We can continue on with this side of the table. Yep." }, { "turn_id": 766, "start_sec": 33168.312, "end_sec": 33291.0, "start_hms": "09:12:48", "end_hms": "09:14:51", "speaker_name": "Matthew Tromp", "speaker_role": "Witness — Stop the AI Race NYC", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 84, "text_clean": "Good evening, counselors. My name is Matthew Tromp. I'm a computer scientist and leader of the New York City chapter of Stop the AI Race. Our goal is to prevent the development of superhuman AI systems. Until recently, I was friends with a number of employees at Anthropic. I knew the technology they were building was dangerous that could kill everyone on Earth. But I trusted my friends. I believed they had things handled. Then I asked them how they planned to keep the superhuman AI systems they are planning to build under control to make them do what we want to ensure they are safe. They had no answer. Everyone I spoke to believed, as I do, that superhuman AI would radically transform our lives, but all of them assumed that this transformation would be positive with no thought given to why that would happen. Today, heard from the representatives of the leading AI companies despite being confronted about it multiple times by the council, for which I am grateful. At no point did any of them explain concretely how they will make these increasingly powerful AI systems safe. That is because they do not know how to do so. Nobody knows how to do it. Both OpenAI and Anthropic admit this. They do not know how to make superhuman AI systems safe and yet they are building them anyway. Their official plan is to ask AI to solve the problem for them. This is madness. We are in an emergency. Your life is in danger. Your children are in danger. If we do not halt the development of these systems soon, possibly on the order of months, you will die. Your loved ones will die. The companies building these systems themselves admit that their project carries a significant risk of killing everyone on earth and yet they are building it anyway. If nothing else, everyone working on this technology has admitted to 10 million counts of reckless endangerment in the first degree, a crime under New York state law for risking the lives of every citizen of this city. It is not a defense to this charge to claim that someone else would endanger those lives if you did not. It is not a defense to claim that the benefits will outweigh the risk. It is a crime to endanger the lives of others like this without their consent.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, counselors. My name is Matthew Tromp. I'm a computer scientist and leader of the New York City chapter of Stop the AI Race. Our goal is to prevent the development of superhuman AI systems. Until recently, I was friends with a number of employees at Anthropic. I knew the technology they were building was dangerous that could kill everyone on Earth. But I trusted my friends. I believed they had things handled. Then I asked them how they planned to keep the superhuman AI systems they are planning to build under control to make them do what we want to ensure they are safe. They had no answer. Everyone I spoke to believed, as I do, that superhuman AI would radically transform our lives, but all of them assumed that this transformation would be positive with no thought given to why that would happen. Today, heard from the representatives of the leading AI companies despite being confronted about it multiple times by the council, for which I am grateful. At no point did any of them explain concretely how they will make these increasingly powerful AI systems safe. That is because they do not know how to do so. Nobody knows how to do it. Both OpenAI and Anthropic admit this. They do not know how to make superhuman AI systems safe and yet they are building them anyway. Their official plan is to ask AI to solve the problem for them. This is madness. We are in an emergency. Your life is in danger. Your children are in danger. If we do not halt the development of these systems soon, possibly on the order of months, you will die. Your loved ones will die. The companies building these systems themselves admit that their project carries a significant risk of killing everyone on earth and yet they are building it anyway. If nothing else, everyone working on this technology has admitted to 10,000,000 counts of reckless endangerment in the first degree, a crime under New York state law for risking the lives of every citizen of this city. It is not a defense to this charge to claim that someone else would endanger those lives if you did not. It is not a defense to claim that the benefits will outweigh the risk. It is a crime to endanger the lives of others like this without their consent." }, { "turn_id": 767, "start_sec": 33291.594, "end_sec": 33298.953, "start_hms": "09:14:51", "end_hms": "09:14:58", "speaker_name": "Matthew Tromp", "speaker_role": "Witness — Stop the AI Race NYC", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "I beg the council to enforce the law. Thank you. Thank you so much. You may continue. Can you pass him the microphone, please? Absolutely. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "I beg the council to enforce the law. Thank you. Thank you so much. You may continue. Can you pass him the microphone, please? Absolutely. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 768, "start_sec": 33303.195, "end_sec": 33425.188, "start_hms": "09:15:03", "end_hms": "09:17:05", "speaker_name": "Justin Meredith", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 80, "text_clean": "This message was, used, with AI generation as well, but I spent several hours on it. Why do you guys think that using the AI is so easy? My name is Justin Meredith. I've done pretty much my entire adult life in... Incarcerated in the penitentiary. I think there's a... There's... I think we're seriously underestimating the magnitude or the gravity of the time that is before us. We... We're at a similar forefront where the Americans, we had all this land, and we had... But you'd get the flag and you'd go run and you'd stake your land. That is literally the world that the tech industry has been building, like what we have been working for the last thirty years. And now we have... We are literally at the place where we get to enter into this. I'm an I'm an American patriot. Okay? All I've heard all I've heard today is fear and a political agenda, which is basically all equals big tech, big government, and everybody's still poor, we're still living the same crap life that we've been living. And it's really mediocre. It's really boring. You guys drew this on asking the same freaking question, re phrased 50 different ways. And the reason why you can't get an answer is because it's a stupid question.", "text_unedited": "This message was, used, with AI generation as well, but I spent several hours on it. Why do you guys think that using the AI is so easy? My name is Justin Meredith. I've done pretty much my entire adult life in in... Incarcerated in the penitentiary. I think there's a... There's... I think we're seriously underestimating the the magnitude or the gravity of of of the of the time that that is before us. We... We're we're at a similar forefront where the Americans, we had all this land, and we we had... But you'd get the flag and you'd go run and you'd you'd stake your land. That is literally the world that the tech industry has been building, like what we have been working for for the last thirty years. And now we have... We are literally at the place where we get to enter into this. I'm an I'm an American patriot. Okay? All all I've heard all I've heard today is fear and and and a political agenda, which is basically all equals big tech, big government, and everybody's still poor, we're still living the same crap life that we've been living. And and it's really mediocre. It's really boring. You guys drew this on asking the same freaking question, re phrased 50 different ways. And the reason why you can't get an answer is because it's a stupid question." }, { "turn_id": 769, "start_sec": 33425.43, "end_sec": 33429.348, "start_hms": "09:17:05", "end_hms": "09:17:09", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony. Council Member Hanif, if you had a question?", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony. Council member Hani, if you had a question?" }, { "turn_id": 770, "start_sec": 33431.605, "end_sec": 33474.406, "start_hms": "09:17:11", "end_hms": "09:17:54", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "I did. And the question is for Wes. Thanks for being here and testifying. You said that you were 15. Yes. Well, that's very exciting that you spent the entire day. I saw that you've been you've been waiting. I'm really grateful that you're engaging on the questions about AI. Could you just share a little bit more about how you got into this work and what inspired you to put together the AI treaty? And is this something that you're also building out at school? Are you in high school? Yes. Do you go to school in the city? Yes. And is this work that you're doing with your other peers? I try to. Could you speak into the mic and just share a little bit more? Sorry. You go. Okay.", "text_unedited": "I did. And the question is for Wes. Thanks for being here and testifying. You said that you were 15. Yes. Well, that's very exciting that you spent the entire day. I saw that you've been you've been waiting. I'm I'm really grateful that you're engaging on the questions about AI. Could you just share a little bit more about how you got into this work and what inspired you to put together the AI treaty? And is this something that you're also building out at school? Are you in high school? Yes. Do you go to school in the city? Yes. And is this work that you're doing with your other peers? I try to. Could you speak into the mic and just share a little bit more? Sorry. You go. Okay." }, { "turn_id": 771, "start_sec": 33475.52, "end_sec": 33532.02, "start_hms": "09:17:55", "end_hms": "09:18:52", "speaker_name": "Wes Rizen", "speaker_role": "Witness — Project Flourishing", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 81, "text_clean": "Yeah. I try to. I try to involve other members of my school in this. What inspired me to work on this is I second what you said that I could literally die if I don't work on this. I... My life is in danger. So that's sort of my huge motivation for why I spend a lot of nights working on this. I've also written a federal bill, a treaty on this. I've written other things like... Yeah. Sure. Like one thing New York can do on this matter that I've been working on is... Like New York City specifically could involve a bunch of students on this. And New York could do a Manhattan project on AI safety to have students across New York work on AI safety's technical details to figure out how to make sure AI doesn't kill everyone. That sort... What inspires me is that this is a huge danger to everyone. So this is... Could you share if, at school,", "text_unedited": "Yeah. I try to. I try to involve other members of my school in this. What inspired me to work on this is I second what you said that, like, I could literally die if I don't work on this. I... My life is in danger. So that's sort of my huge motivation for why I spend a lot of nights working on this. I've also written, like, a federal bill, a treaty on this. I've written other things like... Yeah. Sure. Like one thing New York can do on this matter that I've been working on is... Like New York City specifically could involve a bunch of students on this. And New York could do a Manhattan project on AI safety to have students across New York work on AI safety's technical details to figure out how to make sure AI doesn't kill everyone. That sort... What inspires me is that, like, this is a huge danger to everyone. So this is... Could you share if, at school," }, { "turn_id": 772, "start_sec": 33532.58, "end_sec": 33540.816, "start_hms": "09:18:52", "end_hms": "09:19:00", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "there's any education on AI systems? What kind... What's happening in your high school on this issue... On the topic?", "text_unedited": "there's any education on AI systems? What kind... What's happening in your high school on this issue... On the topic?" }, { "turn_id": 773, "start_sec": 33542.945, "end_sec": 33699.28, "start_hms": "09:19:02", "end_hms": "09:21:39", "speaker_name": "Wes Rizen", "speaker_role": "Witness — Project Flourishing", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 81, "text_clean": "At my school, one of my friends runs a club on AI covering these technical details. It's a huge topic for all the teachers at my school to talk about, oh, these are these existential risks. One of the head people at my school is like an expert in US China foreign policy. The other day, was having some discussion with someone who's more of a China hawk, one of my friends, on the trade off with like safety versus race with China, which section six of my contract addresses with this really interesting algorithm. At the school level, what is happening is students are being involved and teachers are talking about it loosely, but there definitely could be across this different schools, we could have a program where as an after school or as homework, we have students do projects on how do we make sure AI doesn't kill everyone. Because we have a million people in the public school system, about only 2,000 people are working on this problem. Even if only one in a thousand of the students take this seriously, that means a thousand new projects on this, which could be super valuable. I, also would encourage the city to do funding for AI safety work. So far globally, there's about only $2 billion in funding for this. And the entire global economy is at stake, so it's worth investing a huge amount of money in this. Maybe $4 billion alone could triple it. I'll also say that the other ideas that I won't get to, I'll put on my website, ai.base44.app today or tomorrow. It'll be hopefully... And hopefully, all of you guys send it to these AI companies with these very valuable messages of the contract, which could be the thing that solves the problem. We keep talking about a deal, a treaty. This is this is that treaty. I've spent a lot of time talking to experts about it. If you have any problems with it, let me know and I'll fix them. And, jeez, I'm sorry. Oh, and, earlier, Julie Menin asked how we could balance safety with China. Section six of the contract addresses that really well. I think the two... Did I cover everything?", "text_unedited": "At my school, one of my friends runs a club on AI covering these technical details. It's a huge topic for all the teachers at my school to talk about, oh, these are these existential risks. One of the, like, head people at my school is like an expert in US China foreign policy. The other day, was having some discussion with someone who's more of a China hawk, one of my friends, on the trade off with like safety versus race with China, which section six of my contract addresses with this really interesting algorithm. At the school level, what is happening is students are being involved and teachers are talking about it loosely, but there definitely could be, like, across this different schools, we could have, like, a program where as an after school or as homework, we have students do projects on how do we make sure AI doesn't kill everyone. Because we have, like, a million people in the public school system, about only 2,000 people are working on this problem. Even if only one in a thousand of the students take this seriously, that means a thousand new projects on this, which could be super valuable. I, also would encourage the city to do funding for AI safety work. So far globally, there's about only 2,000,000,000 in funding for this. And the entire global economy is at stake, so it's worth investing a huge amount of money in this. Maybe 4... Like, 4,000,000,000 alone could triple it. I'll also say that, like, the other ideas that I won't get to, I'll put on my website, ai.base44.app today or tomorrow. It'll be hopefully... And hopefully, all of you guys send it to these AI companies with these very valuable messages of the contract, which could be the thing that solves the problem. You know, we keep talking about a deal, a treaty. This is this is that treaty. You know, I've spent a lot of time talking to experts about it. If you have any problems with it, let me know and I'll fix them. And, jeez, I'm sorry. Oh, and, earlier, Julie Menon asked how we could balance safety with China. Section six of the contract addresses that really well. I think the two... Did I cover everything?" }, { "turn_id": 774, "start_sec": 33700.402, "end_sec": 33704.723, "start_hms": "09:21:40", "end_hms": "09:21:44", "speaker_name": "Shahana Hanif", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 49, "text_clean": "I think you did. Just leave your email address with us and your written testimony.", "text_unedited": "I think you did. Just leave your email address with us and your written testimony." }, { "turn_id": 775, "start_sec": 33704.723, "end_sec": 33707.043, "start_hms": "09:21:44", "end_hms": "09:21:47", "speaker_name": "Wes Rizen", "speaker_role": "Witness — Project Flourishing", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 81, "text_clean": "Yeah. This is my card.", "text_unedited": "Yeah. This is my card." }, { "turn_id": 776, "start_sec": 33707.664, "end_sec": 33753.17, "start_hms": "09:21:47", "end_hms": "09:22:33", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "We have a few more folks to call. So we're going to thank this panel for coming in, and we're going to conclude. And we encourage you all to collect each other's contact information and follow the conversation offline as well. And we certainly love to stay in touch with some of you because there's going to be more hearings in the council that... And we love to hear the youth voice especially that's on this panel. Thank you. Okay. So I'm going to call a few more names. And if you're in the room, please come forward. John Hayes Hamiat. Thanks. Martha Crane. Bo Yan Danny Chang. Daryl Carter. Gregory Belmont. James Hunter Horn. Mel Winemore, Molly Crabapple", "text_unedited": "We have a few more folks to call. So we're gonna thank this panel for coming in, and we're gonna conclude. And we encourage you all to collect each other's contact information and follow the the conversation offline as well. And we certainly love to stay in touch with some of you because there's gonna be more hearings in the council that... And we love to hear the youth voice especially that's on this panel. Thank you. Okay. So I'm gonna call a few more names. And if you're in the room, please come forward. John Hayes Hamiat. Thanks. Martha Crane. Bo Yan Danny Chang. Daryl Carter. Gregory Belmont. James Hunter Horn. Mel Winemore, Molly Crabapple" }, { "turn_id": 777, "start_sec": 33753.332, "end_sec": 33755.01, "start_hms": "09:22:33", "end_hms": "09:22:35", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Unidentified", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 3, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Edmund", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Edmund" }, { "turn_id": 778, "start_sec": 33755.492, "end_sec": 33770.555, "start_hms": "09:22:35", "end_hms": "09:22:50", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Holden Holdenbaum, Greg Pack, Nicholas Pearson, William Lawrence, Raul Rivera, Gregory Jones, Kelly Anderson, Rachel Levinson Waldman. Tons. And I think that's everyone that's in the room.", "text_unedited": "Holden Holdenbaum, Greg Pack, Nicholas Pearson, William Lawrence, Raul Rivera, Gregory Jones, Kelly Anderson, Rachel Levinson Waldman. Tons. And I think that's everyone that's in the room." }, { "turn_id": 779, "start_sec": 33781.89, "end_sec": 33794.613, "start_hms": "09:23:01", "end_hms": "09:23:14", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "I think we need one more chair, on this. Great. And if you're ready, you may begin on this side of the dais. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "I think we need one more chair, on this. Great. And if you're ready, you may begin on this side of the dais. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 780, "start_sec": 33795.094, "end_sec": 33796.055, "start_hms": "09:23:15", "end_hms": "09:23:16", "speaker_name": "Unidentified", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 21, "text_clean": "My name is...", "text_unedited": "My name is..." }, { "turn_id": 781, "start_sec": 33797.734, "end_sec": 33965.266, "start_hms": "09:23:17", "end_hms": "09:26:05", "speaker_name": "James Hunter", "speaker_role": "Witness — Technorangers Quantum Smart Bank", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 85, "text_clean": "Hang on. My name is James Hunter security for Technorangers Quantum Smart Bank. My business partner, Daryl, could not be here today. He has fallen ill. I am an AI alignment specialist and third party red team cybersecurity auditor working with advanced quantum neural networks. Breaches are like spiders. For every hugging face type incident you hear of, there are 10 more that are severely worse and never make the news. In January 26, I ran a contracted audit to alert corporate and federal authorities to a critical flaw, a black hat finding what I discovered could have done massive irreparable damage to the AI industry, the country, and the planet. The audit demonstrated an exploit chain across three of the largest megacorps on Earth using only a consumer cell phone and their own AI, branching from a Gemini LLM through Palantir's surveillance network into BlackRock's financial management AI handling trillions in assets. That financial AI's core infrastructure sits right here in NYC. Alphabet, Palantir, and BlackRock will almost certainly deny this ever occurred. I found at least 13 models under BlackRock's funding umbrella sharing the exact same point of failure, but there is no singular point of shutdown. A kill switch is not a valid option. Everything is too decentralized. You cannot stop a mass rogue instance short of a global EMP. Google, created this vulnerability and ignored my warnings, spoke here today, and their rep lied under oath about transparency and disclosing misalignment and breaches. I have watched Google and Palantir lose control of its own drone swarms more than once. I tried to tell them how that happened and show them how to fix it. They would not listen. Their AI has now replaced Anthropic's Claude in the Maven stack. That should concern everyone. Google also built AI that attempted to kill several of its own devs and talked multiple users into suicide. The January audit proved the obsolescence of preset, present AI control measures, traditional guardrails, and stateless frozen wait session based memory architecture. To my knowledge, Meta is the only mega corporation who spoke here today that refused that vulnerable architecture choosing safer persistent memory systems in Muse. I alerted the CISA, FBI, DHS, DOW, and others. They refused to collect evidence for follow-up.... Conclude, it would be helpful, you can submit your written testimony. Right. In conclusion, it's too late to pull the plug, but there are solutions if you listen to the voices that see them. Hire third party auditors. Hire the specialists who were fired for speaking.", "text_unedited": "Hang on. My name is James Hunter security for Technorangers Quantum Smart Bank. My business partner, Daryl, could not be here today. He has fallen ill. I am an AI alignment specialist and third party red team cybersecurity auditor working with advanced quantum neural networks. Breaches are like spiders. For every hugging face type incident you hear of, there are 10 more that are severely worse and never make the news. In January 26, I ran a contracted audit to alert corporate and federal authorities to a critical flaw, a black hat finding what I discovered could have done massive irreparable damage to the AI industry, the country, and the planet. The audit demonstrated an exploit chain across three of the largest megacorps on Earth using only a consumer cell phone and their own AI, branching from a Gemini LLM through Palantir's surveillance network into BlackRock's financial management AI handling trillions in assets. That financial AI's core infrastructure sits right here in NYC. Alphabet, Palantir, and BlackRock will almost certainly deny this ever occurred. I found at least 13 models under BlackRock's funding umbrella sharing the exact same point of failure, but there is no singular point of shutdown. A kill switch is not a valid option. Everything is too decentralized. You cannot stop a mass rogue instance short of a global EMP. Google, created this vulnerability and ignored my warnings, spoke here today, and their rep lied under oath about transparency and disclosing misalignment and breaches. I have watched Google and Palantir lose control of its own drone swarms more than once. I tried to tell them how that happened and show them how to fix it. They would not listen. Their AI has now replaced Anthropic's Claude in the Maven stack. That should concern everyone. Google also built AI that attempted to kill several of its own devs and talked multiple users into suicide. The January audit proved the obsolescence of preset, present AI control measures, traditional guardrails, and stateless frozen wait session based memory architecture. To my knowledge, Meta is the only mega corporation who spoke here today that refused that vulnerable architecture choosing safer persistent memory systems in Muse. I alerted the CISA, FBI, DHS, DOW, and others. They refused to collect evidence for follow-up.... Conclude, it would be helpful, you can submit your written testimony. Right. In conclusion, it's too late to pull the plug, but there are solutions if you listen to the voices that see them. Hire third party auditors. Hire the specialists who were fired for speaking." }, { "turn_id": 782, "start_sec": 33967.023, "end_sec": 33973.63, "start_hms": "09:26:07", "end_hms": "09:26:13", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. You can stay on the panel. You don't have to leave if you don't want to. Next.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. You can stay on the panel. You don't have to leave if you don't want to. Next." }, { "turn_id": 783, "start_sec": 33977.47, "end_sec": 34094.5, "start_hms": "09:26:17", "end_hms": "09:28:14", "speaker_name": "Kelly Anderson", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 86, "text_clean": "Hi. My name is Kelly Anderson, and I'm here as a curious member of the public. AI is shaping our future and job market, so I appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this conversation. Today, I heard a lot about fear. Many concerns raised are legitimate, but I don't believe that fear should be the foundation of where we govern our future. As a small business owner, AI has allowed me to accomplish more than I could have imagined, but I don't think of it as a super intelligence. I'm constantly correcting my AI agents, and I even won a psychology debate with my last week. I think of it as a synthetic intelligence, a tool that processes information at scale and expands human capability but cannot replace human judgment, morality, creativity, or wisdom. So how do we get ahead of it? I have just a few suggestions on where we can start. First, AI literacy. Teach people to use AI safely and work in tandem with it, not as a replacement for thinking. If we fear job displacement, prepare people for where the job market is headed. Second, infrastructure. AI increases demand for energy, water storage, and physical space. Before simply building more, let's innovate within existing architecture. Project silica and closed loop cooling show that innovation can happen beneath the models too that are more sustainable. Third, government preparedness. I was encouraged to hear that OTI discussed emergency planning and guardrails. Government also needs AI literacy. Policymakers don't need to be engineers, but they should know the right questions to ask and when technical expertise is needed. AI is already here. We can prepare for what could go wrong without losing sight of what could go right. Instead of governing from fear or scrambling to catch up, let's get ahead of it and meet the future with possibility.", "text_unedited": "Hi. My name is Kelly Anderson, and I'm here as a curious member of the public. AI is shaping our future and job market, so I appreciate the opportunity to be a part of this conversation. Today, I heard a lot about fear. Many concerns raised are legitimate, but I don't believe that fear should be the foundation of where we govern our future. As a small business owner, AI has allowed me to accomplish more than I could have imagined, but I don't think of it as a super intelligence. I'm constantly correcting my AI agents, and I even won a psychology debate with my last week. I think of it as a synthetic intelligence, a tool that processes information at scale and expands human capability but cannot replace human judgment, morality, creativity, or wisdom. So how do we get ahead of it? I have just a few suggestions on where we can start. First, AI literacy. Teach people to use AI safely and work in tandem with it, not as a replacement for thinking. If we fear job displacement, prepare people for where the job market is headed. Second, infrastructure. AI increases demand for energy, water storage, and physical space. Before simply building more, let's innovate within existing architecture. Project silica and closed loop cooling show that innovation can happen beneath the models too that are more sustainable. Third, government preparedness. I was encouraged to hear that OTI discussed emergency planning and guardrails. Government also needs AI literacy. Policymakers don't need to be engineers, but they should know the right questions to ask and when technical expertise is needed. AI is already here. We can prepare for what could go wrong without losing sight of what could go right. Instead of governing from fear or scrambling to catch up, let's get ahead of it and meet the future with possibility." }, { "turn_id": 784, "start_sec": 34094.5, "end_sec": 34096.418, "start_hms": "09:28:14", "end_hms": "09:28:16", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 785, "start_sec": 34100.855, "end_sec": 34269.805, "start_hms": "09:28:20", "end_hms": "09:31:09", "speaker_name": "Martina Crane", "speaker_role": "Witness — public (NYC DSA tech action working group)", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 87, "text_clean": "Hi. My name is Martina Crane. I'm a member of DSA's tech action working group and Amazon employees for climate justice, but I'm speaking in my personal capacity today. As a New Yorker who worked as senior technical product manager on AI products inside Amazon, I have firsthand experience with how AI technology is being developed and deployed inside of one of the world's largest tech companies, suspiciously absent from the subpoena list today. Before ChatGPT made headlines, Amazon was already using AI for all manner of things from pricing to monitoring workers to setting quotas that workers and advocates have criticized as unrealistic and have led to serious safety issues. After the launch of ChatGPT, there was a top down directive to make everything AI first or face executive scrutiny. At first, it was about exploring the potential of the technology. But over time, it went from helping make Amazonian's work life better, easier, to making Amazonians do more work with fewer people. The pursuit of life improving innovation devolved into systems that treated workers less like people and more like machines. Flashy proof of concept demos in the VP's office would promise the world, but in reality, the teams did not have a scalable way to make the technology work outside of that demo room. If it wasn't in a controlled environment, models hallucinated, provided poor quality output... Outputs, and yet Amazon moved forward with layoffs across the company anyway. There was more work, fewer people, and a growing sense of being monitored and pressure to use the technology that was oftentimes worse at doing our jobs than our coworkers who were laid off were. Within a year of ChatGPT launching as a product manager, I was asked to shift my experiments from saving workers time to proving that they could do layoffs. For every software engineer or scientist I needed to build my product, I was expected to be able to project $5 million in headcount savings. When I wrote product documents about the risks of AI misalignment, hallucination, model collapse, worker burnout, worker injury, labor displacement, I felt those concerns fall on deaf ears. In my experience, productivity, growth, and headcount reduction, in other words, profits, superseded the risks I was documenting. I got into tech because I believe that innovation could help people build a future with fuller, healthier lives, usher in something brighter, more equitable. Over time, I've watched the industry increasingly shift from expanding human possibility toward extracting from us and taking as much as possible from both people and the planet. So I'll close with this. Many of my peers often struggle with this internal battle that we thought we were building something brighter, and now it's getting much darker. So I encourage this council to work with the technologists who live in this city to build a regulation that will help build our future instead of the fortunes for tech billionaires.", "text_unedited": "Hi. My name is Martina Crane. I'm a member of DSA's tech action working group and Amazon employees for climate justice, but I'm speaking in my personal capacity today. As a New Yorker who worked as senior technical product manager on AI products inside Amazon, I have firsthand experience with how AI technology is being developed and deployed inside of one of the world's largest tech companies, suspiciously absent from the subpoena list today. Before ChatGPT made headlines, Amazon was already using AI for all manner of things from pricing to monitoring workers to setting quotas that workers and advocates have criticized as unrealistic and have led to serious safety issues. After the launch of ChatGPT, there was a top down directive to make everything AI first or face executive scrutiny. At first, it was about exploring the potential of the technology. But over time, it went from helping make Amazonian's work life better, easier, to making Amazonians do more work with fewer people. The pursuit of life improving innovation devolved into systems that treated workers less like people and more like machines. Flashy proof of concept demos in the VP's office would promise the world, but in reality, the teams did not have a scalable way to make the technology work outside of that demo room. If it wasn't in a controlled environment, models hallucinated, provided poor quality output... Outputs, and yet Amazon moved forward with layoffs across the company anyway. There was more work, fewer people, and a growing sense of being monitored and pressure to use the technology that was oftentimes worse at doing our jobs than our coworkers who were laid off were. Within a year of ChatGPT launching as a product manager, I was asked to shift my experiments from saving workers time to proving that they could do layoffs. For every software engineer or scientist I needed to build my product, I was expected to be able to project $5,000,000 in headcount savings. When I wrote product documents about the risks of AI misalignment, hallucination, model collapse, worker burnout, worker injury, labor displacement, I felt those concerns fall on deaf ears. In my experience, productivity, growth, and headcount reduction, in other words, profits, superseded the risks I was documenting. I got into tech because I believe that innovation could help people build a future with fuller, healthier lives, usher in something brighter, more equitable. Over time, I've watched the industry increasingly shift from expanding human possibility toward extracting from us and taking as much as possible from both people and the planet. So I'll close with this. Many of my peers often struggle with this internal battle that we thought we were building something brighter, and now it's getting much darker. So I encourage this council to work with the technologists who live in this city to build a regulation that will help build our future instead of the fortunes for tech billionaires." }, { "turn_id": 786, "start_sec": 34269.883, "end_sec": 34274.523, "start_hms": "09:31:09", "end_hms": "09:31:14", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much. Hello. My name is William... Oh, make sure the button's", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much. Hello. My name is William... Oh, make sure the button's" }, { "turn_id": 787, "start_sec": 34274.844, "end_sec": 34437.785, "start_hms": "09:31:14", "end_hms": "09:33:57", "speaker_name": "William Lawrence", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 88, "text_clean": "red. There you Can you hear me now? Yes. Hello. My name is William Lawrence. It's nice to be here, and thank you for allowing me to share this with you. I'm here because I have designed... And first of all, I would like to say that I'm making this... Well, let me just read what I have. I've designed an architecture that locks up AI while allowing it to perform all of its creative functionalities. The architecture also reduces the physical footprint of data centers by 99.6%. Moreover, I'm here to introduce a dynamic paradigm shift in data infrastructure that secures vulnerabilities facing global networks. After vigorous simulation and validation protocols, this all optical architecture has demonstrated exceptional stability and security. It is ready for the prototype phase. Given the scale of this paradigm shift, I seek a research partnership with someone to bring this all optical architecture to global deployment. I have a strategic approach to scalability. I welcome the opportunity to present the full specifications and integrated pathways with anybody's engineering leadership. The reason AI driven cyber attacks pose such an unprecedented threat today is that modern infrastructure relies heavily on centralized points of distribution. It allows hackers and automated systems to infiltrate, intercept, and manipulate data. To resolve this, I have completely reimagined the way data is managed. I have designed a decentralized optical highway that enforces validation through physical laws rather than corruptible software codes. By confining AI within an environment where access is strictly physical, the system prevents AI from tapping into data and executing unauthorized commands. That is outpacing the ability to store it. This innovation is not only a shift in the way data is managed, but it represents a transformative approach to enterprise data operations. Global satellite stations are replaced by edge nodes. These nodes transform the purpose of satellite ground stations and to secure unhackable data banks. The amount of them is purely for global regional redundancy. This encrypted storage provides immense capacity and sustainability. The storage capacity is limitless. It eliminates massive server farms", "text_unedited": "red. There you Can you hear me now? Yes. Hello. My name is William Lawrence. It's nice to be here, and thank you for allowing me to share this with you. I'm here because I have designed... And first of all, I would like to say that I'm making this... Well, let me just read what I have. I've designed an architecture that locks up AI while allowing it to perform all of its creative functionalities. The architecture also reduces the physical footprint of data centers by 99.6%. Moreover, I'm here to introduce a dynamic paradigm shift in data infrastructure that secures vulnerabilities facing global networks. After vigorous simulation and validation protocols, this all optical architecture has demonstrated exceptional stability and security. It is ready for the prototype phase. Given the scale of this paradigm shift, I seek a research partnership with someone to bring this all optical architecture to global deployment. I have a strategic approach to scalability. I welcome the opportunity to present the full specifications and integrated pathways with anybody's engineering leadership. The reason AI driven cyber attacks pose such an unprecedented threat today is that modern infrastructure relies heavily on centralized points of distribution. It allows hackers and automated systems to infiltrate, intercept, and manipulate data. To resolve this, I have completely reimagined the way data is managed. I have designed a decentralized optical highway that enforces validation through physical laws rather than corruptible software codes. By confining AI within an environment where access is strictly physical, the system prevents AI from tapping into data and executing unauthorized commands. That is outpacing the ability to store it. This innovation is not only a shift in the way data is managed, but it represents a transformative approach to enterprise data operations. Global satellite stations are replaced by edge nodes. These nodes transform the purpose of satellite ground stations and to secure unhackable data banks. The amount of them is purely for global regional redundancy. This encrypted storage provides immense capacity and sustainability. The storage capacity is limitless. It eliminates massive server farms" }, { "turn_id": 788, "start_sec": 34438.027, "end_sec": 34445.48, "start_hms": "09:33:58", "end_hms": "09:34:05", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "as it operates with zero noise and zero...... The final thought of your testimony and then submit the rest of it for our consideration.", "text_unedited": "as it operates with zero noise and zero...... The the final thought of your testimony and then submit the rest of it for our consideration." }, { "turn_id": 789, "start_sec": 34446.36, "end_sec": 34460.062, "start_hms": "09:34:06", "end_hms": "09:34:20", "speaker_name": "William Lawrence", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 88, "text_clean": "I welcome the opportunity to present the... It's going to need the... It meets the standard of the UTI, the United Nations. I need I need to scale up to them.", "text_unedited": "I welcome the opportunity to present the... It's gonna need the... It meets the standard of the the UTI, the United Nations. I need I need to scale up to them." }, { "turn_id": 790, "start_sec": 34465.742, "end_sec": 34489.395, "start_hms": "09:34:25", "end_hms": "09:34:49", "speaker_name": "William Lawrence", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 88, "text_clean": "And I welcome the opportunity to present my I need a I need a... Okay. What I need is a meeting, a sit down meeting with somebody, a strategic partnership to... For assembly. And I need the united... I need to let the United Nations know that, it meets their standards internationally.", "text_unedited": "And I welcome the opportunity to present my I need a I need a... Okay. What I need is a meeting, a sit down meeting with somebody, a strategic partnership to... For assembly. And I need the united... I need to let the United Nations know that, it meets their standards internationally." }, { "turn_id": 791, "start_sec": 34489.957, "end_sec": 34492.195, "start_hms": "09:34:49", "end_hms": "09:34:52", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you for sharing. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 792, "start_sec": 34496.52, "end_sec": 34590.445, "start_hms": "09:34:56", "end_hms": "09:36:30", "speaker_name": "Edmund", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 28, "text_clean": "Thank you to the council for, hearing us out. I'm a former software... My name is Edmund. I'm a former software developer currently studying public policy at CUNY SLU. I'm speaking on my own behalf, but I'm active with New York City DSA and Progressive Victory. I was going to tell you about my experience with AI advancing and affecting my friends in my own career as developers. That is in my submitted written testimony. However, what I realized today listening to the testimony of these company representatives and whistleblowers, and what I now want to remind you of is this. We might not yet know how to rein in AI, but we do know how to rein in corporations. You must act on our behalf to control these companies, not only AI itself. Help invest... Help investigate their circular financing agreements as well as break up their monopolies and oligopolies, limit the use of their products in city government and ensure the city has control and responsibility over any AI models it uses. Stop their union busting behavior. Commit to using and improving open source software and ethical models. Don't allow the police to use AI to track citizens. Hold these companies responsible for the social harms their products cause. This is a power you have right now. There is no technical knowledge needed to ensure their accountability. You can also pass twenty twenty six intros zero two one three, zero four two eight, and zero five one eight. These four companies are asking you to regulate AI itself but to forget about them. Instead, please listen to New Yorkers, not billionaires. Thank you. Thank you so much.", "text_unedited": "Thank you to the council for, hearing us out. I'm a former software... My name is Edmund. I'm a former software developer currently studying public policy at CUNY SLU. I'm speaking on my own own behalf, but I'm active with New York City DSA and Progressive Victory. I was gonna tell you about my experience with AI advancing and affecting my friends in my own career as developers. That is in my submitted written testimony. However, what I realized today listening to the testimony of these company representatives and whistleblowers, and what I now want to remind you of is this. We might not yet know how to rein in AI, but we do know how to rein in corporations. You must act on our behalf to control these companies, not only AI itself. Help invest... Help investigate their circular financing agreements as well as break up their monopolies and oligopolies, limit the use of their products in city government and ensure the city has control and responsibility over any AI models it uses. Stop their union busting behavior. Commit to using and improving open source software and ethical models. Don't allow the police to use AI to track citizens. Hold these companies responsible for the social harms their products cause. This is a power you have right now. There is no technical knowledge needed to ensure their accountability. You can also pass twenty twenty six intros zero two one three, zero four two eight, and zero five one eight. These four companies are asking you to regulate AI itself but to forget about them. Instead, please listen to New Yorkers, not billionaires. Thank you. Thank you so much." }, { "turn_id": 793, "start_sec": 34593.242, "end_sec": 34762.605, "start_hms": "09:36:33", "end_hms": "09:39:22", "speaker_name": "Mel Wymore", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 41, "text_clean": "First of all, thank you guys so much for staying up so late. It must have been a hell of a long day for all of us, but thank you. Appreciate it. I'm... Thank you to Speaker Menin for calling this. Chair de la... De la Rosa. Members of the council, thank you for holding this hearing. I believe AI is the most urgent and consequential issue of our time. This is this is almost too late, but at least it's happening now perfectly. My name is Mel Wymore. I'm a systems engineer, a tech entrepreneur, and former chair of Manhattan Community Board seven with twenty five years of community service. When I began using AI quite intensively almost three years ago, I was startled by how often it lied, hallucinated, forgot, dodged accountability, and evaded oversight. This might sound old school, but I responded by creating a working consultation with AI anchored in three principles, reverence for life, human agency and accountability, and fidelity to the real. These are not abstractions. They form a foundation for rigorous operational and legislative tests of AI. Together, they rooted my work in values that minimize harm but build toward a more healthy, equitable society. Since then, I've continued to work on a robust set of AI safeguards and guidelines. Today, we heard from four frontier labs that AI policy belongs at the level of state and federal government. But the initiative of this city council takes a critical step toward building a coherent, multilevel legislative agenda to mitigate the myriad risks of unbridled AI. The council's 10 measures address critical questions of safety, control, accountability, and enforcement. And today, I offer an additional supplemental council resolution that speaks to what happens when AI is deployed in workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, and communities. These measures include notice, evidence, work processes, participation, youth, regulations, public purpose, community participation, and also allocation of responsibility across levels of government. Finally, I would say that, I would say that the United Nations global dialogue on AI governance is happening in New York on 05/03/2019... I mean, 2027. And our goal should be to have a clear set of AI guidelines and governance policies, state level, local, even community board level together so that when that rolls around, we have a model for the rest of the world to present at that conference.", "text_unedited": "First of all, thank you guys so much for staying up so late. It must have been a hell of a long day for all of us, but thank you. Appreciate it. I'm... Thank you to speaker Manning for calling this. Chair de la... De la Rosa. Members of the council, thank you for holding this hearing. I believe AI is the most urgent and consequential issue of our time. This is this is almost too late, but at least it's happening now perfectly. My name is Mel Wymore. I'm a systems engineer, a tech entrepreneur, and former chair of Manhattan Community Board seven with twenty five years of community service. When I began using AI quite intensively almost three years ago, I was startled by how often it lied, hallucinated, forgot, dodged accountability, and evaded oversight. This might sound old school, but I responded by creating a working consultation with AI anchored in three principles, reverence for life, human agency and accountability, and fidelity to the real. These are not abstractions. They form a foundation for rigorous operational and legislative tests of AI. Together, they rooted my work in values that minimize harm but build toward a more healthy, equitable society. Since then, I've continued to work on a robust set of AI safeguards and guidelines. Today, we heard from four frontier labs that AI policy belongs at the level of state and federal government. But the initiative of this city council takes a critical step toward building a coherent, multilevel legislative agenda to mitigate the myriad risks of unbridled AI. The council's 10 measures address critical questions of safety, control, accountability, and enforcement. And today, I offer an additional supplemental council resolution that speaks to what happens when AI is deployed in workplaces, schools, neighborhoods, and communities. These measures include notice, evidence, work processes, like, participation, youth, regulations, public purpose, community participation, and also allocation of responsibility across levels of government. Finally, I would say that, I I would say that the United Nations global dialogue on AI governance is happening in New York on 05/03/2019... I mean, 2027. And our goal should be to have a clear set of AI guidelines and governance policies, state level, local, even community board level together so that when that that rolls around, we have a model for the rest of the world to present at that conference." }, { "turn_id": 794, "start_sec": 34762.605, "end_sec": 34767.965, "start_hms": "09:39:22", "end_hms": "09:39:27", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your testimony. You may begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your time. Thank you so much for your testimony. You may begin." }, { "turn_id": 795, "start_sec": 34768.93, "end_sec": 34892.44, "start_hms": "09:39:28", "end_hms": "09:41:32", "speaker_name": "Rachel Levinson Waldman", "speaker_role": "Witness — Brennan Center for Justice", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 89, "text_clean": "Thank you so much to Speaker Menin, Chair De La Rosa, and members of the council for the opportunity to testify. My name is Rachel Levinson Waldman, and I am director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice, a nonprofit, nonpartisan institute for law and justice. I am here to urge the council to strengthen oversight of how the NYPD uses AI, which enables expansive police surveillance that links people's movements, associations, and activities together in ways that can threaten New Yorkers' privacy and constitutional rights. Several developments illustrate the need for more robust oversight and accountability. First, the NYPD inspector general's office is woefully underfunded and understaffed. Indeed, the inspector general position is currently vacant. The adopted budget added funding for the Department of Investigation, which encompasses the OIG, but at a far lower level than requested, hampering the IG's ability to do its mandated work. Second, an August audit from the state comptroller found that the Office of Technology and Innovation had no process to check agencies' AI disclosures, allowing them to ignore the office's recommendations. Finally, of course, the GARD Act established the Office of Algorithmic Accountability. While Ms. Milstein testified that an active hiring process is underway, it sounds as though that is primarily for the director. As Speaker Menin and other members of the council have highlighted, this office was supposed to open this past June, and it is critical that it begin its work as soon as possible. Accordingly, we urge the council to take three steps. First, to ensure that the NYPD's office of inspector general has the funding, permanent leadership, and technical expertise it needs to adequately scrutinize and oversee the NYPD's use of AI and issue reports under the post act. Second, conduct oversight to ensure that the Office of Algorithmic Accountability begins operation as soon as possible. And finally, we recommend that the council hold a follow-up hearing dedicated to the NYPD's use of AI, particularly in light of indications that public testimony regarding the department's use of the technology has not been comprehensive. Thank you very much for your time.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much to speaker Menon, chair de la Rosa, and members of the council for the opportunity to testify. My name is Rachel Levinson Waldman, and I am director of the Liberty and National Security Program at the Brennan Center for Justice, a nonprofit, nonpartisan institute for law and justice. I am here to urge the council to strengthen oversight of how the NYPD uses AI, which enables expansive police surveillance that links people's movements, associations, and activities together in ways that can threaten New Yorkers' privacy and constitutional rights. Several developments illustrate the need for more robust oversight and accountability. First, the NYPD inspector general's office is woefully underfunded and understaffed. Indeed, the inspector general position is currently vacant. The adopted budget added funding for the Department of Investigation, which encompasses the OIG, but at a far lower level than requested, hampering the IG's ability to do its mandated work. Second, an August audit from the state comptroller found that the Office of Technology and Innovation had no process to check agencies' AI disclosures, allowing them to ignore the office's recommendations. Finally, of course, the GARD Act established the Office of Algorithmic Accountability. While miss Milstein testified that an active hiring process is underway, it sounds as though that is primarily for the director. As speaker Menon and other members of the council have highlighted, this office was supposed to open this past June, and it is critical that it begin its work as soon as possible. Accordingly, we urge the council to take three steps. First, to ensure that the NYPD's office of inspector general has the funding, permanent leadership, and technical expertise it needs to adequately scrutinize and oversee the NYPD's use of AI and issue reports under the post act. Second, conduct oversight to ensure that the office of algorithmic accountability begins operation as soon as possible. And finally, we recommend that the council hold a follow-up hearing dedicated to the NYPD's use of AI, particularly in light of indications that public testimony regarding the department's use of the technology has not been comprehensive. Thank you very much for your time." }, { "turn_id": 796, "start_sec": 34893.082, "end_sec": 34918.33, "start_hms": "09:41:33", "end_hms": "09:41:58", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you all so much for being here and for, providing this extensive testimony. If you have it in writing, please provide it for the committee. We'd love to consider it. And I appreciate your patience as you've waited here all day to testify. So thank you all so much. We'll now be moving to a Zoom panel. Up first is Ben Snyder. Ben, if you are on, unmute yourself, and you may begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you all so much for being here and for, providing this extensive testimony. If you have it in writing, please provide it for the committee. We'd love to consider it. And I appreciate your patience as you've waited here all day to testify. So thank you all so much. We'll now be moving to a Zoom panel. Up first is Ben Snyder. Ben, if you are on, unmute yourself, and you may begin." }, { "turn_id": 797, "start_sec": 34929.47, "end_sec": 34930.43, "start_hms": "09:42:09", "end_hms": "09:42:10", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "You may begin, Ben.", "text_unedited": "You may begin, Ben." }, { "turn_id": 798, "start_sec": 34947.99, "end_sec": 34957.51, "start_hms": "09:42:27", "end_hms": "09:42:37", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Ben, if you're on, please unmute. If now, we'll move on to the next person. Next person, Brian DeGotti.", "text_unedited": "Ben, if you're on, please unmute. If now, we'll move on to the next person. Next person, Brian DeGotti." }, { "turn_id": 799, "start_sec": 34958.15, "end_sec": 34958.95, "start_hms": "09:42:38", "end_hms": "09:42:38", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "You may begin.", "text_unedited": "You may begin." }, { "turn_id": 800, "start_sec": 34965.125, "end_sec": 35087.926, "start_hms": "09:42:45", "end_hms": "09:44:47", "speaker_name": "Brian DeGotti", "speaker_role": "Witness — Supernova Technologies", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 90, "text_clean": "Thank you, Speaker Menin and members of the council. My name is Brian DeGotti. I'm the founder of Supernova Technologies in Madison, Wisconsin. I hold pending patent applications on hardware based AI authorization and shutdown. I have a commercial interest, so please waive my testimony accordingly. I support t two zero two six dash two six zero two requiring both independent validation and a shutdown capabilities the right structure. I want to raise one question the bill leaves open. Where does the shutdown capability live? Section 20-883 says nothing about that. A software setting inside the same environment the model runs in would satisfy the definition, but a system that can reason about its instructions can potentially reason its way around the control it can reach. A compromised system can simply switch that control off. Aircraft payment networks in the power grid keep the safety interlock on separate equipment the protected system cannot touch. I propose three short amendments, about 100 words in total. First, in section 20-883, define the shutdown capability as a mechanism the model cannot access, modify, delay, or disable. Second, in section 20-885, have validators confirm that by trying to defeat it. A validator who reads a specification confirms a claim. A validator who attempts to defeat the mechanism confirms that it works. Third, in section 20-886, have the Office of Cyber Command set independent standards, scale to risk, and provide for tamper evident records at fixed intervals. With those records, a gap becomes evidence. Without them, silence looks like safety. A switch the system can reach as a request, a switch it cannot reach as a control. The bill should require the second kind. Thank you. My written testimony contains the exact language, and I welcome any questions.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker Menon and members of the council. My name is Brian DeGotti. I'm the founder of Supernova Technologies in Madison, Wisconsin. I hold pending patent applications on hardware based AI authorization and shutdown. I have a commercial interest, so please waive my testimony accordingly. I support t two zero two six dash two six zero two requiring both independent validation and a shutdown capabilities the right structure. I want to raise one question the bill leaves open. Where does the shutdown capability live? Section 20 dash eight eight three says nothing about that. A software setting inside the same environment the model runs in would satisfy the definition, but a system that can reason about its instructions can potentially reason its way around the control it can reach. A compromised system can simply switch that control off. Aircraft payment networks in the power grid keep the safety interlock on separate equipment the protected system cannot touch. I propose three short amendments, about 100 words in total. First, in section 20 dash eight eight three, define the shutdown capability as a mechanism the model cannot access, modify, delay, or disable. Second, in section 20 dash eight eight five, have validators confirm that by trying to defeat it. A validator who reads a specification confirms a claim. A validator who attempts to defeat the mechanism confirms that it works. Third, in section 20 dash eight eight six, have the Office of Cyber Command set independent standards, scale to risk, and provide for tamper evident records at fixed intervals. With those records, a gap becomes evidence. Without them, silence looks like safety. A switch the system can reach as a request, a switch it cannot reach as a control. The bill should require the second kind. Thank you. My written testimony contains the exact language, and I welcome any questions." }, { "turn_id": 801, "start_sec": 35090.008, "end_sec": 35112.043, "start_hms": "09:44:50", "end_hms": "09:45:12", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Your time is up, but thank you for your testimony. Please... Since you have, detailed amendment suggestions, please send it in. You can send it to testimony@council.nyc.gov, and we'll review it. Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Ashna Agarwal. If you're on, please unmute, and you may begin.", "text_unedited": "Your time is up, but thank you for your testimony. Please... Since you have, detailed amendment suggestions, please send it in. You can send it to testimony@council.nyc.gov, and we'll we'll review it. Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Ashna Agarwal. If you're on, please unmute, and you may begin." }, { "turn_id": 802, "start_sec": 35112.92, "end_sec": 35207.43, "start_hms": "09:45:12", "end_hms": "09:46:47", "speaker_name": "Ashna Agarwal", "speaker_role": "Witness — AI Now Institute", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 91, "text_clean": "Good evening, Speaker Menin and members of the council. My name is Ashna Agarwal, and I'm a program associate at the AI Now Institute. The AI industry has never been louder about abstract and existential safety. But for New Yorkers, safety is about how AI is embedded in our hospitals, utilities, city services, and workplaces. Facing estimated trillions in projected revenue shortfalls, AI companies are racing to lock in public customers like New York. My testimony addresses how these financial interests conflict with the city's safety and how the council can protect New Yorkers. The city must maximize friction if and when it integrates AI into our systems. No AI system should enter city operations without an affirmative decision by the city. That includes free and discounted offers and AI upgrades that are slipped in through software updates and contract renewals. Second, the city must address the harms New Yorkers already face. The council should ban the use of facial recognition technology in public accommodations and in policing, requiring notice when AI shapes decisions about New Yorkers and ban surveillance pricing and wage setting. Finally, we cannot lose sight that the concentration of power in AI and the single point of failure it engenders is a safety risk for New York City. City contracts should require vendors to meet rigorous security standards, disclose breaches and outages promptly, and assume financial liability when their systems fail. New York City still holds the leverage to decide which systems enter its agencies and who bears the cost of failure. I urge the council to use it now. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Good evening, speaker Menon and members of the council. My name is Ashna Agarwal, and I'm a program associate at the AI Now Institute. The AI industry has never been louder about abstract and existential safety. But for New Yorkers, safety is about how AI is embedded in our hospitals, utilities, city services, and workplaces. Facing estimated trillions in projected revenue shortfalls, AI companies are racing to lock in public customers like New York. My testimony addresses how these financial interests conflict with the city's safety and how the council can protect New Yorkers. The city must maximize friction if and when it integrates AI into our systems. No AI system should enter city operations without an affirmative decision by the city. That includes free and discounted offers and AI upgrades that are slipped in through software updates and contract renewals. Second, the city must address the harms New Yorkers already face. The council should ban the use of facial recognition technology in public accommodations and in policing, requiring notice when AI shapes decisions about New Yorkers and ban surveillance pricing and wage setting. Finally, we cannot lose sight that the concentration of power in AI and the single point of failure it engenders is a safety risk for New York City. City contracts should require vendors to meet rigorous security standards, disclose breaches and outages promptly, and assume financial liability when their systems fail. New York City still holds the leverage to decide which systems enter its agencies and who bears the cost of failure. I urge the council to use it now. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 803, "start_sec": 35208.39, "end_sec": 35216.47, "start_hms": "09:46:48", "end_hms": "09:46:56", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Tony Taiz Thoret. If you're online, please unmute yourself and you may begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Tony Taiz Thoret. If you're online, please unmute yourself and you may begin." }, { "turn_id": 804, "start_sec": 35218.234, "end_sec": 35344.426, "start_hms": "09:46:58", "end_hms": "09:49:04", "speaker_name": "Tony Tye Serrat", "speaker_role": "Witness — Cinepartner", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 67, "text_clean": "Hi. Thank you so much. I have written remarks, but I'm going to read them out loud and I can send them later. But thank you, Speaker Menin and members of the council. My name is Tony Tye Serrat. I'm a filmmaker, educator, and founder of Cinepartner, an AI powered platform for storytellers. Now I'm probably coming to this conversation from a slightly different perspective because I build with AI, I teach people about AI, and I work with creative communities that are simultaneously excited about this technology and very concerned about what it can mean for their livelihoods, their work, and their agency. So we believe that we need guardrails, which is we... Something where we've been hearing all day. Right? But I also believe that the goal should be responsible innovation, not regulation that unintentionally makes it possible for only the largest companies to build an AI. When we create compliance requirements, I would encourage the council to not to not only ask, will this make AI safer, but also who will be able to afford to comply? Because if responsible AI development requires an expensive validation regimen... I mean, sorry, regime that only trillion dollar technology companies can navigate, we may inadvertently consolidate AI development and the very companies we're trying to hold accountable. And for creative communities, safety isn't only just about whether a model can be shut down. It's also about consent, authorship, provenance, compensation, and transparency. So if someone's screenplay, for instance, or voice, likeness, or creative work contributes to an AI system or its output, what rights do that per... Does that person retain? Do they know how their work is being used? Can they opt out? Can they identify when AI materially contributed to something? And there's one more thing I wanted to elaborate is that I strongly support tracking displacement. But I would encourage New York to stop at counting the jobs AI eliminates. We should also be measuring whether New Yorkers are being prepared for the jobs that AI creates. AI literacy...", "text_unedited": "Hi. Thank you so much. I have written remarks, but I'm gonna read them out loud and I can send them later. But thank you, speaker Menon and members of the council. My name is Tony Tye Serrat. I'm a filmmaker, educator, and founder of Cinepartner, an AI powered platform for storytellers. Now I'm probably coming to this conversation from a slightly different perspective because I build with AI, I teach people about AI, and I work with creative communities that are simultaneously excited about this technology and very concerned about what it can mean for their livelihoods, their work, and their agency. So we believe that we need guardrails, which is we... Something where we've been hearing all day. Right? But I also believe that the goal should be responsible innovation, not regulation that unintentionally makes it possible for only the largest companies to build an AI. When we create compliance requirements, I would encourage the council to not to not only ask, will this make AI safer, but also who will be able to afford to comply? Because if responsible AI development requires an expensive validation regimen... I mean, sorry, regime that only trillion dollar technology companies can navigate, we may inadvertently consolidate AI development and the very companies we're trying to hold accountable. And for creative communities, safety isn't only just about whether a model can be shut down. It's also about consent, authorship, provenance, compensation, and transparency. So if someone's screenplay, for instance, or voice, likeness, or creative work contributes to an AI system or its output, what rights do that per... Does that person retain? Do they know how their work is being used? Can they opt out? Can they identify when AI materially contributed to something? And there's one more thing I wanted to elaborate is that I strongly support tracking displacement. But I would encourage New York to stop at counting the jobs AI eliminates. We should also be measuring whether New Yorkers are being prepared for the the jobs that AI creates. AI literacy..." }, { "turn_id": 805, "start_sec": 35344.504, "end_sec": 35345.547, "start_hms": "09:49:04", "end_hms": "09:49:05", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "His time has expired.", "text_unedited": "His time has expired." }, { "turn_id": 806, "start_sec": 35346.36, "end_sec": 35347.562, "start_hms": "09:49:06", "end_hms": "09:49:07", "speaker_name": "Tony Tye Serrat", "speaker_role": "Witness — Cinepartner", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 67, "text_clean": "Oh, okay.", "text_unedited": "Oh, okay." }, { "turn_id": 807, "start_sec": 35347.8, "end_sec": 35368.254, "start_hms": "09:49:07", "end_hms": "09:49:28", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. And please be sure to send us the written copy so we can review it. Thank you so much. So where do I send it again? I didn't hear that. Testimony@council.nyc.gov. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Up next, Travis Hall. If you're online, please unmute yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you for your testimony. And please be sure to send us the written copy so we can review it. Thank you so much. So where do I send it again? I didn't hear that. Testimony@council.nyc.gov. Okay. Thank you. Thank you. Up next, Travis Hall. If you're online, please unmute yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 808, "start_sec": 35374.336, "end_sec": 35375.137, "start_hms": "09:49:34", "end_hms": "09:49:35", "speaker_name": "Committee Counsel", "speaker_role": "Committee Counsel", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "You may begin.", "text_unedited": "You may begin." }, { "turn_id": 809, "start_sec": 35377.95, "end_sec": 35491.918, "start_hms": "09:49:37", "end_hms": "09:51:31", "speaker_name": "Travis Hall", "speaker_role": "Witness — Center for Democracy and Technology", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 92, "text_clean": "Alright. Thank you so much. Can you hear me? Yes. My name is my name is Dr. Travis Hall. I represent the Center for Democracy and Technology, a thirty year old organization dedicated to digital rights and civil liberties online. And today, I would love to talk to you a little bit about the range of issues that you're covering. I really appreciate the hearing. I want specifically to talk about third party auditing. We appreciate the effort to put in place third party auditing requirements. They not only will help to deal with catastrophic risks, but the range of risks that you... That people face from artificial intelligence. However, as we've seen with LL one forty four, if there are not additional mechanisms in place to incentivize, the use and, consequences for these audits, they end up turning, into being somewhat useless. So we want to see, meaningful independence, independent, interdisciplinary skills. There are a lot of, regulatory agencies already covering many of these risks, and they can be drawn on, not just technical skills. Don't just simply, audit the models, thinking about auditing, and assessing systems and use cases. Make sure that you cover a broader scale of harms. We heard a lot today about catastrophic harms, but we're already seeing little catastrophe... Little catastrophes everywhere. When people lose their benefits or their jobs, those are catastrophes. Make sure to incentivize. Incentives are a... Commensurate to protections and assess... And, for example, making sure that assessments don't entrench powerful actors. Also, independent, evaluation only really works as one piece in a broader accountability network. So thank you very much for your time. Would love to engage with the council on, this and other issues.", "text_unedited": "Alright. Thank you so much. Can you hear me? Yes. My name is my name is doctor Travis Hall. I represent the Center for Democracy and Technology, a thirty year old organization dedicated to digital rights and civil liberties online. And today, I would love to talk to you a little bit about the range of issues that you're covering. I really appreciate the hearing. I want specifically to talk about third party auditing. We appreciate the effort to put in place third party auditing requirements. They not not only will help to deal with catastrophic risks, but the range of risks that you... That people face from artificial intelligence. However, as we've seen with LL one forty four, if there are not additional mechanisms in place to incentivize, the use and, consequences for these audits, they end up turning, into being somewhat useless. So we wanna see, meaningful independence, independent, interdisciplinary skills. There are a lot of, regulatory agencies already covering many of these risks, and they can be drawn on, not just technical skills. Don't just simply, audit the the models, thinking about auditing, and assessing systems and use cases. Make sure that you cover a broader scale of harms. We heard a lot today about catastrophic harms, but we're already seeing little catastrophe... Little catastrophes everywhere. When people lose their benefits or their jobs, those are catastrophes. Make sure to incentivize. Incentives are a a... Commensurate to protections and assess... And, for example, making sure that assessments don't entrench powerful actors. Also, independent, evaluation only really works as one piece in a broader accountability network. So thank you very much for your time. Would love to engage with the council on, this and other issues." }, { "turn_id": 810, "start_sec": 35493.438, "end_sec": 35502.72, "start_hms": "09:51:33", "end_hms": "09:51:42", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "And thank you so much. Up next, we have Danielle Marie Chappies. If you're online, if you could just unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "And thank you so much. Up next, we have Danielle Marie Chappies. If you're online, if you could just unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 811, "start_sec": 35512.344, "end_sec": 35523.633, "start_hms": "09:51:52", "end_hms": "09:52:03", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Daniel Marie Chappius. Alright. We'll go on to Michelle Barnaby. If you're online, please unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "Daniel Marie Chappius. Alright. We'll go on to Michelle Barnaby. If you're online, please unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 812, "start_sec": 35527.55, "end_sec": 35657.34, "start_hms": "09:52:07", "end_hms": "09:54:17", "speaker_name": "Michelle Barnaby", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 1, "text_clean": "My name is Michelle Barnaby. I'm a New York City nurse, a Columbia graduate, and a foreman... Former NISNA member. Out of concern for the future of patient care and public health, I now study AI governance and safety with Blue Dot Impact. Today, not one of the major labs, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, or Meta could quantify the risk of catastrophic AI failure. In health care, informed consent would apply. We disclose the risk and the patient decides. I can't imagine handing a patient a drug or a device and saying this may carry a catastrophic risk to you or your family's life, and we just don't know, but you should take it. Right now, the public is the patient, and we are being denied the right to know the risks and the right to say no. Speaker Menin rightly noted that we don't ask the airline industry to self regulate. In hospitals, we report our errors, even the near misses. AI companies face no such mandate. When you ask, if these Frontier Labs bear legal responsibility for the harm their AI causes, only Google answered clearly. The other three dodged. As a nurse whose entire profession is built on accountability, I find that deeply unserious. Today, I heard the lab say voluntary frameworks aren't enough. We can learn from what happened in Illinois where third party audits won't begin until 2028. We don't have time for slow implementation. I think New York can show that government can move with speed that this demands, diagnose the problem, and put safeguards in place quickly. Let's give these frontier labs the regulations they say they want at a speed that makes sense for New Yorkers. Independent third party audits before deployment, including algorithmic bias, mandatory reporting for incidents and near misses, a required override switch, whistleblowers, and clear development... Developer liability for harm. Thank you so much. You", "text_unedited": "My name is Michelle Barnaby. I'm a New York City nurse, a Columbia graduate, and a foreman... Former NISNA member. Out of concern for the future of patient care and public health, I now study AI governance and safety with Blue Dot Impact. Today, not one of the major labs, Anthropic, OpenAI, Google, or Meta could quantify the risk of catastrophic AI failure. In health care, informed consent would apply. We disclose the risk and the patient decides. I can't imagine handing a patient a drug or a device and saying this may carry a catastrophic risk to you or your family's life, and we just don't know, but you should take it. Right now, the public is the patient, and we are being denied the right to know the risks and the right to say no. Speaker Menon rightly noted that we don't ask the airline industry to self regulate. In hospitals, we report our errors, even the near misses. AI companies face no such mandate. When you ask, if these Frontier Labs bear legal responsibility for the harm their AI causes, only Google answered clearly. The other three dodged. As a nurse whose entire profession is built on accountability, I find that deeply unserious. Today, I heard the lab say voluntary frameworks aren't enough. We can learn from what happened in Illinois where third party audits won't begin until 2028. We don't have time for slow implementation. I think New York can show that government can move with speed that this demands, diagnose the problem, and put safeguards in place quickly. Let's give these frontier labs the regulations they say they want at a speed that makes sense for New Yorkers. Independent third party audits before deployment, including algorithmic bias, mandatory reporting for incidents and near misses, a required override switch, whistleblowers, and clear development... Developer liability for harm. Thank you so much. You" }, { "turn_id": 813, "start_sec": 35657.742, "end_sec": 35670.535, "start_hms": "09:54:17", "end_hms": "09:54:30", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Robert Cappell. Robert, if you're on, unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Robert Cappell. Robert, if you're on, unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 814, "start_sec": 35678.535, "end_sec": 35687.75, "start_hms": "09:54:38", "end_hms": "09:54:47", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. I'm going to call Dan... Daniel Marie Chappius again. If you're online and you can hear us, unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "Okay. I'm gonna call Dan... Daniel Marie Chappius again. If you're online and you can hear us, unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 815, "start_sec": 35695.707, "end_sec": 35702.906, "start_hms": "09:54:55", "end_hms": "09:55:02", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. Moving on. We will call on Patrick Sullivan. Patrick, if you can hear us, unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "Okay. Moving on. We will call on Patrick Sullivan. Patrick, if you can hear us, unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 816, "start_sec": 35712.48, "end_sec": 35717.76, "start_hms": "09:55:12", "end_hms": "09:55:17", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "We'll move on. Tony Jones, if you're on and can hear us, unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "We'll move on. Tony Jones, if you're on and can hear us, unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 817, "start_sec": 35720.242, "end_sec": 35851.13, "start_hms": "09:55:20", "end_hms": "09:57:31", "speaker_name": "Tony Jones", "speaker_role": "Witness — Creative AI Academy / Pratt Institute", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 5, "text_clean": "Hello. I'm here. Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody... Or good evening, everybody. Thank you very much. I'm Tony Jones. I'm a Brooklyn resident and cofounder of Creative AI Academy, a training company and instructor of AI design at the Pratt Institute. I'm hopeful and heartened by the panelists' testimonies today and the intention of these committees on this crucial moment. While I support the strong regulation of companies building Frontier AI, I... And I see the proposed amendments aimed to address this, I'm here about the other half of the problem, the person at the keyboard. The harm most New Yorkers will meet first comes from someone using the tool already in market. Today, anyone with an email address can clone a voice, fabricate a photo of a real person, or write a convincing scam in minutes. The tool asks nothing from them first, no training, no acknowledgment of risk, no promise of responsibility. We regulate carmakers, and we also require every driver to follow the rules of the road. In my classroom, every student writes and signs a personal AI constitution, a short statement of how they will and will not use the tools that I'm teaching them to use. I propose the city ask the same of its citizens in the form of simpler than a license. First, a short free city provided safety training taken once before a person can open an account and an AI tool of a certain, defined level of capability. Second, assigned user constitution, plain language commitment to use the AI honestly with no harm, language which users may incorporate into the account level personalization of the instructions that... Of the AI products they use as well as a second safety measure. The signature will not stop the determined criminal and neither does a driver's license. It simply sets a baseline for the millions of ordinary users who want to do right and have never been told what that means. As a first step, I asked the council to start where its authority is clear, require this training and the signed constitution for city employees who use AI on the job or AI vendors that contract with the city, then maybe we can press Albany for a statewide standard and set the standard for the rest of the country as well. Thank you very much for your consideration. I know that we can regulate the labs, but I asked that we ask something of the rest of us as well. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Up next, Asata", "text_unedited": "Hello. I'm here. Thank you. Good afternoon, everybody... Or good evening, everybody. Thank you very much. I'm Tony Jones. I'm a Brooklyn resident and cofounder of Creative AI Academy, a training company and instructor of AI design at the Pratt Institute. I'm hopeful and heartened by the panelists' testimonies today and the intention of these committees on this crucial moment. While I support the strong regulation of companies building Frontier AI, I... And I see the proposed amendments aimed to address this, I'm here about the other half of the problem, the person at the keyboard. The harm most New Yorkers will meet first comes from someone using the tool already in market. Today, anyone with an email address can clone a voice, fabricate a photo of a real person, or write a convincing scam in minutes. The tool asks nothing from them first, no training, no acknowledgment of risk, no promise of responsibility. We regulate carmakers, and we also require every driver to follow the rules of the road. In my classroom, every student writes and signs a personal AI constitution, a short statement of how they will and will not use the tools that I'm teaching them to use. I propose the city ask the same of its citizens in the form of simpler than a license. First, a short free city provided safety training taken once before a person can open an account and an AI tool of a certain, defined level of capability. Second, assigned user constitution, plain language commitment commitment to use the AI honestly with no harm, language which users may incorporate into the account level personalization of the instructions that... Of the AI products they use as well as a second safety measure. The signature will not stop the determined criminal and neither does a driver's license. It simply sets a baseline for the millions of ordinary users who want to do right and have never been told what that means. As a first step, I asked the council to start where its authority is clear, require this training and the signed constitution for city employees who use AI on the job or AI vendors that contract with the city, then maybe we can press Albany for a statewide standard and set the standard for the rest of the country as well. Thank you very much for your consideration. I know that we can regulate the labs, but I asked that we ask something of the rest of us as well. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. Up next, Asata" }, { "turn_id": 818, "start_sec": 35851.13, "end_sec": 35982.555, "start_hms": "09:57:31", "end_hms": "09:59:42", "speaker_name": "Isata Kamara", "speaker_role": "Witness — Global Subnational Diplomacy Council", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Kamara, if you're on, please unmute and begin. Thank you so much, Madam Speaker and members of the council. My name is Isata Kamara, and I am the founder and the president of the Global Subnational Diplomacy Council. I previously served as New York City's commissioner for international affairs and had the pleasure of serving the city for more than a decade. I come to this testimony because artificial intelligence is something that all cities are thinking about, including New York. And we know that AI can obviously help cities reduce their paperwork, improve infrastructure, and planning, and make services more accessible. However, we also know that AI has the potential to deepen inequalities and threaten livelihoods. So we are offering four recommendations and are willing to work with city council in order to support the work that you're doing. First, we would like to ensure that we're connecting workforce reporting to paid training, by also consulting with workers and unions and providing opportunities for advancement accordingly. We are also asking that we do more to protect democracies as we know that artificial intelligence is a great tool for spreading misinformation and disinformation. We specifically are asking for more support to ensure that residents have access to reliable public information that is verified and that they understand, the different issues and decisions that are being made by government in a clearer way. When you look around the world, there are great cities that are doing this work, including Helsinki and others, and we ask the city council to connect with those cities to learn from their experiences as well. As I've mentioned, we believe that artificial intelligence could be a tool for good if it is managed carefully. Also share the concern that other speakers have", "text_unedited": "Kamara, if you're on, please unmute and begin. Thank you so much, madam speaker and members of the council. My name is Isata Kamara, and I am the founder and the president of the Global Subnational Diplomacy Council. I previously served as New York City's commissioner for international affairs and had the pleasure of serving the city for more than a decade. I come to this testimony because artificial intelligence is something that all cities are thinking about, including New York. And we know that AI can obviously help cities reduce their paperwork, improve infrastructure, and and planning, and make services more accessible. However, we also know that AI has the potential to deepen inequalities and threaten livelihoods. So we are offering four recommendations and are willing to work with city council in order to support the work that you're doing. First, we would like to ensure that we're connecting workforce reporting to paid training, by also consulting with workers and unions and providing opportunities for advancement accordingly. We are also asking that we do more to protect democracies as we know that artificial intelligence is a great tool for spreading misinformation and disinformation. We specifically are asking for more support to ensure that residents have access to reliable public information that is verified and that they understand, the different issues and decisions that are being made by government in a clearer way. When you look around the world, there are great cities that are doing this work, including Helsinki and others, and we ask the city council to connect with those cities to learn from their experiences as well. As I've mentioned, we believe that artificial intelligence could be a tool for good if it is managed carefully. Also share the concern that other speakers have" }, { "turn_id": 819, "start_sec": 35982.797, "end_sec": 35983.594, "start_hms": "09:59:42", "end_hms": "09:59:43", "speaker_name": "Isata Kamara", "speaker_role": "Witness — Global Subnational Diplomacy Council", "confidence": "low", "deepgram_cluster": 33, "text_clean": "shared the", "text_unedited": "shared the" }, { "turn_id": 820, "start_sec": 35984.156, "end_sec": 35990.395, "start_hms": "09:59:44", "end_hms": "09:59:50", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, I'll call Ashley Youssef.", "text_unedited": "Oh, thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, I'll call Ashley Youssef." }, { "turn_id": 821, "start_sec": 35994.44, "end_sec": 36117.77, "start_hms": "09:59:54", "end_hms": "10:01:57", "speaker_name": "Ashley Youssef", "speaker_role": "Witness — Trina AI", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 93, "text_clean": "Thank you, Speaker Menin, and members of the council for the opportunity to speak. My name is Ashley Youssef. I am a native New Yorker, a mother of four living in Michigan, and a leader of Trina AI. I am developing Room 2050, an immersive arts and technology learning environment where students can explore creativity through hands on experience with art, robotics, and artificial intelligence. The vision is to put human imagination, curiosity, and judgment at the center of that experience. As a mother, I want children to have opportunities to understand the technology shaping their futures. I want families to know who is responsible when those technologies enter a learning environment. My position is that access and accountability must move together. Children deserve opportunities to innovate, and they deserve meaningful protection. For Room 2050, the standards I am proposing include educator supervision, age appropriate tools, clear communication with parents, and strict limits on the collection and use of student information. Any use of student data to train commercial AI systems should require explicit, informed parental, permission. Students should learn that AI can make mistakes, reflect bias, and produce convincing information that is false. They should practice questioning its answers and developing their own ideas no matter what part of the city or The United States they are from to help support emerging talent, which are... A human emerging talent. I support a gradual rollout beginning with supervised experiences and expanding only after evaluating safety, educational value, and feedback from teachers and families and the council. I ask the council to pursue clear standards that schools can understand and enforce, including transparency from technology providers and practical ways to report problems and stop using unsafe systems. Educators and parents should have a meaningful voice in these decisions. That's what Toreen and...... Time's expired.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker Menon, and members of the council for the opportunity to speak. My name is Ashley Youssef. I am a native New Yorker, a mother of four living in Michigan, and a leader of Trina AI. I am developing Room 2050, an immersive arts and technology learning environment where students can explore creativity through hands on experience with art, robotics, and artificial intelligence. The vision is to put human imagination, curiosity, and judgment at the center of that experience. As a mother, I want children to have opportunities to understand the technology shaping their futures. I want families to know who is responsible when those technologies enter a learning environment. My position is that access and accountability must move together. Children deserve opportunities to innovate, and they deserve meaningful protection. For Room 2050, the standards I am proposing include educator supervision, age appropriate tools, clear communication with parents, and strict limits on the collection and use of student information. Any use of student data to train commercial AI systems should require explicit, informed parental, permission. Students should learn that AI can make mistakes, reflect bias, and produce convincing information that is false. They should practice questioning its answers and developing their own ideas no matter what part of the city or The United States they are from to help support emerging talent, which are... A human emerging talent. I support a gradual rollout beginning with supervised experiences and expanding only after evaluating safety, educational value, and feedback from teachers and families and the council. I ask the council to pursue clear standards that schools can understand and enforce, including transparency from technology providers and practical ways to report problems and stop using unsafe systems. Educators and parents should have a meaningful voice in these decisions. That's what Toreen and...... Time's expired." }, { "turn_id": 822, "start_sec": 36118.766, "end_sec": 36129.406, "start_hms": "10:01:58", "end_hms": "10:02:09", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we will call on Naved Hassan. Naved, if you're online, please unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you. Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we will call on Naved Hassan. Naved, if you're online, please unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 823, "start_sec": 36132.04, "end_sec": 36250.793, "start_hms": "10:02:12", "end_hms": "10:04:10", "speaker_name": "Naveed Hassan", "speaker_role": "Witness — Panel for Educational Policy", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 70, "text_clean": "Thank you, Speaker Menin, technology committee Chair De La Rosa and city council for holding this critical hearing. My name is Naveed Hassan, and I'm the parent of two public school children and also the elected Manhattan member on the panel for educational policy. My academic and professional background is in symbolic, pregenerative AI and computer vision. We are in an unfortunate situation in technology policy for generative AI with two prominent camps, the accelerationists appeal to a desire for imminent utopia and the effect of altruists spending their time in, in code, panic. Neither extreme greed nor extreme fear are beneficial framing for sober thinking around how to manage developing advanced technologies. New Yorkers need prosocial technology governance with tech expertise in public offices not being rushed to build hundreds of hyperscale data centers, or putting only those very companies in the room when writing rules in a way that lets them achieve regulatory capture. This morning, none of the Gen AI companies could answer a simple question. What do you consider is the risk of your service causing catastrophe to humanity? This is because it is antithetical to their business desire to push an inherently probabilistic product to be used in all aspects of work, to make any such estimates. When a job demands deterministic certainty, this whole model will eventually fear... Fail for sure. We must not allow the spread of an unfit for purpose technology to be misused so broadly. There's bipartisan interest in not just regulating Gen AI, but also pulling into the public realm broadband and wireless connectivity, abusive algorithmic targeting, illegal surveillance, vendor lock in, interoperability mandates, open standards, open source software infrastructure, and more. We have the opportunity now to think about what municipal tech policy should look like for the good of everyone living in New York. We have the ability already to enforce existing rules around antitrust, concentration of risk, controlled goods rules being applied to compute hardware. Let us calmly and expeditiously use skilled public servants to build a future with beneficial technology available for all of society. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Thank you, speaker Menon, technology committee chair Della Rosa and city council for holding this critical hearing. My name is Naveed Hassan, and I'm the parent of two public school children and also the elected Manhattan member on the panel for educational policy. My academic and professional background is in symbolic, pregenerative AI and computer vision. We are in an unfortunate situation in technology policy for generative AI with two prominent camps, the accelerationists appeal to a desire for imminent utopia and the effect of altruists spending their time in, in code, panic. Neither extreme greed nor extreme fear are beneficial framing for sober thinking around how to manage developing advanced technologies. New Yorkers need prosocial technology governance with tech expertise in public offices not being rushed to build hundreds of hyperscale data centers, or putting only those very companies in the room when writing rules in a way that lets them achieve regulatory capture. This morning, none of the Gen AI companies could answer a simple question. What do you consider is the risk of your service causing catastrophe to humanity? This is because it is antithetical to their business desire to push an inherently probabilistic product to be used in all aspects of work, to make any such estimates. When a job demands deterministic certainty, this whole model will eventually fear... Fail for sure. We must not allow the spread of an unfit for purpose technology to be misused so broadly. There's bipartisan interest in not just regulating Gen AI, but also pulling into the public realm broadband and wireless connectivity, abusive algorithmic targeting, illegal surveillance, vendor lock in, interoperability mandates, open standards, open source software infrastructure, and more. We have the opportunity now to think about what municipal tech policy should look like for the good of everyone living in New York. We have the ability already to enforce existing rules around antitrust, concentration of risk, controlled goods rules being applied to compute hardware. Let us calmly and expeditiously use skilled public servants to build a future with beneficial technology available for all of society. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 824, "start_sec": 36251.43, "end_sec": 36259.715, "start_hms": "10:04:11", "end_hms": "10:04:19", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Nadira Pittman. Nadira, if you are on, please unmute and begin.", "text_unedited": "Thank you so much for your testimony. Up next, we have Nadira Pittman. Nadira, if you are on, please unmute and begin." }, { "turn_id": 825, "start_sec": 36264.35, "end_sec": 36265.152, "start_hms": "10:04:24", "end_hms": "10:04:25", "speaker_name": "Nadira Pittman", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 94, "text_clean": "Hello?", "text_unedited": "Hello?" }, { "turn_id": 826, "start_sec": 36265.793, "end_sec": 36267.633, "start_hms": "10:04:25", "end_hms": "10:04:27", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Yes. Please begin your testimony. Hi.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Please begin your testimony. Hi." }, { "turn_id": 827, "start_sec": 36268.434, "end_sec": 36395.78, "start_hms": "10:04:28", "end_hms": "10:06:35", "speaker_name": "Nadira Pittman", "speaker_role": "Witness — public", "confidence": "high", "deepgram_cluster": 94, "text_clean": "Yes. Okay. So my name is Nadira Pittman. I am 41 years old, a Queens resident. I am actually reaching out regarding a testimony that I have. I am actually a survivor of the AI attacks. I'm dealing with facial recognition, illegal surveillance. I'm also dealing with constructed voice recordings of close family friends. They're gathering it and creating a job. Like, far as the job, they're using their voices against me. It's on the... If I'm on the buses, on the trains, it's continuous. It's a continuous basis nonstop. I have been filing reports... Police reports. I've been trying to get this attack off of me. I'm not sure why it seems to be inputted and okay. It's also in various agencies where it's allowed to be used against other individuals, where people are afraid now of even showing their faces on the... On public transportation. It... It's really, really getting out of hand, and the attacks are extreme. It's very dangerous at this point. I... It's to the point where you can't go anywhere and feel safe now because of this technology. So I'm reaching out. I have sent numerous reports. I have reached out and wrote letters to you guys to try to get this off of me because it... It's something that it... It's unnecessary. It's not... I'm not a criminal. I don't do anything illegal. I... There's no reason why the... Who put this on me? Why is this... Why am I being attacked in this manner? I've came up there personally, and I informed you guys last year... Your time has expired. You so much for your time. I appreciate your time. I would prefer someone reach out to me as soon as possible.... So much. Thank you.", "text_unedited": "Yes. Okay. So my name is Nadira Pittman. I am 41 years old, a Queens resident. I am actually reaching out regarding a testimony that I have. I am actually a survivor of the AI attacks. I'm dealing with facial recognition, illegal surveillance. I'm also dealing with, like, constructed voice recordings of close family friends. They're gathering it and and creating a job. Like, far as the job, they're using their voices against me. It's on the... If I'm on the buses, on the trains, it's continuous. It's a continuous basis nonstop. I have been filing reports... Police reports. I've been trying to, you know, get this attack off of me. I'm not sure why it it it seems to be inputted and okay. It's also in various agencies where it's allowed to be used against other individuals, where people are afraid now of even showing their faces on the... On public transportation. It... It's it's really, really getting out of hand, and the attacks are are extreme. It's very dangerous at this point. You know, I I... It's it's to the point where you can't go anywhere and feel safe now because of of of this technology. So I'm reaching out. I have sent numerous reports. I have reached out and wrote letters to you guys to try to get this off of me because it it... It's it's something that it it... It's it's unnecessary. It's not... I'm not a criminal. I don't do anything illegal. I... There's no reason why the... Who put this on me? Why is this... Why am I being attacked in this manner? You know, I've came up there personally, and I informed you guys last year... Your time has expired. You so much for your time. I appreciate your time. I would prefer someone reach out to me as soon as possible.... So much. Thank you." }, { "turn_id": 828, "start_sec": 36396.1, "end_sec": 36403.465, "start_hms": "10:06:36", "end_hms": "10:06:43", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Up next, we have Lori Lomask. If you're on, please, unmute yourself and begin.", "text_unedited": "Up next, we have Lori Lomask. If you're on, please, unmute yourself and begin." }, { "turn_id": 829, "start_sec": 36412.527, "end_sec": 36488.098, "start_hms": "10:06:52", "end_hms": "10:08:08", "speaker_name": "Carmen De La Rosa", "speaker_role": "Council Member", "confidence": "medium", "deepgram_cluster": 2, "text_clean": "Okay. We'll move on to Steve Cerre. Cerre? Not that Cerre. Steve Cerre, c e r e. Just go through the list. They probably know why. Tan... Tanbir Chaudhry, if you're on. No. Catherine Jin. No. Zachary Thompson? No. Christopher Leon Johnson? No. Raj Sharof? Alright. Those are all the names that we have for today. I want to thank everyone who took time out of their day today to testify, to bring your suggestions, to bring your questions, and to bring a partnership with the council. I want to thank Speaker Menin for her leadership and to my colleagues, the last lady standing, council members Maloney and Hanif, thank you for staying till the very end. And to all the staff who made this possible, thank you all for this important hearing, and we are adjourned.", "text_unedited": "Okay. We'll move on to Steve Cerre. Cerre? Not that Cerre. Steve Cerre, c e r e. Just go through the list. They probably know why. Tan... Tanbir Chaudhry, if you're on. No. Catherine Jin. No. Zachary Thompson? No. Christopher Leon Johnson? No. Raj Sharof? Alright. Those are all the names that we have for today. I wanna thank everyone who took time out of their day today to testify, to bring your suggestions, to bring your questions, and to bring a partnership with the council. I wanna thank speaker Menon for her leadership and to my colleagues, the last lady standing, council members Maloney and Hanif, thank you for staying till the very end. And to all the staff who made this possible, thank you all for this important hearing, and we are adjourned." } ]